LDS As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings.

[Jane_Doe]

Yes. You understood correctly.

Thank you for answering.

Now, how to you relate a person having the ability to CHOOSE to accept or reject God's gift of salvation with "irresistible" grace?

 

[Rescued One]

No, prayer is not a work. His children LOVE to talk to Him. Atheists certainly don't!

 

[Rescued One]

I'm going to tell you this as a person who's been through horrible childhood sexual abuse--

I don't doubt what you've been through and I'm sorry.

God loves EACH and EVERYONE of His children equally.

Per Mormonism, He doesn't treat them equally.

There are hard and horrible things in this world, some of which are the product of people's actions and not. The monster whom hurt me was also the product of childhood sexual abuse-- a victim traumatized as a preschooler. I could have continued cycle of abuse could have easily continued with me, hurting more and more little kids-- that would have been the easy and natural path.

But a person is NOT an animal to just be acted upon: rather we are children a Father in Heaven and His greatest gifts to us are 1) our ability to choose, and 2) his enabling power. The Father offered the same grace and help to both me and the monster that hurt me. The monster CHOOSE to follow the path of his earthly father and hence became what he is, rejecting Christ. I CHOOSE to follow the path of my Heavenly Father, and His power shattered the chains of darkness the monster tried to encage me in.

What causes a person to make right choices?

God's power conquers all, for all whom would invite Him in. It does not matter whatever crappy situations earthly life dealt you-- it's nothing to the power of God. You just need to open the door and welcome His embrace-- He's knocking there, for every single person.

God opened the door for me!

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Romans 9:16

 

[Ironhold]

Did you really just say that God's love is manifest in how successful and easy someone's life is?

That's straight-up prosperity gospel there.

 

[Rescued One]

Salvation/eternal life is a gift of God.

Romans 6
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Monetary wealth is not necessary to happiness.

 

[Rescued One]

Did you really just say that God's love is manifest in how successful and easy someone's life is?

That's straight-up prosperity gospel there.

Do you disagree with God that childhood training is commanded?

"If we are to instill faith in our children, they must see us demonstrate our faith in their young lives. They must see us on our knees daily, asking the Lord for His blessings and expressing our gratitude unto Him. They need to see us using our priesthood to administer to those in need, and to bless our children. They need to see us reverently worshiping in our sacrament meetings. They need to see us cheerfully and willingly giving of our time and talents to the building of the Lord’s kingdom here on earth. They need to see us proving our faith by the payment of our tithes and offerings to Him. They need to see us diligently studying and discussing the scriptures to increase our faith and understanding."
L. Tom Perry, Train Up a Child, General Conference, April 1983
Train Up a Child - L. Tom Perry

 

[Jane_Doe]

[Staff edit].

What causes a person to make right choices?

No one (least of all God) makes you make choice X. God didn't make my abuser be an abuser, or me turn away from that path-- just like Christ didn't die for just one of us. He loves us both equally, died for both of us, and knocks on both of our doors. God didn't make my abuser to Him away-- that was the monster's choice. Just like He didn't force me to accept Him.

 

[BigDaddy4]

The point was that it was stated that God made those men do what they did.

You said..........
"Did Nebuchadnezzar have a choice, or did God "rape" him of his freewill and turn him into a wild animal-like being until he acknowledged and glorified God??"

The answer is YES, he had a choice just as did the others.

Both Neb and Jonah chose not to follow God. God acted anyway and punished them for their disobedience. Then they changed their minds. They still had freedom of choice??

 

[twin.spin]

But a person is NOT an animal to just be acted upon: rather we are children a Father in Heaven and His greatest gifts to us are 1) our ability to choose, and 2) his enabling power. The Father offered the same grace and help to both me and the monster that hurt me. .

Mormonism's "plan of salvation": 1) "agency" and 2) "grace"
Mormonism "plan of salvation" is works righteousness:

1. Agency: "our ability to choose",
2. Grace: "his enabling power."

1) Agency: "our ability to choose"

A person's free will and natural capacity to choose right from wrong.

"Your Heavenly Father has given you agency, the ability to choose and to act for yourself.
Agency is essential in the plan of salvation. Without agency, we would not be able to learn or progress or follow the Savior" (True to the Faith, p. 12).​

God revealed no such truth in the Bible as "agency"
Biblical Christianity teaches that people by nature, are spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1) and thoroughly evil (Genesis 8:21). Therefore, no one can seek God or do any good (Romans 3:10-12).
_____________________________________________________________________

2) Grace: "his enabling power."

The power God gives people to save themselves, which he grants only after they have done everything they can do.

“This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts” (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).​

“… we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23).​

God revealed no such truth in the Bible as Mormonism's understanding of "grace" after expended own efforts \ all we can do.

Biblical Christianity teaches that grace is God’s unbelievable love for us.
The preeminent example of this love is Jesus’ doing everything to save us.
He kept the law perfectly for us. He died as payment for all our sins.
It is by grace alone we are saved (Ephesians 2:8-9).

​

​

 

[Major1]

Both Neb and Jonah chose not to follow God. God acted anyway and punished them for their disobedience. Then they changed their minds. They still had freedom of choice??

YES!

Jonah was told to go and preach and he had the free will to do it or not to do it.
He then did what he wanted to do and if that is not free will choices what is it.
However, when he disobeyed the Word of God he was shown that in the end God's will was right and he did not change his mind as much as he recognized how wrong he was and then did what he should have done in the 1st place.

Jonah went through the stages of disobedience....rebellion, punishment repentance and then obedience. How is that any different than what we to today???

 

[Rescued One]

Mormonism's "plan of salvation": 1) "agency" and 2) "grace"
Mormonism "plan of salvation" is works righteousness:

1. Agency: "our ability to choose",
2. Grace: "his enabling power."

1) Agency: "our ability to choose"

A person's free will and natural capacity to choose right from wrong.

"Your Heavenly Father has given you agency, the ability to choose and to act for yourself.
Agency is essential in the plan of salvation. Without agency, we would not be able to learn or progress or follow the Savior" (True to the Faith, p. 12).​

God revealed no such truth in the Bible as "agency"
Biblical Christianity teaches that people by nature, are spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1) and thoroughly evil (Genesis 8:21). Therefore, no one can seek God or do any good (Romans 3:10-12).
_____________________________________________________________________

2) Grace: "his enabling power."

The power God gives people to save themselves, which he grants only after they have done everything they can do.

“This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts” (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).
“… we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23).​

God revealed no such truth in the Bible as Mormonism's understanding of "grace" after expended own efforts \ all we can do.

Biblical Christianity teaches that grace is God’s unbelievable love for us.
The preeminent example of this love is Jesus’ doing everything to save us.
He kept the law perfectly for us. He died as payment for all our sins.
It is by grace alone we are saved (Ephesians 2:8-9).

You're teaching TRUTH very plainly and in a marvelous way! All glory goes to God!

 

[twin.spin]

You're teaching TRUTH very plainly and in a marvelous way! All glory goes to God!

Thank God for showing you Biblical understanding of grace and salvation.

 

[Ironhold]

Do you disagree with God that childhood training is commanded?

How are you getting from A to B here?

I'm talking about the fact that you're preaching prosperity gospel, and you're off on something unrelated.

 

[dzheremi]

Does anyone have any position here that they can put forward that isn't "works righteousness vs. being forced"? It seems like you're all talking past each other because of that dichotomy, which both sides reject that they're doing.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Does anyone have any position here that they can put forward that isn't "works righteousness vs. being forced"? It seems like you're all talking past each other because of that dichotomy, which both sides reject that they're doing.

The question at hand is whether a person must choose to accept Christ, or do they have no choice in the matter. It's not really talking about works righteousness at all.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Biblical Christianity teaches that people by nature, are spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1) and thoroughly evil (Genesis 8:21). Therefore, no one can seek God or do any good (Romans 3:10-12).

Rapists deny a person choice and force themselves upon another person.
The fact that you're claiming God does likewise... I'm sorry, that goes against EVERY thing in the Bible. Such claims are repulsive.

Love is a choice. Love does not exist without choice.

 

[dzheremi]

The question at hand is whether a person must choose to accept Christ, or do they have no choice in the matter. It's not really talking about works righteousness at all.

Yeah, but other people are talking about that. That's why I asked if anyone had any other way of approaching this question that doesn't degenerate into these two poles being against one another.

It doesn't seem to me that there's anything to discuss, as it is. If you do not believe in "irresistible grace", you are deemed to be teaching "works righteousness", while if you do believe in "irresistible grace", you are deemed to be robbing man of his choice. The end.

 

[Rescued One]

Thank God for showing you Biblical understanding of grace and salvation.

 

[twin.spin]

opps

 

[Major1]

[Staff edit].

I believe totally in mans freewill of choice so please do not misunderstand my questions..

But Let me see if I got this right.

Some are saying that if God does not allow men to have freewill then that is equal to a man raping a woman?

But rape is not about choices or freewill at all. What person make a freewill choice to be raped????? Rape is all about POWER.