LDS As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings.

[Jane_Doe]

I believe totally in mans freewill of choice so please do not misunderstand my questions..

Yes, I acknowledge that. Thank you for explaining your views so well and answering my questions. This comment was addressed to another view.

But Let me see if I got this right.

Some are saying that if God does not allow men to have freewill then that is equal to a man raping a woman?

But rape is not about choices or freewill at all. What person make a freewill choice to be raped????? Rape is all about POWER.

Thank you for not saying it's about pain (that's a crazy common misconception).

In rape, a person forcefully pushes their will upon another person, denying them consent as the other person does what they want.
There are some viewpoints that believe God doesn't care/need man's consent and forcefully uses his power to have a person be saved or other things. In doing so there is no difference between him and a rapist.

 

[Major1]

Yes, I acknowledge that. Thank you for explaining your views so well and answering my questions. This comment was addressed to another view.

Thank you for not saying it's about pain (that's a crazy common misconception).

In rape, a person forcefully pushes their will upon another person, denying them consent as the other person does what they want.
There are some viewpoints that believe God doesn't care/need man's consent and forcefully uses his power to have a person be saved or other things. In doing so there is no difference between him and a rapist.

I understand that. But in that thinking, again, what part of rape is there a freedom to choose one way or the other?

God does not force Himself onto anyone but instead He calls ALL people to be saved. Some do and some don't, but God knew who would and who wouldn't.

Lets say that in your back yard you have 10 turtles. You go out this afternoon and and CALL out to all 10 and say ......"I am going to teach ALL of you to fly today".

Nine of the ten say......NOPE. We are not interested. We like it right here in your back yard. We are comfortable and happy and we are staying right here.

But then ONE turtle says......"YES, I would like to fly"!

They were ALL CALLED but THAT is the ONE who was called and chose to believe YOU and that is the ONE who is taught to fly.

Now that has nothing to do with the other NINE turtles. They are turtles because they are turtles. The LOST then are lost because they LIKE IT THAT WAY. NO ONE is forced or raped to be lost any more than the saved are raped to be saved.

The lost are lost because they have chosen to be lost.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I understand that. But in that thinking, again, what part of rape is there a freedom to choose one way or the other?

God does not force Himself onto anyone but instead He calls ALL people to be saved. Some do and some don't, but God knew who would and who wouldn't.

Lets say that in your back yard you have 10 turtles. You go out this afternoon and and CALL out to all 10 and say ......"I am going to teach ALL of you to fly today".

Nine of the ten say......NOPE. We are not interested. We like it right here in your back yard. We are comfortable and happy and we are staying right here.

But then ONE turtle says......"YES, I would like to fly"!

They were ALL CALLED but THAT is the ONE who was called and chose to believe YOU and that is the ONE who is taught to fly.

Now that has nothing to do with the other NINE turtles. They are turtles because they are turtles. The LOST then are lost because they LIKE IT THAT WAY. NO ONE is forced or raped to be lost any more than the saved are raped to be saved.

The lost are lost because they have chosen to be lost.

I 100% agree with you here (as do all LDS). However, some other Christian viewpoints do not.

 

[Major1]

I 100% agree with you here (as do all LDS). However, some other Christian viewpoints do not.

Excellent.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Excellent.

Hey Major1, earlier you said you believe in "irresistible" grace. Would you mind elaborating on your beliefs there, and how it works with a person ability to affect/refuse Christ's gift of salvation?

 

[twin.spin]

I understand that. But in that thinking, again, what part of rape is there a freedom to choose one way or the other?

God does not force Himself onto anyone but instead He calls ALL people to be saved. Some do and some don't, but God knew who would and who wouldn't.

Lets say that in your back yard you have 10 turtles. You go out this afternoon and and CALL out to all 10 and say ......"I am going to teach ALL of you to fly today".

Nine of the ten say......NOPE. We are not interested. We like it right here in your back yard. We are comfortable and happy and we are staying right here.

But then ONE turtle says......"YES, I would like to fly"!
code for
They were ALL CALLED but THAT is the ONE who was called and chose to believe YOU and that is the ONE who is taught to fly.

Now that has nothing to do with the other NINE turtles. They are turtles because they are turtles. The LOST then are lost because they LIKE IT THAT WAY. NO ONE is forced or raped to be lost any more than the saved are raped to be saved.

The lost are lost because they have chosen to be lost.

I'm sure you understand the reason why Mormon's are proselytizing "free will". It's because it comes back to "agency" ... it is one of the most important underpinnings for Mormonism's gospel plan of salvation.

"Agency is essential in the plan of salvation. Without agency, we would not be able to learn or progress or follow the Savior" (True to the Faith, p. 12). ​

That is why it's imperative to contend for Biblical Christianity which God revealed that humanity lost it's ability to choose and so by nature the best we choose is evil\filthy rags:

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.​

 

[Ironhold]

I'm sure you understand the reason why Mormon's are proselytizing "free will". It's because it comes back to "agency" ... it is one of the most important underpinnings for Mormonism's gospel plan of salvation.

"Agency is essential in the plan of salvation. Without agency, we would not be able to learn or progress or follow the Savior" (True to the Faith, p. 12). ​

That is why it's imperative to contend for Biblical Christianity which God revealed that humanity lost it's ability to choose and so by nature the best we choose is evil\filthy rags:

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.​

Are you saying that free will is a bad thing?

 

[twin.spin]

Are you saying that free will is a bad thing?

As Mormonism understands it (True to the Faith, p. 12) ... Yes because God revealed Galatians 1:8-9.

Biblical Christianity teaches that people by nature, are spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1) and thoroughly evil (Genesis 8:21). Therefore, no one can seek God or do any good (Romans 3:10-12).

Jesus confirming what God revealed in Psalm 53

God looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.

Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.​

when he revealed the words spoken in John 3:6 \ Matthew 15:18-20.

​

 

[Jane_Doe]

As Mormonism understands it

This discussion isn't remotely LDS-specific. You should be able to explain your beliefs without any references to what you think someone else believes.

 

[dzheremi]

That's the a bit silly. If twin.spin's point is how the LDS view differs from his own interpretation of the matter from scripture, then of course it's LDS-specific. How could it be otherwise?

 

[Jane_Doe]

That's the a bit silly. If twin.spin's point is how the LDS view differs from his own interpretation of the matter from scripture, then of course it's LDS-specific. How could it be otherwise?

Because LDS are a very small proportion of the population that believe man has free will and salvation is a gift God offers to all. This thread has shown multiple folks from non-LDS groups which believe that.

 

[dzheremi]

Yes, but as I and surely others have attempted to show, it is likewise common that Christians can both agree that man has free will (in the sense of being able to choose, not in a "everyone do what you want" sort of way) and disagree with that which those who are seemingly arguing against free will are also disagreeing with in Mormon soteriology, namely that we are saved by God's grace "after all that we can do".

I would never, ever, ever say such a thing, just as I would never, ever, ever say many of the things about mankind and our ability to choose as have been said by other Christians in this thread. That's why I've tried to point out that both poles in this thread are wrong, as it's not a matter of "force" vs. "irresistible grace".

It's a matter of Christ being the Savior, not what we can or cannot do.

"O the only begotten Son, God the Word, Who loved us and because of his love He wanted to save us from eternal damnation; but since death was in the way of our salvation, He yearned to go through it because of His love for us. And so, He was raised on the cross to carry the punishment of our sins..."*

^^^ This, and not any man-focused soteriology, is the only thing to be safely affirmed.

(* From the fraction prayers of the Coptic Orthodox Church, usually generically called "A fraction to the Son for anytime", as it can be said at any point during the regular days of the Church calendar.)

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yes, but as I and surely others have attempted to show, it is likewise common that Christians can both agree that man has free will (in the sense of being able to choose, not in a "everyone do what you want" sort of way) and disagree with that which those who are seemingly arguing against free will are also disagreeing with in Mormon soteriology

We LDS folks here are still trying to cross the first bridge of talking about folks belief on whether or not a person even has free will. Until understanding on that is reaching, trying to move further is silly. Note: I said understanding, not agreement.

 

[dzheremi]

But then I would say just as you said to twin.spin: you should be able to articulate your own belief without making things about what others believe, right?

If others don't believe in free will, then why can you not just say "given Mormon belief in free will (which is XYZ), we further believe that..."?

It's just like our discussion of the Holy Trinity in the past: With due respect for your intellects, Mormons clearly do not understand the terminology being used and the very basic concepts that underlie this theology, but I can still articulate them. And if there are questions following that, I can answer those. "Moving further" is a bit of a nebulous idea in any case, as you must meet people where they are, not where you would like them to be (with regard to understanding whatever piece of theology you are teaching, as they may not ever understand it as you would, since after all it's not theirs to begin with).

 

[Jane_Doe]

But then I would say just as you said to twin.spin: you should be able to articulate your own belief without making things about what others believe, right?

Which is exactly what I have been doing repeatedly here.

Never have I gone and said "Lutherans believe ____" or "Copts believe ______".

 

[Rescued One]

[Staff edit].

Do LDS honor God's free will or is He forced to bless everyone if they obey a certain LDS law?

Doctrine and Covenants 82
10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

Mormonism teaches that every blessing requires obedience by a human first.

Doctrine and Covenants 130
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Doctrine and Covenants 25
15 Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.

 

[dzheremi]

Does the concept of free will apply to God in either LDS or Christian theology?

What would God's will need to be 'free' from in order to do whatever He does?

 

[Major1]

I'm sure you understand the reason why Mormon's are proselytizing "free will". It's because it comes back to "agency" ... it is one of the most important underpinnings for Mormonism's gospel plan of salvation.

"Agency is essential in the plan of salvation. Without agency, we would not be able to learn or progress or follow the Savior" (True to the Faith, p. 12). ​

That is why it's imperative to contend for Biblical Christianity which God revealed that humanity lost it's ability to choose and so by nature the best we choose is evil\filthy rags:

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.​

Yes and thank you for the comment!

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yes and thank you for the comment!

Time out here: from where I'm understanding yours and twin.spin views are complete opposites. Going back to your turtle analogy from earlier: you believe all the turtles are offered to fly by God and some accept it-- intrinsic acknowledgement of free will.

Versus twin.spin's stance which is essentially "turtles all despise flying by nature and the only way any of them fly is because someone plucked some of them out and grew wings on them-- all without their consent."-- intrinsic use of force.

Where am I misunderstanding?

 

[Major1]

Hey Major1, earlier you said you believe in "irresistible" grace. Would you mind elaborating on your beliefs there, and how it works with a person ability to affect/refuse Christ's gift of salvation?

Thank you for asking.

“Irresistible grace” is a phrase that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit in the salvation of sinners. It is represented by the “I” in the acronym TULIP that is commonly used to enumerate what are known as the five points of Calvinism or the doctrines of grace.

Now don't let that scare you. I am not a "Calvinist".

John 6:37-40........
"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Some people call this "Election and some Predestination but what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the nature and purpose of the work of the Holy Spirit in the salvation of sinful, spiritually dead men. No matter which name you use to refer to the doctrine of irresistible grace, a thorough study of the Bible will reveal that, when properly understood, it is an accurate description of what the Bible teaches on this important subject.

Simply put, the doctrine of irresistible grace refers to the biblical truth that whatever God decrees to happen will inevitably come to pass, even in the salvation of individuals. The Holy Spirit will work in the lives of the elect so that they inevitably will come to faith in Christ.

To understand the doctrine of “irresistible grace,” it is important to recognize that this is a special grace given only to those God has chosen for salvation (His elect) and is different from what is known as “common grace” which God bestows on both believer and unbeliever. While there are many aspects of common grace, including life and all that is necessary to sustain it, common grace is what is often referred to as the “outward call of God.”

This is God’s revelation of Himself given to all men through the light of creation and their consciences. It also includes the general call of the gospel that goes out anytime the gospel message is preached. This call can be resisted and rejected by those that receive it. (Matthew 22:14; Romans 1:18-32). However, God also gives an “inward call” which always results in salvation. This is the call of God that Jesus spoke of in John 6:37-47. The certainty of this inward call is seen in John 6:37: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.” John 6:44 confirms this: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up at the last day.”

I hope that answers the "Turtle" debate.

Sorry for the LONG answer!!!