As It Was In The Days Of Sodom...

[EnemyPartyII]

Because it makes no sense that the sins of those cities and the other cities in the plain was gang rape of angels. How many angel tourists do you think they received? No, clearly, the sin in question was rampant homosexuality.

Why? Because gang rape is specifically mentioned and rampant homosexuality isn't?

Thats... unusual logic

 

[Brennin]

Why? Because gang rape is specifically mentioned and rampant homosexuality isn't?

Thats... unusual logic

What is mentioned is the desire of the men of the town to have sex with angels whom they believe are mortal men. That is (male) homosexuality.

 

[KCKID]

Because it makes no sense that the sins of those cities and the other cities in the plain was gang rape of angels. How many angel tourists do you think they received? No, clearly, the sin in question was rampant homosexuality.

Hmmm . . .you're obviously not a Bible scholar, Brennin. Both Jesus (Matthew 10:14-15; Mark 6:11; Luke 10:8-12) and Ezekiel (Ezekiel 16:49) are quite clear about what the sin of Sodom was ...and it sure was not homosexuality. What you believe is purely a mainstream Christian construct that has become so popular over the years that people really believe it to be true.

Please, check out the scriptures I gave and see if you're ready and willing to ditch this Christian 'myth'.

 

[Brennin]

Hmmm . . .you're obviously not a Bible scholar, Brennin. Both Jesus (Matthew 10:14-15; Mark 6:11; Luke 10:8-12) and Ezekiel (Ezekiel 16:49) are quite clear about what the sin of Sodom was ...and it sure was not homosexuality. What you believe is purely a mainstream Christian construct that has become so popular over the years that people really believe it to be true.

Please, check out the scriptures I gave and see if you're ready and willing to ditch this Christian 'myth'.

I am more of a Bible scholar than you.

Jude
Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

As for the verses from the Synoptic Gospels you cited, they say nothing about the sin of Sodom being 'inhospitality.' As Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown rightly note:

15. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable--more bearable.
for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city--Those Cities of the Plain, which were given to the flames for their loathsome impurities, shall be treated as less criminal, we are here taught, than those places which, though morally respectable, reject the Gospel message and affront those that bear it.

Do not waste my time with such inanity.

 

[KCKID]

I am more of a Bible scholar than you.

You don't even know me.

Jude
Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Wishful thinking for you. It says nothing about homosexuality. It says nothing about Lot and the 'incident' with the angels. You also choose Jude and ignore what Jesus and Ezekiel have to say about it. Also, between you and me, I believe the story of Sodom & Gomorrah to have been a myth. Can you prove that they ever existed?

As for the verses from the Synoptic Gospels you cited, they say nothing about the sin of Sodom being 'inhospitality.' As Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown rightly note:

15. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable--more bearable.
for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city--Those Cities of the Plain, which were given to the flames for their loathsome impurities, shall be treated as less criminal, we are here taught, than those places which, though morally respectable, reject the Gospel message and affront those that bear it.

Sure, the 'myth' of Sodom & Gommorah demonstrates that God gets angry enough to destroy if He deems it necessary and THAT is basically what the moral of the story is. SIN and NOT homosexuality was the reason God supposedly destroyed these cities. To destroy the cities had been God's plan BEFORE the story of Lot and the angels. The 'homosexual' part of the tale is little more than a Christian 'beat up'.

Jesus and Ezekiel more than imply that 'inhospitality' WAS the reason for the destruction of the twin cities.

Do not waste my time with such inanity.

And, please ...don't talk to me like that. I'm your equal ...Okay?

 

[Dogbean]

To destroy the cities had been God's plan BEFORE the story of Lot and the angels. The 'homosexual' part of the tale is little more than a Christian 'beat up'.

How can that be, when Genesis was written thousands of years before Christ, before there were Christians?

 

[Brennin]

You don't even know me.

I know your lack of scholarship.

Wishful thinking for you. It says nothing about homosexuality. It says nothing about Lot and the 'incident' with the angels. You also choose Jude and ignore what Jesus and Ezekiel have to say about it. Also, between you and me, I believe the story of Sodom & Gomorrah to have been a myth. Can you prove that they ever existed?

Yes, it does. Read it again. (Repeatedly, if necessary.) And it does not matter if it is a 'myth.' Myths can be used to illustrate points just as surely as historical events.

Sure, the 'myth' of Sodom & Gommorah demonstrates that God gets angry enough to destroy if He deems it necessary and THAT is basically what the moral of the story is. SIN and NOT homosexuality was the reason God supposedly destroyed these cities. To destroy the cities had been God's plan BEFORE the story of Lot and the angels. The 'homosexual' part of the tale is little more than a Christian 'beat up'.

You are not a Bible scholar. The cities were guilty of rampant homosexuality and the incident with the angels only serves to confirm their gross homosexual debauchery.

Jesus and Ezekiel more than imply that 'inhospitality' WAS the reason for the destruction of the twin cities.

Ezekiel mentions inhospitality; Jesus does not.

And, please ...don't talk to me like that. I'm your equal ...Okay?

You set the tone.

 

[Brennin]

How can that be, when Genesis was written thousands of years before Christ, before there were Christians?

Apparently, he thinks he has some special insight into this matter. However, when I studied the Hebrew Scriptures/Old Testament with a secular Jew, we used the text The Bible As It Was by James Kugel, and when he addresses Sodom and Gomorrah he notes that the charge of gross homosexual debauchery has just as good of a pedigree as the charge of inhospitality. (The people of Sodom certainly were inhospitable, too, but that is in addition to, not instead of, the charge of sexual immorality.)

 

[brightmorningstar]

To KCKID,

Hmmm . . .you're obviously not a Bible scholar, Brennin. Both Jesus (Matthew 10:14-15; Mark 6:11; Luke 10:8-12) and Ezekiel (Ezekiel 16:49) are quite clear about what the sin of Sodom was ...and it sure was not homosexuality. What you believe is purely a mainstream Christian construct that has become so popular over the years that people really believe it to be true.

Please, check out the scriptures I gave and see if you're ready and willing to ditch this Christian 'myth'.

Your refusal or blindness with what Genesis 19 itself says, along with 2 Peter 2 and Jude 1 would be similar to us saying that Ezekiel shows what the sin of Sodom was and sure it was not hospitality… in other words rank denial. You dont want ot address or admit the verses and words we point you to because they incrminate homosexual practice. Of course Ezekiel 16 refers to inhospitality and so does Matt 10, Mark 6 and Luke 10, but Ezekiel 16 also refers to pride, greed and idleness, but it also in 16:50 refers to abominations as in Leviticus 18:22, a man shall not lie with another man as with a woman, that is an abominatuon. (tow`ebah) do you see that?

 

[KCKID]

To destroy the cities had been God's plan BEFORE the story of Lot and the angels. The 'homosexual' part of the tale is little more than a Christian 'beat up'.

`
​

How can that be, when Genesis was written thousands of years before Christ, before there were Christians?

I'm referring to modern-day Christianity.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To KCKID,

I'm referring to modern-day Christianity

No you arent, modern day Christianity knows that Genesis was written thousands of years before Christ and before there were Christians. We know Christ refered to Genesis, not least God's creation union of man and woman (Gen 2, Matt 19, Eph 5, 1 Cor 7 etc) but also of the particular same sex immorailty outside that. (1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1) Without any references I would question what your concept of 'modern-day Christianity' is

 

[KCKID]

I know your lack of scholarship.

How can you possibly know my scholarship ...?

Yes, it does. Read it again. (Repeatedly, if necessary.) And it does not matter if it is a 'myth.' Myths can be used to illustrate points just as surely as historical events.

I've read it again and again many times. By the way, I absolutely agree with you that myths might contain many truths through illustration.

You are not a Bible scholar. The cities were guilty of rampant homosexuality and the incident with the angels only serves to confirm their gross homosexual debauchery.

'...serves to confirm their gross homosexual debauchery' ...? You're making this up as you go. Come on, play fair. We're not told WHAT type of debauchery and sexual shananigans were going on in those times. It could have included promiscuous homosexuality but we are not told that. Most of the sexual 'sins' found ANYWHERE in the Bible are of a heterosexual nature. The problem today is that whenever sexual sins are spoken of in the Bible most people are conditioned to immediately think 'homosexuality'. The sexual sins of Sodom would likely have been predominantly those of a heterosexual nature.

Ezekiel mentions inhospitality; Jesus does not.

Well, here's Matthew 10:14-15 and the words of Jesus. "If anyone will not welcome you (the disciples) or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town."

That sure seems to equate inhospitality with Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To KCKID,
The pro-gay argument only accepts the sins of Sodom as anything other than homosexual practice. Matthew 10's reference to inhospitaliy doesnt mean all the other sins werent sins, otherwise all the other references would be inaccurate. No, the sins of Sodom were many (Genesis 13:13) and included sexual immorailty (2 Peter 2, Jude 1, Jeremiah 23, Ezekiel 16, and as in the account in Genesis 19) as well as inhospitality Matthew 10, Mark 6 Luke 10. We see all of it, you only see any of it that doesn't incriminate homosexual unions.

 

[KCKID]

To KCKID,
No you arent, modern day Christianity knows that Genesis was written thousands of years before Christ and before there were Christians.

What ARE you talking about, bms? Of course Christians know that Genesis was written thousands of years before Christ. It's just that MODERN Christians have given Sodom and Gomorrah a 'homosexual' slant that was not previously intended. S&G have nothing to do with homosexuality per se. As previously mentioned, it's just a MODERN Christian 'beat up'.

We know Christ refered to Genesis, not least God's creation union of man and woman (Gen 2, Matt 19, Eph 5, 1 Cor 7 etc) but also of the particular same sex immorailty outside that. (1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1) Without any references I would question what your concept of 'modern-day Christianity' is

Try to get it in your head, bms, that human beings are NOT programmed robots that are driven by every letter of the Bible. I realize that you don't like that idea but it's true. Furthermore, we were never MEANT to swallow the scriptures in order for our thoughts and actions to function. The Bible is simply meant as a guide. To put it simply, the union of man and woman was intended for mating purposes. We all agree with that. And that's very nice. People have done a very good job mating and producing babies to the point that we're pretty well over-run with them in many countries.

Now, surprise, surprise ...we have people who are attracted to whoever they are attracted to ...NOT necessarily for mating purposes but just because they like and feel comfortable with one another. Hey, that's just as nice! What they might get up to in their bedrooms is none of our business, nor should it be. I don't EVER want to entertain the thought that my minister and his wife might ...well, I don't want to entertain the thought. Why should we begrudge people from loving whoever they might love just because we seem to come across some ancient texts that appear to support our OWN particular phobias? I hit the nail on the head, didn't I, bms? I would suggest that you personally don't like homosexuality and it's become an obsession with you. So you use the 'clout' texts to make YOU feel good. I'm right, aren't I?

By the way, Christ never breathed a word about homosexuality. Why do you keep insisting that He DID as if the more times you say it somehow makes it so? He didn't ...okay?

Incidently, my concept of 'modern-day' Christianity is 'present-day' Christianity. I would say that Christianity in its present and typical form is a far cry from early Christianity. I would say that many - even most - haven't a clue WHAT they believe. They just follow the crowd.
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KCKID has spoken.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To KCKID

What ARE you talking about, bms? Of course Christians know that Genesis was written thousands of years before Christ. It's just that MODERN Christians have given Sodom and Gomorrah a 'homosexual' slant that was not previously intended.

What are you talking about, Christians have always seen the text says the men wanted sex with men. … in modern terms that’s homosexual, not heterosexual.

Try to get it in your head, bms, that human beings are NOT programmed robots that are driven by every letter of the Bible.

That’s irrelevant as I agree we are not programmed robots we can choose to believe or disbelieve You haven’t addressed my point because it destroys your argument. We know Christ refered to Genesis, not least God's creation union of man and woman (Gen 2, Matt 19, Eph 5, 1 Cor 7 etc) but also of the particular same sex immorailty outside that. (1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1) If God’s creation purpose was Adam and Eve it wasn’t Adam and Steve. There is no man/man marriage countenanced in the Bible and there is direct condemnation of homosexual unions, so as a guide, as Romans says, people are without excuse.

Now, surprise, surprise ...we have people who are attracted to whoever they are attracted to ...NOT necessarily for mating purposes but just because they like and feel comfortable with one another.

Yes but that’s an irrelevant generalisation as adulterers and a paedophiles are attracted to people but it doesn’t make what they do right either, adultery and paedohilia are, like homosexual practice, outside faithful man/woman marriage.

What they might get up to in their bedrooms is none of our business, nor should it be.

That’s not a Christian view, for the Christian knows that God sees what we do in secret, Romans 2:16, 1 Cor 14:25, 2 Corinthians 4:2, Ephesians 5:12.

Why should we begrudge people from loving whoever they might love just because we seem to come across some ancient texts that appear to support our OWN particular phobias?

Well because we believe they are the word of God even if you don’t, and before I believed, I used to think homosexual practice was ok, so your assumption is totally wrong and the wrong way round, I never had a phobia, I just came to believe the truth of God’s word.

By the way, Christ never breathed a word about homosexuality. Why do you keep insisting that He DID as if the more times you say it somehow makes it so? He didn't ...okay?

What are you talking about, of course He did, Jesus Christ’s NT teaching excludes homosexual practice and unions as in Matthew 19, Mark 10, Ephesians 5 as God’s purpose was man and woman, offers celibacy as the alternative Matt 19, 1 Cor 7, and condemns same sex activities, 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2, and Jude 1.

Incidently, my concept of 'modern-day' Christianity is 'present-day' Christianity.

It was your views as Christian I was asking you about as they are baseless, not the era of the baselessness. Men committing indecent lustful acts with men is homosexual rather than heterosexual isn’t it. Yes or no?

 

[Dogbean]

I'm referring to modern-day Christianity.

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Same God of Genesis and today.

 

[KCKID]

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Same God of Genesis and today.

It's not God that I'm talking about. It's people and their interpretations of the scriptures that I'm talking about. I would like someone who might know the time in history when Sodom and Gomorrah became equated with homosexuality to post this information on the forum. When the story was authored I'm confident that it would never have been intended to make a case against homosexuality. People (MODERN-DAY Christianity) has done this.

By the way, I know it's a popular Christian catch-cry that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. But a catch-cry is all it is. If you really feel that, Dogbean, then start keeping the 4th-commandment this coming weekend because the chances are that you DON'T keep it and never HAVE kept it. It is/was a command from the God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

 

[pgp_protector]

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Same God of Genesis and today.

So Did God Approve of Incest When He Designed is so Adam & Eve and their Children Had No Others To Have Offspring with ?

 

[Dogbean]

It's not God that I'm talking about. It's people and their interpretations of the scriptures that I'm talking about. I would like someone who might know the time in history when Sodom and Gomorrah became equated with homosexuality to post this information on the forum. When the story was authored I'm confident that it would never have been intended to make a case against homosexuality. People (MODERN-DAY Christianity) has done this.

Prove this. Post reliable sources.

By the way, I know it's a popular Christian catch-cry that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. But a catch-cry is all it is.

It's not a "catch cry." It's Scripture.

 

[KCKID]

Prove this. Post reliable sources.

I can prove very little from the Bible. Can you?

It's not a "catch cry." It's Scripture.

It's a catch-cry of Christians. They say this with regular monotony but then ignore commands such as the one I gave. I doubt that you'll be keeping the Sabbath this weekend which the God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever initiated for 'man' at Creation. By the way, it starts Friday sundown and ends Saturday sundown. You must do it right as long as you take God at His word ...