As far as signs, what qualifies?

[ShaggyFlasko]

This is a post to discuss the criteria necessary to establish a circumstance or event as a "sign of the times". So far, it seems that everything is a sign of the times, just so long as some scripture can be quoted for it (no matter how vague or out of context it is).

So, I think this is important. What's the criteria, in your minds, for establishing an event as a "sign of the times"? What's the criteria for that "sign" being "fulfilled"?

Discuss.

God bless.
-Bill

 

[HUBIE]

My criteria is that Jesus said that the troubles would be like never before seen, nor never will be again.

Some of what is going on now with weather and other natural phenomena could be the birth pangs. And it could be the natural order of things just currently at a cyclical high.

I haven't seen any of the signs in the heaven's that we are to look for either.

I think the most prevelant prophecy coming to fullfillment right now is an Apostacy of the Church. You also have to consider the parable of the olive tree. Jesus said that the generation would not pass after the olive tree blooms before he would come again. Most believe this was in reference to Israel. That was 1948. How long is a generation? It's been 57 years so far, if you hold that as the intrepretation of this parable, we can't be that far away.

Regardless of our ability to intrepret what is happening, I love the way John ended Revelation. "Even so Lord Jesus, come."

Amen to that!

 

[OttawaUk]

"Even so Lord Jesus, come."

Exactly. It may be iteresting to point out signs and such, but John was right on with that.

 

[Dispy]

My criteria is that Jesus said that the troubles would be like never before seen, nor never will be again.

Some of what is going on now with weather and other natural phenomena could be the birth pangs. And it could be the natural order of things just currently at a cyclical high.

I haven't seen any of the signs in the heaven's that we are to look for either.

I think the most prevelant prophecy coming to fullfillment right now is an Apostacy of the Church. You also have to consider the parable of the olive tree. Jesus said that the generation would not pass after the olive tree blooms before he would come again. Most believe this was in reference to Israel. That was 1948. How long is a generation? It's been 57 years so far, if you hold that as the intrepretation of this parable, we can't be that far away.

Regardless of our ability to intrepret what is happening, I love the way John ended Revelation. "Even so Lord Jesus, come."

Amen to that!

If you are referring to the "end time" of prophesy, we will not see any of them during this dispensation of grace.

The prophetic timeclock stopped when God set the nation of Israel aside, and raised up Saul/Paul to usher in this dispensation of grace in which we now live.

However, I will say that things are happening today which will lead to the fulfillment of prophesy. The prophetic timeclock will again start AFTER the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[good4u]

Well, a big sign to look for is a sign marking the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel where the covenant of death is signed between Israel and the Anti-Christ. Not a bad sign to start with wouldn't you say?

 

[ShaggyFlasko]

Some of this is off topic, but...

Jesus said that the generation would not pass after the olive tree blooms before he would come again.

Reread Matthew 24:32-34. Actually, he told his disciples to compare the fulfillment of the signs to the blooming of fig tree, that when it happened they would know the time was near. He said that "this generation shall not pass before all these things are fulfilled."

As for the signs, I was not speaking of them directly, but of the criteria needed to classify certain events as "signs of the end".

Main Entry: cri·te·ri·on
Pronunciation: krI-'tir-E-&n also kr&-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural cri·te·ria http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?criter02.wav=criteria') /-E-&/; also -ri·ons
Etymology: Greek kritErion, from krinein to judge, decide -- more at [size=-1]CERTAIN[/size]
1 : a standard on which a judgment or decision may be based
2 : a characterizing mark or trait

Again, I wasn't talking about the signs themselves or whether we're living in the end times or whether we'll even see the signs. What criteria do you use to establish something as a "sign of the times"? When you read the newspaper and see the headlines, to what does it have to conform to count as a fulfillment of a "sign of the times"?

Is there any criteria?

God bless.
-Bill

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

This is a post to discuss the criteria necessary to establish a circumstance or event as a "sign of the times". So far, it seems that everything is a sign of the times, just so long as some scripture can be quoted for it (no matter how vague or out of context it is).

So, I think this is important. What's the criteria, in your minds, for establishing an event as a "sign of the times"? What's the criteria for that "sign" being "fulfilled"?

Discuss.

God bless.
-Bill

All I have to say is, if you aren't seeing them right now, take those "shades" off . I also agree with good4u about the covenant being signed between Israel and the antichrist. I believe that is coming in the near future with what is going on over there right now.
HUBIE also stated that he hadn't seen the signs in the heavens yet. You have to know where to look, and read. We have had the worst solar flares in recorded history affecting our power grids in the northern hemisphere. It was so bad last month, that NASA warned the space station of possible radiation. Arizona was experiancing auroras in the sky from them. They also stated that it was uncommon for this time of year, and they were very surprised by these solar flares happening, and this intense.
How about this one....Luke 21:25 ~ And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; They have been roaring pretty good here lately. I like these next verses...Luke 21:26-27 ~ Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

 

[richardo]

This link lists the signs that may be signaling the Beginning of the Birth Pains -

last days mystery dot info

 

[whitestar]

Some of this is off topic, but...



Reread Matthew 24:32-34. Actually, he told his disciples to compare the fulfillment of the signs to the blooming of fig tree, that when it happened they would know the time was near. He said that "this generation shall not pass before all these things are fulfilled."

As for the signs, I was not speaking of them directly, but of the criteria needed to classify certain events as "signs of the end".

Main Entry: cri·te·ri·on
Pronunciation: krI-'tir-E-&n also kr&-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural cri·te·ria /-E-&/; also -ri·ons
Etymology: Greek kritErion, from krinein to judge, decide -- more at [size=-1]CERTAIN[/size]
1 : a standard on which a judgment or decision may be based
2 : a characterizing mark or trait

Again, I wasn't talking about the signs themselves or whether we're living in the end times or whether we'll even see the signs. What criteria do you use to establish something as a "sign of the times"? When you read the newspaper and see the headlines, to what does it have to conform to count as a fulfillment of a "sign of the times"?

Is there any criteria?

God bless.
-Bill

The only criteria I use that is worth anything is the bible...its the only thing we CAN rely on. I mean look at what people say all the time....it either doesn't happen at all, or they come up with a bunch of mumbo jumbo stuff...

My criteria is watch the world and see how it relates to the bible. There is literally never been anything going on in any time, that you couldn't refer back to the bible and see what was going on.

The sign of the times...young girls straving themselves to death to be skinny just so they look like an airbrushed model on the cover of a magazine or movie star....slicing and dicing yourself is a 'sign of the times'...STD all over the place due to people acting like dogs in heat and believe they cannot control 'their urges', blaming our childhood for being stupid and ending up in prison...following the lastest fads of wearing pants so low your underwear shows which in prison means you are ''available" by the way...babies slaughtered in legal clinics, drugs that cause major addiction the first time you try it and you can't get off....body piercing that just looking at makes you hurt, stress is the number one cause of heartattacks, money making IS the goal in life. making up your own religion..even your own Jesus to fit your needs, not what the bible actually says about Him.....these are what we all see every day.

And there ARE scriptures that fit these 'signs of the times'...

Isa 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
21
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
And clever in their own sight!


Mark 7:21-23
21For from within, out of a person's heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, eagerness for lustful pleasure, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. 23 All these vile things come from within; they are what defile you and make you unacceptable to God."

Luke 12:21
"Yes, a person is a fool to store up earthly wealth but not have a rich relationship with God."


<LI>Romans 1:21
Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused.
<LI>Romans 1:22
Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead.
I could go on and on but I would have half the bible on here...but I am too tired and its late. I do not for a minute believe everything has 'stopped' until the rapture of the church by any means. First I don't believe in this rapture idea that was never heard of until the 1800 anyway...second, God doesn't just stop with anything. He is a living God....patiently waiting on us to quit acting like a bunch of morons and get our act together and SIMPLY follow Him. And quietly still, drawing people to Him. In the end that is all that matters anyway...

God bless
Whitestar

 

[ShaggyFlasko]

So then, what I'm seeing is that everything that vaguely resembles something said in the Bible is a "sign of the times". It's all based on speculation, then, isn't it?

Sorry, that's not for me.

All I have to say is, if you aren't seeing them right now, take those "shades" off .

I have logic colored glasses. If I'm going to say something is a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy, I'm going to need solid exegesis and proof, not this kind of silly speculation that's been going on for a thousand years.

Nothing personal, but this looks pretty silly.

God bless.
-Bill

 

[whitestar]

So then, what I'm seeing is that everything that vaguely resembles something said in the Bible is a "sign of the times". It's all based on speculation, then, isn't it?

Sorry, that's not for me.



I have logic colored glasses. If I'm going to say something is a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy, I'm going to need solid exegesis and proof, not this kind of silly speculation that's been going on for a thousand years.

Nothing personal, but this looks pretty silly.

God bless.
-Bill

I guess I don't understand what you are looking for then....this fourm IS about the end times....things yet to come. I never said these things were propheties yet to be fulfilled....only human nature being exposed in the bible. You seemed to NOT want anything pointing to the end times so I tried to avoid that...even though this is what the fourm is about.

You said you wanted any scriptures, no matter how 'vague'...and now you insult me by saying I am silly? sorry I bothered answering you...

 

[ShaggyFlasko]

You seemed to NOT want anything pointing to the end times so I tried to avoid that...even though this is what the fourm is about.

On the contrary, that's exactly what I'm talking about. However, I'm looking at the process of interpreting prophecy, not individual prophecies and fulfillments.

You said you wanted any scriptures, no matter how 'vague'...and now you insult me by saying I am silly? sorry I bothered answering you...

I'm do apologize if you're insulted. Please don't be, because I'm not calling you silly (that would be most rude), but the methods of interpreting prophecy that I've seen here seem silly. There doesn't seem to be a clear process of examining these prophecies.

Btw, I actually said...

So far, it seems that everything is a sign of the times, just so long as some scripture can be quoted for it (no matter how vague or out of context it is).

I was trying to indicate a previous impression that people will use any scripture with any current event to say "it's a sign of the times!", regardless of how vague or out of context those verses are.

I was trying to find out how all these people go about establishing something as a "sign of the times". How do you correlate the scriptures with what you see in the world? What evidence is needed to link the two?

God bless.
-Bill

 

[Meriadoc]

Its the beginning of birth pangs as othe rposters stated. I think these disasters are nothing compared to what WILL happen. I would keep a close eye on Israel...But no fear if we have Jesus.

 

[listener]

But the OP is still wanting to know 'how do we know what we see is what we read'? It is sort of an epistemology of prophetic understanding........... I sometimes wonder if that is possible. I mean, we can establish rules for hermeneutics; but that can be a shallow reason, or is it...

 

[whitestar]

Ok I guess I got confused about what you were looking for....as you said here you wanted a definition of criteria...and said this:

Again, I wasn't talking about the signs themselves or whether we're living in the end times or whether we'll even see the signs. What criteria do you use to establish something as a "sign of the times"? When you read the newspaper and see the headlines, to what does it have to conform to count as a fulfillment of a "sign of the times"?

So I was focusing on answering you in what 'criteria' I used, but I thought you were not looking at the end times signs...so my bad on that...

I happen to agree with you on what I think you are saying here....I have been hearing people cry wolf all my life....birth pains, rapture about to happen any second, Jesus about to return. watch Israel, look at the wars, the earthquakes, etc...

In reality we have been in the end times since Jesus went back to Heaven so actually all of these 'signs' have always been going on...actually alot even before Jesus was ever born!!

I guess in looking for 'signs' it depends on what you think has yet to occur...also many ideas on that one! So depending on your view, depends on what you are looking for...Jesus did say we would know the 'season' of His return....not the excate date..but the season....He said it would be like in the days of Noah...people marrying, going on about their life...in another passage He says people will be saying 'peace', 'peace' and then destruction will come like a flood...

If you look at what God said back in Genesis about the people being SO wicked He was sorry He made them...and knowing He forgave Cain of murdering his brother Able, you know these people had to be extremely wicked. To the point that drowning the babies and children was better then living under the hands of such wicked parents... things had to be very very bad indeed....

Well just how bad do we have to be before God has had enough? In history we have seen people toutured in the most gruesome ways under the Roman Catholic Church to conver them....we have read the horror stories of what happened to the Jews in the concertration camps...now we read about the muslim government in a part of Africa slaughtering the Christians there....nailing men and even boys to crosses...forcing the children into slavery...changing their names to muslim names and making them woship Allah....the women are raped and also forced to woship Allah or be beated, maimed or killed. The slaugher of the American Indians...the slaugher of the Chinese Christians, beheaded for their faith in God. I am sure ALL of these groups thought they were in the tribulation and the end was surely here...but obviously it wasn't...

Back in Paul's day in the bible he was dealing with starting churches in places where horrible behavior was commonplace. Nero kicked his wife to death...a pregnant wife...Nero then took a slave boy, had his castrated and then 'married' him...Nero was the one that started the feeding Christians to the lions...hookers hung out around the temples, adultery and incest were no big deal. We have a fit over the idea of gay's marrying thinking, oh the end must be here! When actually, its not any worse then in Paul's day as far as sexual immoral behavior goes.

In many ways it seem the antichrist has always been among us killing us, we are only waiting for the wrath of God to be poured out now in the return of Jesus Christ.

Sure we could say things are getting worse, but actually in many ways things were worse at different points in human history! So I do not know how to gage that...I look more at what is happening with the earth and nature itself. I think maybe Jesus was simply saying its bad, its always been bad, and destruction of the wicked WILL come on like a flood....literally the 'season' has always been here.

Anyway, here is a link you can check out and see if this is what you are looking for. http://100prophecies.org/

The way I see it is like this...study the last week of Jesus' life...especially the last few days. One day He rides in on a donkey and everyone is happy, praising Him, loving Him...days later this same crowd is yelling for Him to be crucified...why? How did things change SO fast?

Well they really didn't...alot of things we working in the background in different areas to lead up to this event in the first place...then they suddenly all came together at once to the finally conclusion. That is what I see now...alot of things working in the background and have all through history and one day they will all merge together at all once.

About the only thing I am sure of is the way things are going with SO many Christians becoming 'liberal'...meaning picking and choosing what they want to believe in the bible...and so many falling for false teachings and even bible translations changing the wording in the bible...eventually no one will be a real Christian at all...not to mention our rights being slowly chipped away and us forced to accept immoral lifestyles...there will be no one truly saved without God actively working in their lives. We sure can't save ourselves! And we can't stop the flood of sin coming in...

I don't know how far God will let things go before He acts. It seems time is running out for all Christians everywhere.

God bless
Whitestar

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

So then, what I'm seeing is that everything that vaguely resembles something said in the Bible is a "sign of the times". It's all based on speculation, then, isn't it?

Sorry, that's not for me.



I have logic colored glasses. If I'm going to say something is a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy, I'm going to need solid exegesis and proof, not this kind of silly speculation that's been going on for a thousand years.

Nothing personal, but this looks pretty silly.

God bless.
-Bill

It's not speculation to me. If you are going to base "signs" on "logic", good luck. These signs aren't even logical to the human mind. People are to much into the logic, and not the Spiritual aspect. God is Spirit, and so are His signs which are in His Word. I compare Spirit with Spirit, Not logic with logic. Not all of us are Mr. Spock, where everything has to have a logical explaination. We can't even comprehend that God has always been, so how are people who think the way that you do going to understand signs? Good luck!!
1st Cor 2:12-14 ~ Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[listener]

Are you claiming an Apostolic revelation about the gospel itself? That is how Paul used those words in 1Cor. 2:12-14, and that is what the quote points to. This was his experience as an Apostle in constant, personal touch with the Lord. He is not talking about modern day prophetic understanding..............

 

[whitestar]

It's not speculation to me. If you are going to base "signs" on "logic", good luck. These signs aren't even logical to the human mind. People are to much into the logic, and not the Spiritual aspect. God is Spirit, and so are His signs which are in His Word. I compare Spirit with Spirit, Not logic with logic. Not all of us are Mr. Spock, where everything has to have a logical explaination. We can't even comprehend that God has always been, so how are people who think the way that you do going to understand signs? Good luck!!
1st Cor 2:12-14 ~ Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That is true to some extent, but I see God has being very logical....I never see God not making sense as in doing things in random at all. Alot of the bible is based on plain old common sense actually. At least that is how I see it.

God bless

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Are you claiming an Apostolic revelation about the gospel itself? That is how Paul used those words in 1Cor. 2:12-14, and that is what the quote points to. This was his experience as an Apostle in constant, personal touch with the Lord. He is not talking about modern day prophetic understanding..............

Let me ask you this? Are you a Christian? I am going to assume that you are. If you are a Christian, then you have the Spirit of the Living God living on the inside of you. He does talk through His Word, give impressions, and even that still small vice that will talk to you....just like Paul. I wouldn't say that I have been given Apostolic revelation, but I will say that God does talk, but people aren't listening evidently. I LISTEN. In this day and time, you don't even have to hear His voice, but the impression is quite strong that the whole creation is groaning to be redeemed. His Spirit will bare witness with our Spirits of the times that we are in. If people believe that things are just going to continue as always, then they are in for a big surprise. Nothing is ever going to be the same on this planet ever again. If that is Apostolic revelation, praise God, I'm honored!!

 

[ShaggyFlasko]

Nana, are you saying that spiritual things are illogical or unreasonable, subject only to some personal revelation? Our Lord is not a God of confusion.

If you're relying on God causing you to feel the truth, than your faith is no more than feelings, and feelings are fallible and errant. Do you see what I mean? God's word is the only reliable source of truth, and all our beliefs and faith should be derived from it.

Whitestar, God said that he wouldn't again curse the ground for man's sake. He used destruction to deal with sin in the Flood, but promised that it wouldn't happen again (Genesis 8). If he has to destroy the world to defeat sin, then what did Christ do? I have a hard time believing that the Church, the Body of Christ will be destroyed. Wickedness is not more powerful than the almighty God.

God bless.
-Bill