As a Wesleyan, how would you define a Christian?

[GraceSeeker]

I've posted this in several other parts of CF. I'm sure that some people probably think that I'm trolling. But I trust that you all here in my home community will know better. I'm not trolling nor seeking to be contentious. I'm genuinely curious to find out how this question might be similarly or differently addressed by various groups within Christendom. And, please, though I know that whole books could be written in response, try to distill your own answer down to a single sentence, such as might be used when designing a poll.


A Christian is _____________________.

 

[Mr Dave]

Good thread

As far as I'm aware the UMC doesn't have a catechism, is that right?
We Brits do, so I'll give you the relevant bits from there, I pretty much go along with it all.

"1. What is a Christian?
Christians are those who believe that God has revealed himself in Jesus Christ, accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, live in communion with God and in the power of the Holy Spirit, and take their place in the fellowship of Christ's Church.

1.
Acts 11:26
John 14:8-11
John 1:1-5, 14-18
Hebrews 1:1-3

2. What is a Christian's calling?
A Christian is called by God to trust and follow Jesus Christ; to keep company with him; to learn from his words and actions; and to share in his mission, in the power of the Holy Spirit, in company with all other Christians.

2.
Mark 1:16-20, 3:13-15
John 20:21-22
Acts 1:8"

I think it's important to say that it is more than just believing in that Jesus lived, was crucified and was resurrected for our sake (although this is vital), but that this causes an affect on the person to strive for a closer relationship with God, and to amend your life to visibly show honour and glory to God in all your actions.

 

[Mr Dave]

Sorry, just seen the bit about 'distill it to a single sentence"

A Christian is someone who believes in, whose life is positively impacted by, and whose life is centered around the life, death and resurrection of Christ, the second person of the Holy Trinity.

I think that pretty much condenses it into one sentence.

 

[Maid Marie]

A simple answer: A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ.

I can come up with a more developed answer if you need it.

 

[Chris81]

Luke 10:27

"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

 

[lucaspa]

I've posted this in several other parts of CF. I'm sure that some people probably think that I'm trolling. But I trust that you all here in my home community will know better. I'm not trolling nor seeking to be contentious. I'm genuinely curious to find out how this question might be similarly or differently addressed by various groups within Christendom. And, please, though I know that whole books could be written in response, try to distill your own answer down to a single sentence, such as might be used when designing a poll.


A Christian is _____________________.

Yep, you did post it in several threads. A Christian is someone who believes those beliefs stated in the Nicene and Apostle's Creeds.

"We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

"I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. AMEN."

 

[lucaspa]

Luke 10:27

"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Chris, you do realize that Jews qualify as Christians under this definition, right?

 

[GraceSeeker]

Yep, you did post it in several threads.

Well, I'll tell you why I've asked so many different groups. Then if someone from another community tries to check me on on trolling, you can refer them to my answer here.

I'm an active poster as part of a Muslim forum. And in that setting, they give you the option of listing yourself as Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist, Agnostic, or none. Thus not only are all manner of protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox grouped together, but those who are Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, and many other groups that I personally do not feel are part of the body of Christ all have the same moniker. This leads to some interesting, but in my opinion, erroneous presentations regarding Christian beliefs. I've given up on trying to educate that particular community on the differences -- some care and already know, the others don't care and even group Unitarians with Christians at the same time that they denounce Christianity because of shirk (associating others with God). As I said, it doesn't always make sense.

Anyway, what I did think I might do was to try to figure out what Muslims have in their mind when they use the term "Christian". I know they are going to be all over the place, because even among what I consider orthodox theology we Christians are ourselves all over the place. But I'm going to try to create a poll with some of these various responses and post it there to see which of our various views of ourselves they have with respect to us.

In the meantime, it is sort of interesting to see how the answers sometimes vary and sometimes are remarkably the same from one community to the next.

 

[Chris81]

Chris, you do realize that Jews qualify as Christians under this definition, right?

Yes, I thought a technically minded person such as yourself would pick up on the fact that Luke 10:27 is not really a definition of a Christian. Rather those who are Christians do love their God with all their heart, strength, and mind and love their neighbor as themselves.

A Christian is someone who out of the love for Christ follows him all the days of his/her life in abiding faith. A Christian takes the teachings of scripture to heart and serves Christ in all that he/she does to further the Kingdom of God on Earth.

 

[lucaspa]

Yes, I thought a technically minded person such as yourself would pick up on the fact that Luke 10:27 is not really a definition of a Christian. Rather those who are Christians do love their God with all their heart, strength, and mind and love their neighbor as themselves.

So you have what is called a necessary condition to be a Christian, but not a sufficient condition, because other religions can also have the same condition. (I would also argue about whether it is necessary, since I think you can be a Christian even if you can't love God with all your heart, strength, and mind, but let's do that later.)

So, let me be pedantic here a bit. When you make a definition you have to satisfy 2 criteria:
1. Sufficient conditions.
2. Necessary conditions.

The goal is to include everyone who are Christians and exclude everyone who is not.

A Christian is someone who out of the love for Christ follows him all the days of his/her life in abiding faith. A Christian takes the teachings of scripture to heart and serves Christ in all that he/she does to further the Kingdom of God on Earth.

Here you hint at another necessary condition: Christ. But I would ask: are you following a human Jesus? After all, you are only talking about "teachings" and furthering "the Kingdom of God". Jesus does not have to be divine to do either of these, does he? The "faith" can simply be faith that the teachings are good and the goal is worthwhile.

Is that sufficient? Doesn't a Christian also have to believe that Jesus was divine? How do we do that? Don't we also have to believe that Jesus died and was resurrected (what I tend to call "Christ")?

Sorry, GraceSeeker, Chris81 and I are now in dialogue about what ought to be the definition of Christian. You may very well want the Mods to move these posts to a new thread on "What should be the definition of Christian" so you can keep getting people to give you what they think the definition is.

 

[lucaspa]

Well, I'll tell you why I've asked so many different groups.

That wasn't a criticism. Sorry if it came off that way. It was a comment. I should have put the "smile" icon up to let you know I wasn't criticizing. I can see that you would want to compare the answers you get in different Christian community forums.

I'm an active poster as part of a Muslim forum. And in that setting, they give you the option of listing yourself as Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist, Agnostic, or none. Thus not only are all manner of protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox grouped together, but those who are Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, and many other groups that I personally do not feel are part of the body of Christ all have the same moniker. This leads to some interesting, but in my opinion, erroneous presentations regarding Christian beliefs.

I'm sure it would give some interesting but erroneous presentations of Christianity. I agree that Mormons and JWs are not part of Christianity: they do not believe in Trinity. And belief in Trinity is a necessary part of being Christian.

the others don't care and even group Unitarians with Christians at the same time that they denounce Christianity because of shirk (associating others with God). As I said, it doesn't always make sense.

LOL! Well, some Unitarians do talk about Jesus. Ah, interesting times. I can see why you could get frustrated there.

I think what you are going to find is that Christians have only a vague idea of what makes Christianity. In fact, I'm sure you have already found this!

Basically, it seems most people say that anyone who mentions Jesus within their religion is Christian. This even includes the Unitarians who only look on Jesus as a very wise teacher. Ironically, if Unitarians are considered Christian, so should Muslims! After all, Muslims regard Jesus as a prophet -- a condition closer to God than Unitarians do. So if you include Unitarians as Christians then logically you should include Muslims.

Which, of course, shows that those that consider Unitarians as Christians need to rethink their position.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Sorry, GraceSeeker, Chris81 and I are now in dialogue about what ought to be the definition of Christian. You may very well want the Mods to move these posts to a new thread on "What should be the definition of Christian" so you can keep getting people to give you what they think the definition is.

No. I hope they don't interrupt the conversation. I appreciate it. I might even use your distinction about both the necessary and the sufficient conditions when I formulate my post/poll on the Islamic site.

And I didn't take your other comment as criticism. I just thought I should share why I was asking the question in so many different places someplace, and your comment gave me a springboard for that.

 

[lucaspa]

No. I hope they don't interrupt the conversation. I appreciate it. I might even use your distinction about both the necessary and the sufficient conditions when I formulate my post/poll on the Islamic site.

Didn't they teach this in seminary?

Here is a good starting place for anyone that is interested:
The Concept of Necessary Conditions and Sufficient Conditions

Basically, you start with a list of necessary conditions. When that list is such that it guarantees the result, then the list is "sufficient".

Sometimes the list need one be one item. In the case of Christianity, there are several necessary conditions that must be met before the list is sufficient to label that person as "Christian".

The Nicene and Apostle's Creeds are claimed (not just by me) to be that list of necessary conditions that is sufficient to define Christianity.

 

[Chris81]

So you have what is called a necessary condition to be a Christian, but not a sufficient condition, because other religions can also have the same condition. (I would also argue about whether it is necessary, since I think you can be a Christian even if you can't love God with all your heart, strength, and mind, but let's do that later.)

So, let me be pedantic here a bit. When you make a definition you have to satisfy 2 criteria:
1. Sufficient conditions.
2. Necessary conditions.

The goal is to include everyone who are Christians and exclude everyone who is not.



Here you hint at another necessary condition: Christ. But I would ask: are you following a human Jesus? After all, you are only talking about "teachings" and furthering "the Kingdom of God". Jesus does not have to be divine to do either of these, does he? The "faith" can simply be faith that the teachings are good and the goal is worthwhile.

Is that sufficient? Doesn't a Christian also have to believe that Jesus was divine? How do we do that? Don't we also have to believe that Jesus died and was resurrected (what I tend to call "Christ")?

Sorry, GraceSeeker, Chris81 and I are now in dialogue about what ought to be the definition of Christian. You may very well want the Mods to move these posts to a new thread on "What should be the definition of Christian" so you can keep getting people to give you what they think the definition is.

I took it for a given that someone who is a follower in Christ could only come to believe that Jesus is Divine and the only begotten Son of God and the second person within the holy trinity. If you follow Christ, you would also believe all that he teaches and importantly who he claims to be. Given that Christ claims to be divine how could one claim to be a believer in someone they only partially believe in?

I however do see your point. Many people of other religions could claim that they also follow the teachings of the human person of Jesus.

Perhaps I should add a couple of sentences to my definition of what it means to be a Christian.

"A Christian is someone who believes that Christ is the only begotten Son of God who died as an atonement of our sins was resurrected and ascended into heaven to rule along side the father. A Christian believes in the trinity that God is of three persons Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit all of which are one eternal substance and entity."

 

[GraceSeeker]

Didn't they teach this in seminary?

There is much that is NOT taught in seminary. They only teach what is necessary. And when all the necessary things have been taught, they feel that it is sufficient. Your point is really something that is part of a logic class and, while useful, not necessary to ordination.

 

[lucaspa]

I took it for a given that someone who is a follower in Christ could only come to believe that Jesus is Divine and the only begotten Son of God and the second person within the holy trinity. If you follow Christ, you would also believe all that he teaches and importantly who he claims to be. Given that Christ claims to be divine how could one claim to be a believer in someone they only partially believe in?

Ask the Unitarians. As you said later, it is possible to follow the teachings of the human Jesus without believing that Jesus was divine. I'm glad you recognize that your assumption ("I took it for a given ...") is false.

Now, as to who Jesus claimed to be. Let me explain the position on that since you think that scripture forbids people thinking Jesus was simply human and not divine. The claims we know are genuine in the gospels are pretty ambiguous. Jesus refers to himself as "son of man". We don't know exactly what that meant to the people at the time. When it appears in other places in scripture the term does not mean "son of God". And we remember that all the gospels were written after Jesus was killed and resurrected. No one took notes at the time Jesus was preaching.

So, as was the expected practice of the time, some of the gospel authors inserted what they deduced and believed Jesus was into the gospels and had him "say" what the author believed.

There was, in very early Christianity, a movement/belief that Jesus was the adopted son of God. Not "begotten". Jesus was human, born of human parents, but he was so close to God and so faithfully followed God that God adopted him and, thus, resurrected him. They cited the Lord's Prayer as support for this. There are still sects in the Mideast that believe this. They are not considered "Christian". http://medlibrary.org/medwiki/Adoptionist

Many people of other religions could claim that they also follow the teachings of the human person of Jesus.

And they do.

Perhaps I should add a couple of sentences to my definition of what it means to be a Christian.

"A Christian is someone who believes that Christ is the only begotten Son of God who died as an atonement of our sins was resurrected and ascended into heaven to rule along side the father. A Christian believes in the trinity that God is of three persons Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit all of which are one eternal substance and entity."

That's pretty good. Or you could look at the Nicene and Apostle's Creeds. Don't they recite those in your church services? What you said here is pretty much what is in them. Your definition does leave out God as Creator, tho. In your opinion, do Christians have to believe God created the universe (another necessary condition)?

 

[lucaspa]

There is much that is NOT taught in seminary. They only teach what is necessary. And when all the necessary things have been taught, they feel that it is sufficient.

LOL! But they don't tell you what "necessary" and "sufficient" are so that you understand why all that you have been taught is individually necessary and why the set is sufficient?

Your point is really something that is part of a logic class and, while useful, not necessary to ordination.

I would have thought that understanding logic and logical argument were necessary to being a minister. Would they want you not making logical arguments to your congregants? Wouldn't they want you to avoid illogical arguments or logical fallacies?

I have a friend who taught in a seminary -- Rev. Gregory Neal. He knew about necessary and sufficient and I remember him saying he learned it in seminary.

 

[GraceSeeker]

I have a friend who taught in a seminary -- Rev. Gregory Neal. He knew about necessary and sufficient and I remember him saying he learned it in seminary.

Maybe I went to the wrong seminary, or picked the wrong day to fall asleep in class.

 

[Chris81]

Ask the Unitarians. The claims we know are genuine in the gospels are pretty ambiguous. Jesus refers to himself as "son of man". We don't know exactly what that meant to the people at the time. When it appears in other places in scripture the term does not mean "son of God". And we remember that all the gospels were written after Jesus was killed and resurrected. No one took notes at the time Jesus was preaching.

So, as was the expected practice of the time, some of the gospel authors inserted what they deduced and believed Jesus was into the gospels and had him "say" what the author believed.

Yes, well the Unitarians are a very weird group of people and I do not understand what they believe. I don't even think they know what they believe.

That's pretty good. Or you could look at the Nicene and Apostle's Creeds. Don't they recite those in your church services? What you said here is pretty much what is in them. Your definition does leave out God as Creator, tho. In your opinion, do Christians have to believe God created the universe (another necessary condition)?

Yes my church does recite the Nicene and Apostles Creeds. I would imagine that my last couple of sentences were likely from my memory of those creeds.

Yes, as a Christian one should believe that God is the Creator of the universe. The only people I know who claim to be Christian and believe that god is not truly the creator are Mormons. They believe that mater has always existed independent of god. Of course they have a whole number of additional beliefs that do not jive with what it means to be a Christian.

 

[Maid Marie]

I would have thought that understanding logic and logical argument were necessary to being a minister.

While that may be 'logical', it doesn't mean that it is taught unfortunately. I've had to learn this on my own through cds/dvds from the Teaching Co.