DIVAMOM said:
Since there's no scriptural support for this story and since some of the details contradict scripture, I ain't buyin' it.
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As a Christian today do you believe in Hell?
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Since there's no scriptural support for this story and since some of the details contradict scripture, I ain't buyin' it.
RevKidd
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This is one topic that I am not sure 100% what to believe...
Certainly there is a Hell... Whether it is Fire & Brimestone... Not sure anymore... But like someone said a few posts ago... Hell is seperation from God... That in itself is torment enough...
Certainly there is a Hell... Whether it is Fire & Brimestone... Not sure anymore... But like someone said a few posts ago... Hell is seperation from God... That in itself is torment enough...
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bobbichan
Nutella is bliss
I don't believe in an eternal firey place where people who did not accept Christ are tortured for the rest of enternity. That's just not in the Bible. It's another doctrine of man, and is one of Satan's tools to lead people away from the truth.
If you know anything about God's character you will know that He is a loving and Just God. He is a God of love, not a God of force. God gave us free will to decide. Take that into account next time you try to scare someone into Christianity with Hell. This has done more work to turn people away from the truth than many realize.
So do bad people go to hell when they die? This is commonly what people are taught. But what does the Bible say?
It says that God will reserve the unjust's punishment until the day of judgement. When is the day of Judgement? It's one of the very last events, at the very end of the world.
HOWEVER...
The wages of sin are death... not eternal hellfire.
The wicked die the second death in hellfire. If the wicked lived forever being tortured in hell, they would be immortal. But this is impossible, because the Bible says God "only hath immortality." 1 Timothy 6:16.
The Bible says the wicked suffer "death" (Romans 6:23), will suffer "destruction" (Job 21:30), "shall perish" (Psalm 37:20), will "burn" up (Malachi 4:1), "shall be destroyed together" (Psalm 37:38), will "consume away" (Psalm 37:20), "shall be cut off" (Psalm 37:9), "shall be slain" (Psalm 62:3). God will "destroy" them (Psalm 145:20), and "fire shall devour them" (Psalm 21:9). Note that all of these references make it clear that the wicked die and are destroyed. They do not live forever in misery.
It happens at the end of time when the wicked try to capture the New Jerusalem, but God sends hellfire down on them. It's so hot that it burns up all the works on this earth and melts the elements. The heavens pass away with great noise too.
What does the Bible say about how long the wicked will be punished in Hellfire?
The Bible doesn't tell how long the wicked will be punished before receiving death in the fire. It does say though, that all will be punished according to their deeds. This means some will receive greater punishment than others, based upon their works
Destroying sinners is completely against God's nature. However, in order to eradicate sin forever, there has to be something done about it. One sinner left alive would be like a virus, so in order to end all of that and bring about a new Heaven and new Earth where everything we know of from this world is gone forever... God brings about distruction. It's a strange act for Him. If God were to destroy these people for eternity it would make God out to be a horrible tyrant. Who would want to joyfully and lovingly follow a tyrant?
If you know anything about God's character you will know that He is a loving and Just God. He is a God of love, not a God of force. God gave us free will to decide. Take that into account next time you try to scare someone into Christianity with Hell. This has done more work to turn people away from the truth than many realize.
So do bad people go to hell when they die? This is commonly what people are taught. But what does the Bible say?
It says that God will reserve the unjust's punishment until the day of judgement. When is the day of Judgement? It's one of the very last events, at the very end of the world.
HOWEVER...
The wages of sin are death... not eternal hellfire.
The wicked die the second death in hellfire. If the wicked lived forever being tortured in hell, they would be immortal. But this is impossible, because the Bible says God "only hath immortality." 1 Timothy 6:16.
The Bible says the wicked suffer "death" (Romans 6:23), will suffer "destruction" (Job 21:30), "shall perish" (Psalm 37:20), will "burn" up (Malachi 4:1), "shall be destroyed together" (Psalm 37:38), will "consume away" (Psalm 37:20), "shall be cut off" (Psalm 37:9), "shall be slain" (Psalm 62:3). God will "destroy" them (Psalm 145:20), and "fire shall devour them" (Psalm 21:9). Note that all of these references make it clear that the wicked die and are destroyed. They do not live forever in misery.
It happens at the end of time when the wicked try to capture the New Jerusalem, but God sends hellfire down on them. It's so hot that it burns up all the works on this earth and melts the elements. The heavens pass away with great noise too.
What does the Bible say about how long the wicked will be punished in Hellfire?
The Bible doesn't tell how long the wicked will be punished before receiving death in the fire. It does say though, that all will be punished according to their deeds. This means some will receive greater punishment than others, based upon their works
Destroying sinners is completely against God's nature. However, in order to eradicate sin forever, there has to be something done about it. One sinner left alive would be like a virus, so in order to end all of that and bring about a new Heaven and new Earth where everything we know of from this world is gone forever... God brings about distruction. It's a strange act for Him. If God were to destroy these people for eternity it would make God out to be a horrible tyrant. Who would want to joyfully and lovingly follow a tyrant?
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DeanB
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I'm an Evangelical, Jesus-loving, saved-by-Grace Reconciliationist, but embracing Universal Reconciliation does not require (nor in my view even encourage) repudiation of the existence of Hell. Rather UR is the biblically-based belief that Hell is ultimately destroyed by Christ, and not perpetual (see Rev. 22).
God is All-Loving, and like a loving Parent he does not spare correction. His warning of Hell is no idle warning. As Thomas Cahill states in "The Gifts of the Jews", his history of the YHWH cult that evolved into Judaism: "Ahaz and Manasseh [the then Kings of Judah], offered children to Moloch, in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem. The Valley of Hinnom is the Gehenna of the Gospels, where it is invoked as an image of hell." (Cahill p. 221). Had we witnessed children thrown crying and screaming onto burning pyres, would we doubt Hell exists? The Arden Forest, the Armenian genocide, Bergen-Belsen, Auschwitz, the Bataan Deathmarch, the Dresden firebombing, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Mi Lai, 9/11. We need evidence that Hell exists?
God in his mercy has allowed Hell on earth too many times to ennumerate. How could we think that the selfishness, spite, vanity, and power-lust that created and continues to create Hell every day would magically evaporate upon our physical passing. That is NOT the story of the Gospels, nor of the Epistles, nor of Revelation. That is not a Christian story. It is what C.S. Lewis refered to as "Christianity and Soap" - - quasi-Christian New-Age nonsense that denies reality - - an unsustainable illusion anywhere other than America in the late 20th century, a society as temporally and physically separated from these atrocities as any in history.
Christianity is a faith that has always looked reality straight in the face. Our Lord Himself was brutally tortured and maimed. Is the servant greater than the Master? The suffering that is the consequence of sin will inexorably lead people to change their behaviour and their hearts, and God will HEAL. But there is no magic bullet, no shortcuts. Tom Talbott (author of "The Inescapable Love of God") refers to the LORD as the "Hound of Heaven", relentless in his pursuit of us, and in his insistence that we mature, and put away childish things.
The Christian walk is glorious and love-filled, but our thinking is muddled if we allow the love that fills our hearts to deny the pain that exists everywhere in the world around us.
God is All-Loving, and like a loving Parent he does not spare correction. His warning of Hell is no idle warning. As Thomas Cahill states in "The Gifts of the Jews", his history of the YHWH cult that evolved into Judaism: "Ahaz and Manasseh [the then Kings of Judah], offered children to Moloch, in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem. The Valley of Hinnom is the Gehenna of the Gospels, where it is invoked as an image of hell." (Cahill p. 221). Had we witnessed children thrown crying and screaming onto burning pyres, would we doubt Hell exists? The Arden Forest, the Armenian genocide, Bergen-Belsen, Auschwitz, the Bataan Deathmarch, the Dresden firebombing, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Mi Lai, 9/11. We need evidence that Hell exists?
God in his mercy has allowed Hell on earth too many times to ennumerate. How could we think that the selfishness, spite, vanity, and power-lust that created and continues to create Hell every day would magically evaporate upon our physical passing. That is NOT the story of the Gospels, nor of the Epistles, nor of Revelation. That is not a Christian story. It is what C.S. Lewis refered to as "Christianity and Soap" - - quasi-Christian New-Age nonsense that denies reality - - an unsustainable illusion anywhere other than America in the late 20th century, a society as temporally and physically separated from these atrocities as any in history.
Christianity is a faith that has always looked reality straight in the face. Our Lord Himself was brutally tortured and maimed. Is the servant greater than the Master? The suffering that is the consequence of sin will inexorably lead people to change their behaviour and their hearts, and God will HEAL. But there is no magic bullet, no shortcuts. Tom Talbott (author of "The Inescapable Love of God") refers to the LORD as the "Hound of Heaven", relentless in his pursuit of us, and in his insistence that we mature, and put away childish things.
The Christian walk is glorious and love-filled, but our thinking is muddled if we allow the love that fills our hearts to deny the pain that exists everywhere in the world around us.
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He is. Jesus Christ was the supreme revelation of that love, and it is he who preaches it more than any other in the bible. Is there anyone more meek and loving than Christ? Whatever our idea of love is, we should change it to fit better with his. So here is some of what he said:bobbichan said:
Matthew 18:8 said:
Mark 9:48 said:
Matthew23:33 said:
He seems to regard the idea of fire, agony, and eternity as pretty concrete. Even if they are only metaphors, they are metaphors for something awful. Christ didn't use metaphors to present things as worse than they were, but because our minds aren't big enough to grasp the magnitude of what he is talking about. That only makes hell more terrfiying. I repeat, Jesus is the supreme revelation of love - so we should take notice when he talks of terrible things. He warns us - and through us, the world - out of love.Luke 16:22-24 said:
He is the 'Lord of Hosts' - the supreme Lord of the greatest army of all. Christ is the rider upon the white horse out of whose mouth comes the two-edged sword. He is the Lord who breaks spears and bows, who crushed the Egyptians with the waters of the Red Sea and will destroy heaven and earth at the end of time. He may not be a God who 'forces us'. He is a God who will use an awful lot of force to sweep away evil, and to punish it.bobbichan said:
I am not used to trying to 'scare people into christianity', and neither, in all likelihood, was the poor poster who merited that. Hellfire, even when preached to the unconverted, is part of a larger message. And it should only ever be preached with tears. If we don't cry when preaching it we don't understand it enough to preach it. God himself saidbobbichan said:
You are, sadly, though, right when you say that the preaching of hell does much to turn people from christianity. I am sure plenty of us have spent long enoug arguing with nonchristians on this forum on this very topic. But what does that mean? Perhaps we are bad at presenting the message - if anyone thinks God is vengeful or enjoys suffering because of the way we present this, then that is another reason we deserve far worse than God ever gives us.Ezekiel 33.11 said:
But if it is not that, if people are turned away because of the doctrine itself - what do you want us to do? We aren't here for a popularity contest. We might be desperate for them to be saved, but covering up what was clearly a firm part of Christ's message isn't going to help people believe that message. If we think our faith is the truth - really the truth - then me must stand by it, whether others find it hateful or not.
Magi
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DeanB said:
Remember CS Lewis wasn't an American! I think Oxford probably qualifies as more separated from atrocity than even America.
People deny hell just as much in Europe, after all. CS Lewis' own generation saw both world wars - and still they doubted hell. Their children still do.
Magi
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E-vangelist
Active Member
There is a Hell all right. I might not know the whole details of hell but I know this much if you never accepted Jesus as your personal savior and repented of your sins you will experience it. I do know it is the one place that you are separated from God.
Think about this...
Say you jump out of a plain with out a parachute; you will smack the ground and die. It is also the same in life if you never accept Jesus sacrifice on the cross and never surrender your life to Christ and repent of your sins you will fall into hell and die the second death.
How can anyone say there is no Hell??? It is like saying there is no gravity just because you do not see it does not mean it does not exist. Saying there is no Hell is like saying you can jump off a building without smacking into the ground. But both lies Satan tells are untrue, Hell and the Law of Gravity both exist.
So believe what you whish but I warn you if your life ends and your time comes to jump off the building and you jump w/o the parachute of Christ you will experience the Law Of Gods (10 Commandments) and it will Condemn you to eternal Hell!!!
In Jesus Name
E-vangelist
(Father When Will People See)
Think about this...
Say you jump out of a plain with out a parachute; you will smack the ground and die. It is also the same in life if you never accept Jesus sacrifice on the cross and never surrender your life to Christ and repent of your sins you will fall into hell and die the second death.
How can anyone say there is no Hell??? It is like saying there is no gravity just because you do not see it does not mean it does not exist. Saying there is no Hell is like saying you can jump off a building without smacking into the ground. But both lies Satan tells are untrue, Hell and the Law of Gravity both exist.
So believe what you whish but I warn you if your life ends and your time comes to jump off the building and you jump w/o the parachute of Christ you will experience the Law Of Gods (10 Commandments) and it will Condemn you to eternal Hell!!!
In Jesus Name
E-vangelist
(Father When Will People See)
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bobbichan
Nutella is bliss
E-vangelist said:
It's true to some extent. But I believe that you don't go anywhere when you die. You are asleep. It's referenced several times in scripture. We are only ressurected either a) if you died in Christ at the 2nd coming, or b) ressurection to damnation which is after the 1000 years.
Here's a few scriptures on this, I'll post more later cause I gotta go to work:
Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Eccl: 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Those are just a few. Gotta book it! x_x
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Everything most pastors don't tell you about hell:
http://www.nisbett.com/library/hell_fire-los15.html
http://biblelight.net/hell.htm
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/6.htm
http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/immortality.htm
These links are really hot.
http://www.nisbett.com/library/hell_fire-los15.html
http://biblelight.net/hell.htm
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/6.htm
http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/immortality.htm
These links are really hot.
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HomeBound
Learning in the meantime
I don't claim to know anything for sure about our lives when we leave this Earth, but I believe Hell is here... Earth
1) We are separate from God.
2) There are lakes of fire that surface all the time.
3) Worms seem to stay alive no matter how messed up they get.
4) I gnash my teeth once in a while. I don't think spirits will have teeth.
5) Some people go through horrible torment while here.
6) How many of us feel like we're being punished down here?
etc...
Just a few thaughts.
1) We are separate from God.
2) There are lakes of fire that surface all the time.
3) Worms seem to stay alive no matter how messed up they get.
4) I gnash my teeth once in a while. I don't think spirits will have teeth.
5) Some people go through horrible torment while here.
6) How many of us feel like we're being punished down here?
etc...
Just a few thaughts.
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E-vangelist
Active Member
This is true to some extent. But where you are wrong is that we are not separated from God. He is with us always even if you do not feel His presence. Life is hard I will be the first to admit it but this is not the whole picture we still have eternity. Still weather you believe in hell or not does not change the truth.
In Jesus Name
E-vangelist
In Jesus Name
E-vangelist
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Jesus described hell. The devil doesn't reign in hell, that is not a biblical doctrine. He ist the Prince of this world, of the power of the air.
Hell is used in different ways by different people. But there is a final place of torment known as the lake of fire which will be VOID of God's presence! Think of that! Not just fire and brimstone, but no LOVE, JOY, PEACE, etc. IT will be confusion of spirit, torture. Withdraw God completely, and HIS attributes, and that's what it will be. It will be no party in Hell (what will end up as the eternal place of torment for the unsaved).
Look at the story of Lazarus and the beggar, which is obviously not a parable. Jesus uses a specific man's name, which is unlike ANY other parable:
19There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.
25But Abraham replied, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.
It's obvious Lazarus was in the place called Paradise, while the unbeliever Lazarus was in torment.
Rev. 20:10 and the rest of the book discuss the final place of torment.
To think there is no place of torment is unbiblical, and I'd be worried that person would accept any "ear tickling" doctrine.
Hell is used in different ways by different people. But there is a final place of torment known as the lake of fire which will be VOID of God's presence! Think of that! Not just fire and brimstone, but no LOVE, JOY, PEACE, etc. IT will be confusion of spirit, torture. Withdraw God completely, and HIS attributes, and that's what it will be. It will be no party in Hell (what will end up as the eternal place of torment for the unsaved).
Look at the story of Lazarus and the beggar, which is obviously not a parable. Jesus uses a specific man's name, which is unlike ANY other parable:
19There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.
25But Abraham replied, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.
It's obvious Lazarus was in the place called Paradise, while the unbeliever Lazarus was in torment.
Rev. 20:10 and the rest of the book discuss the final place of torment.
To think there is no place of torment is unbiblical, and I'd be worried that person would accept any "ear tickling" doctrine.
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walking with christ said:
On the day of the Rapture there will be plenty of priests/ministers left behind. Talking the good talk but not really believing in their heart is what will get them left . Some people are better actors than those in Hollywood.
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Rebirth In Flames
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The truth of Christianity is not relative to the times in history, like today's ideology wants Christians to believe!
This is the problem with Christianity today, the Christian community is becoming selective when it comes to the Word of God. They say, Well I dont agree with this teaching or this passage, so Im going to change the meaning of it for me or This would make me unhappy or this is a hard teaching to accept, and I dont think a loving God is really like that, so I dont really believe in this one section of Scripture. Society loves a watered-down Christian, and so does Satan.
Theres going to come a day when an average biblical Christian on todays standards, is going to become an extreme fundamentalist in the futures standards. Why? Because society will keep getting worse, and Christians will continue to become watered down to the point that there will no more substance left in their faith except the few who hold fast to the belief that the Bible is Truth. A Christian who does not believe in the entirety of the Bible as fact, is by no definition a strong Christian; he is watered down and has given into the fleshy philosophy used by the devil to discredit the infallible and Holy Word of God.
Hell exists because the Bible says so. If you profess to be a Christian, then you better believe in whats behind that title, because you just like everybody else, will have to answer for it in humility and humbleness before the throne of God. Therefore because I call myself a Christian, I also believe in every single thing that the Bible has written in it. The second you add or take away from the Scripture, is the second that you create a whole other religion entirely.
Also, it doesnt matter what or how we feel about what the text says, our selfish feelings about Scripture do not change the fact that what the Bible says is the truth.
Id rather live in the truth right now which will live forever, than live with personal and selfish justification that dies when I die.
This is the problem with Christianity today, the Christian community is becoming selective when it comes to the Word of God. They say, Well I dont agree with this teaching or this passage, so Im going to change the meaning of it for me or This would make me unhappy or this is a hard teaching to accept, and I dont think a loving God is really like that, so I dont really believe in this one section of Scripture. Society loves a watered-down Christian, and so does Satan.
Theres going to come a day when an average biblical Christian on todays standards, is going to become an extreme fundamentalist in the futures standards. Why? Because society will keep getting worse, and Christians will continue to become watered down to the point that there will no more substance left in their faith except the few who hold fast to the belief that the Bible is Truth. A Christian who does not believe in the entirety of the Bible as fact, is by no definition a strong Christian; he is watered down and has given into the fleshy philosophy used by the devil to discredit the infallible and Holy Word of God.
Hell exists because the Bible says so. If you profess to be a Christian, then you better believe in whats behind that title, because you just like everybody else, will have to answer for it in humility and humbleness before the throne of God. Therefore because I call myself a Christian, I also believe in every single thing that the Bible has written in it. The second you add or take away from the Scripture, is the second that you create a whole other religion entirely.
Also, it doesnt matter what or how we feel about what the text says, our selfish feelings about Scripture do not change the fact that what the Bible says is the truth.
Id rather live in the truth right now which will live forever, than live with personal and selfish justification that dies when I die.
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