As a Christian, how many of you believe in evolution?

[Kylie]

actually even in that case there is no problem to claim that some people may created the watch earlier than we thought. here is something similar:

World's oldest computer may be older than previously thought

Are you going to suggest that we push back the date of the earliest hard drive too? The earliest mouse?

 

[Jimmy D]

actually even in that case there is no problem to claim that some people may created the watch earlier than we thought. here is something similar:

World's oldest computer may be older than previously thought

Earlier than the ability to work metal? Earlier than a knowledge of the movements of the heavens?

Nope. Try thinking about these things instead of just automatically googling an opposing viewpoint.

You can "push back" the date of evolutionary events, it's going to happen when we make new discoveries. Some may be surprising, yet they still fit within the general sequences we expect to see.... without exception. Funny that.

Now, I know how I would interpret what we find in the fossil record according to the TOE, I know of no evidence that would make me reconsider my interpretation.

Maybe you could explain how you interpret what you see in the diagram below...

 

[xianghua]

Are you going to suggest that we push back the date of the earliest hard drive too? The earliest mouse?

no. just the computer itself or some parts of it. see? no problem.

 

[xianghua]

It's a problem when we have all those fossils linked to specific periods in history. It's just too complicated.

why? we can push back mammals. there is no evolutionery limitation to that. if we can push a group of fossils by 10 my (similar to what we seen with the tetrapod case) we can also push it by 30 and 40 my.

Theoretically, a common ancestor of the flytrap and the sundew had sticky leaves to trap insects (like the sundew has today).

so this suppose to be the first step. but how many mutations we need to evolve a sticky part? does it need a single gene or more?

add a mechanism to close the leaves together,

this step is even more problematic. we know that such a mechanism need at least several parts at the molecular level. so how such a system that can move the leaves evolve stepwise? it cant.

 

[Yttrium]

why? we can push back mammals. there is no evolutionery limitation to that. if we can push a group of fossils by 10 my (similar to what we seen with the tetrapod case) we can also push it by 30 and 40 my.

I would think you'd be happy when we say that finding a human fossil with a brontosaurus fossil would break the ToE. Then all you'd have to do is find such a case, and the ToE is broken.

so this suppose to be the first step. but how many mutations we need to evolve a sticky part? does it need a single gene or more?

I dunno. I'm a math guy, not a biology guy. I wouldn't know where to begin trying to find the answer to that.

this step is even more problematic. we know that such a mechanism need at least several parts at the molecular level. so how such a system that can move the leaves evolve stepwise? it cant.

How can you say it can't, when you don't know anything about the genes in question? I don't know anything about the genes in question either, so who knows, you might be accidentally right about that. I think we would both need to learn much more about the subject to make a reasonable guesstimate on that. Personally, I'm not going to judge something as impossible if I don't know anything about it.

 

[Jimmy D]

How can you say it can't, when you don't know anything about the genes in question?

It's a classic argument from ignorance.

 

[Kylie]

no. just the computer itself or some parts of it. see? no problem.

So you aren't proposing that we push back the dates of the earliest hard drive or the earliest mouse.

You're just proposing that we push back the dates of some parts of the computer. Like hard drives and mice.

Makes perfect sense...

 

[Jimmy D]

Maybe you could explain how you interpret what you see in the diagram below...

Didn't think so.

 

[xianghua]

I would think you'd be happy when we say that finding a human fossil with a brontosaurus fossil would break the ToE. Then all you'd have to do is find such a case, and the ToE is broken.

but i just explained why it will not be a problem to the theory. scientists push back creatures all the time:

https://phys.org/news/2013-10-fossils-million-years-early-triassic.html

Remarkable fossils push back snake origins by 65 million years - Reuters

I dunno. I'm a math guy, not a biology guy. I wouldn't know where to begin trying to find the answer to that.

the problem is that even biologists dont know the answer.

How can you say it can't, when you don't know anything about the genes in question?

ok. lets see. do you agree that even a designer cant make a motion system (like automatic door) by a single part?

 

[Yttrium]

ok. lets see. do you agree that even a designer cant make a motion system (like automatic door) by a single part?

It's quite possible to make things that move using a single part. A garage door might be a bit tricky.

 

[xianghua]

It's quite possible to make things that move using a single part. A garage door might be a bit tricky.

so we understand that its basically impossible to do that (automatic door). why should it be different with the venus trap?

 

[Yttrium]

so we understand that its basically impossible to do that (automatic door).

That's not what I said. I said it would be tricky to do with an automatic door. It's possible to make a moving thing with a single part.

 

[Speedwell]

so how such a system that can move the leaves evolve stepwise? it cant.

You have made that claim over and over. But you have NEVER backed it up with any arguments or any evidence. You have NEVER responded to explanations as to how related parts of a complex system evolve. It's time you stopped making that claim.

 

[TLK Valentine]

but i just explained why it will not be a problem to the theory. scientists push back creatures all the time:

Gosh, it's almost as if the theory of evolution doesn't live or die on any one single fact?

 

[xianghua]

That's not what I said. I said it would be tricky to do with an automatic door.

and its also true for an automatic flytrap.

 

[Ophiolite]

and its also true for an automatic flytrap.

I use flypaper that moves gently in the wind and works with excellent efficiency. One piece. Moving. QED.

 

[xianghua]

I use flypaper that moves gently in the wind and works with excellent efficiency. One piece. Moving. QED.

but the venus flytrap move by a special system and not by the wind. so how such a system can evolve stepwise?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

but the venus flytrap move by a special system and not by the wind. so how such a system can evolve stepwise?

Google is your friend - I try not to be a Google front-end for people who lack initiative, but here is a general overview of the answer to your question : Venus Flytrap origins uncovered.

 

[Kylie]

Can I ask that everyone checks out the Evolution 101 podcast? It's clear and easy to understand and will give you a good basis on evolutionary theory. Evolution 101 podcast

 

[xianghua]

Google is your friend - I try not to be a Google front-end for people who lack initiative, but here is a general overview of the answer to your question : Venus Flytrap origins uncovered.

realy? where is the answer of how many mutations we need to make the trap moving?