Article: differences between UMJC and MJAA

Messianic Jewboy said:

Oh yea I don't catch that.

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Just a FYI - the thread screen here is elongated. I don't have to scroll back and forth to do so - but it is stretched.

Messianic Jewboy said:

Traditionally it's how a Bris is performed(mohel etc) which isn't found in scripture.

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I'm well aware of that, which is why I asked the question. The portion I quoted made it sound like there are elements of ritual circumcision found in Scripture, but there aren't...

"taking away elements of the traditional service that are rabbinic and not scripturally founded"

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Messianic Jewboy said:

Perhaps the name Messianic Judaism was a mistake?

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No question about it. MJ [as a whole] has very little in common with traditional Judaism. This forum should make that abundantly clear. Having "Judaism" in the title was definitely a mistake, and is very misleading in my opinion.

The title implies Judaism is not Messianic, which it is, and implies traditional Judaism recognizes Messianic Judaism as a legitimate branch of Judaism, which it doesn't. You can not get much more misleading than that.

Messianic Jewboy said:

I'm referring to in it's initial birth of the modern Messianic Jewish movement. There are organizations that are moving towards being more traditional Judaism. So to say the name is a mistake presently is not necessarily true as it pertains to being more traditional. Which could be Judaism+ Messianic doctrine or Messianic doctrine+ Judaism, depending on what the primary focus is.

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Unfortunately, wishful thinking is as far as it will, or can, go. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for MJ taking on more of its parent's doctrines, but at the same time I'm a realist too. In many core doctrines they are very opposed to one another, and neither side will ever budge.

For instance, MJ believes that Yeshua is G-d incarnated into human flesh, but Judaism considers that idolatry of the highest form. When the so-called "Church" decided to deify Yeshua it sealed its own fate as far as any real significant conversion numbers are concerned. That was by far their biggest mistake. And of course, traditional Judaism will never believe Yeshua was the promised Mashiakh of Israel. Period. [and please don't try to tell me the Jewish people will "repent" in the end-times and admit Yeshua is Mashiakh, and L-rd].

Messianic Jewboy said:

....if I'm making sense.

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Your making plenty of sense. Your just not being very realistic is all. And I most certainly share your desire for MJ to be closer to traditional Judaism. Nothing would make me happier.

Messianic Jewboy said:

I think I'm being more unbiased than you with all due respect, looking at both sides of the pendulum with honesty.

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Seriously? How is that?

MadMaxData said:

No question about it. MJ [as a whole] has very little in common with traditional Judaism. This forum should make that abundantly clear. Having "Judaism" in the title was definitely a mistake, and is very misleading in my opinion.

The title implies Judaism is not Messianic, which it is, and implies traditional Judaism recognizes Messianic Judaism as a legitimate branch of Judaism, which it doesn't. You can not get much more misleading than that.

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The forum was named after the movement. The movement, though, should not be understood to reflect current realities. It is more of a hope.

From the late 1800's Jewish followers of Jesus went by the name "Hebrew Christian", and the religious practice was "Hebrew Christianity". Which is why I routinely apply that term to to people who reflect a priority on Christian theology, with a little bit of Jewish flair as an adjective.

It was in the 1970's when Jewish followers of Yeshua set as their goal the idea that we should embody a Judaism, with the addition of re-inviting Yeshua back into the Jewish fold. That was how we got the name "Messianic Judaism". It is a goal, not an end.

mishkan said:

The forum was named after the movement. The movement, though, should not be understood to reflect current realities. It is more of a hope.

From the late 1800's Jewish followers of Jesus went by the name "Hebrew Christian", and the religious practice was "Hebrew Christianity". Which is why I routinely apply that term to to people who reflect a priority on Christian theology, with a little bit of Jewish flair as an adjective.

It was in the 1970's when Jewish followers of Yeshua set as their goal the idea that we should embody a Judaism, with the addition of re-inviting Yeshua back into the Jewish fold. That was how we got the name "Messianic Judaism". It is a goal, not an end.

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The catalyst I keep speaking about, but it all gets very one sided (either way round) at times

Paul Levertoff in the 19th century carried on the work of Rabbi Joseph Rabinowitz who, in the 1880's, built his idea of an autonomous, indigenous Hebrew Christian community. Levertoff took over the work in 1892 and evetually became a vicar and established a small group of Hebrew Christians in his East London church to worship Yeshua in a Jewish style, with the liturgy being followed in Hebrew. Levertoff, an Chabad Jew (Chabad Judaism was founded by one of his forebears) didn't really believe in evangelising Jews, but he was certain that Chabad Judaism could meet the needs of Jews who believed in Yeshua.

It is a matter of historical fact that 1000's of Jews fought against the allies in the first world war - supporting Germany and its allies. Thinking they were secure as WW2 loomed ahead, because of the battles they fought in WW1 against the allies, they were shocked when Germany turned against them with no apparent logic. It is thought, by some, that the 1914-18 battles against the rest of the world might have been why, in the early stages, none of the allied nations reached out to help them in Germany.

We know the rest, sadly - never before in modern times has the fortune of a people changed so dramatically with such disastrous outcomes for all its people.

Messianic Judaism, as such, came along later - the rest, as they say, is recent history.

Movements have a way of growing. May the Lord continue to inspire this growth, prune us where we need it, and we all bear the fruit that He expects.

Messianic Jewboy said:

From it's initial birth the modern Messianic Jewish movement came from Hebrew Christianity. The article compares the 2 well known organizations. I guess you can say that one group chooses to stay in it's Hebrew Christian roots and the other organization wants to move away and has been from it's Hebrew Christian roots.

Now what makes Hebrew Christian Messianic Judaism? The main think is Hebrew Christianity was IN the Church, part of the Church. There was a movement that wanted autonomy say to speak, so Messianic Judaism was created as a means for Jewish believers to maintain a higher level of Jewish identity.

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Historically..

Some have claimed that the Baptists were the ones who helped create the background for Hebrew Christianity - but the Baptists were never the ones who began the Messianic Jewish movement - although there were many Baptists who were historically associated with it in their congregations and become more prominent later on. Ones in existence today which one can take note of are the Southern Baptist Messianic Fellowship movement (more shared here, here and here - as well as mentioned before in #219 ).

On the history of things, in 1972, the Hebrew Christian Alliance of America decided to officially adopt the name Messianic Jewish Alliance of America.

It also resolved to encourage the formation of Messianic Jewish congregations as independent from evangelical denominations and Jewish missions. Within a year, there were Messianic congregations in Cincinnati, Philadelphia and Chicago. Several years later, some of these congregations agreed to form an association, and they founded the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC). In 1982, another similar organization was formed to work within the organizational structure of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America - and the International Alliance of Messianic Jewish Congregations and Synagogues was born (IAMJCS).

In our times, most Messianic Jewish congregations are affiliated to one of these associations, and there is close fellowship between them. Moreover, in the years that followed, two additional organizations were formed that pertained to the Baptist world: The Association of Southern Baptist Messianic Jewish Congregations (sponsored by the Southern Baptist Convention's Home Missions), and the other being the Association of Messianic Jewish Congregations. It's the case that all these associations now have member congregations around the world, and their annual conventions have become international gatherings for all Messianic Jewish believers.

And other Messianic Jewish groups/organizations developed from those to have their own flavor/format as well.

But again, the history of the Modern Messianic Jewish movement never began with the Southern Baptists. The history of the Modern Messianic Jewish movement always began with the HCAA, which came to be MJAA. In the 1800's the term Hebrew Christian arose because the Jews who had entered the Church were given the freedom through the revivals to again embrace their Judaism, from within the Church. After 1948/67 Hebrew Christians started moving back to their roots and began identifying as MJ 'again'.
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The Hebrew Christian Alliance of American (HCAA) was founded in 1915, in part to emphasize to fundamentalist Christians that while it used Jewish forms/Jewish lifestyle, it was a cooperating evangelistic arm of the evangelical church in their outreach to the Jewish people. The focus was finding ways to help Jews feel reflected/valued in the Body of Christ - even though others for centuries already experienced that in other parts of Christendom and felt no inclination to become a part of the Evangelical world.
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In 1975, the HCAA changed its name to the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America. Essentially, HCAA started as part of the church, then they became self existent as MJAA. ..and from the MJAA came other groups that later separated into the many differing camps throughout the world of Messianic Judaism. A lot occurred with the apparent evolutionary progression of HCAA (1915) into MJAA(1975) form - and not without a certain degree of dispute, as it seems.

Others felt that the MJAA became as it was because it was more so a movement rather than a denomination with it's main focus on Yeshua as the 'One who Moses in the Law and the prophets did write'... and this movement helping in the 'ushering in of the Messiah' in a rivival type focus. In other words Jewish revival. Jewish Revival may sound like an odd term - but it is indeed one of the best descriptions of it...especially considering others apart of the movement and the era that the event occurred in (if recalling the 60s/70s era movement called the Jesus People movement and the many prophetic declarations done by others within it like Jewish musician Keith Green...especially in regards to Jewish believers coming in/becoming saved).

Historically, regardless of where others (myself included) may have disagreements with groups like the HCAA, many of them died during the Holocaust...and because of the work/advocacy they did as well as those who were British Zionists during the 1920-40s era, what came about was the formation of the Israeli State in its formation. They were proud of the Jewish representation that was fostered in their ranks - and it is from that basis that much of the Messianic Jewish movement today was allowed to develop.

For the sake of historical purposes, Dr. Arnold Frunctenbaum's book Hebrew Christianity: Its Theology, History, and Philosophy is a good resource for our movement's beginnings. Frunctenbaum's works on Hebrew Christianity, including his very amazing book which covered alot of ground, are very beneficial in clarifying issues (IMHO). Also, If interested, found one resource here that was very in-depth..and for others:

• "The Messianic Jew
• The Messianic Jewish Movement
• The History of Jewish Christianity
• "Chapter 20: The Rise of Messianic Judaism
• The Messianic Jewish Congregational Movement
• MESSIANIC JEWISH HISTORY by Mottel Baleston
• Ernest Lloyd - International Hebrew Christian | HaDavar
• HEBRLN CHRISTIAN CONFERENCE or THE INTERNATIONAL ...
• How Jewish Is Christianity?: Two Views on the Messianic Movement
• The image of the Judaeo-Christians in ancient Jewish and Christian literature
• Jesus Christ in world history: his presence and representation in ... - Page 242
• "A History of the 20th Century Movement in America of "Jewish Believers" in "Yeshua Ha Mashiach" (Jesus Christ)
• "The London Society for Promoting Christianity Amongst the Jews (extract from the Report of the Committee). With Dr. Buchanan’s Speech, as to the State of the Jews in the East".

Some of the resources included the actual pamphlets they used in the meetings during the 1920-30s era.

Messianic Jewboy said:

There are organizations that are moving towards being more traditional Judaism. So to say the name is a mistake presently is not necessarily true as it pertains to being more traditional. Which could be Judaism+ Messianic doctrine or Messianic doctrine+ Judaism, depending on what the primary focus is.

I'm for more of a balance with primary focus on the centrality of Yeshua then traditional Judaism, Which both groups in the article haven't gone or not going in my opinion.

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ALthough both groups have had differing ways of evolving, it is thankfully the case that focusing on Yeshua has not led to fundamentally taking away from who He is as many have done in the name of Messianic Jewish culture. This is something many Messianic Jews - on both sides of the fence with UMJC and MJAA - have had to contend with when it comes to the goal of outreach, as they've noticed how often others who are counter-missionaries came in....said they were interested in being identified as Messianic Jewish/helping to bridge others with Judaism ...and yet in the end, the real goal was exposed that they never believed Yeshua was God nor did they want anything else except getting other Jews in the MJ Movement to begin advocating that Yeshua was not God incarnate.

Many have noted the ways that others have gone into full-blown Judaism simply because of the fact that their goal for identification led them to assume that claiming Yeshua is God was solely an idea that only "Christians" believed - and in their goal to be against all things in Christianity, they naturally rejected one of the basics in the Gospel. And true Judaism as Yeshua and the Apostles noted it was always about realizing that the Messiah would be Divine/incarnated into Flesh. It didn't matter what other camps of Judaism said or whether they saw it as idolatry since they didn't have the Messiah - the most Jewish thing one could do.

So for both the UMJC and the MJAA in their respective paths, there does need to be a growing awareness on the fact that trying to identify more with traditional Judaism (or rabbinical Judaism from modern times) will require also being aware that it should be repeated that no one can claim to truly be Messianic Jewish if they don't claim that Yeshua is the Messiah - nor is anyone truly honoring the Messiah as the 1st Century Jews were if claiming he was Not God the Messiah.

Most of the early deadly heresies in the Early Church were done by Jews - and those heresies were combatted by the Jewish believers - all against a backdrop of seeking to be culturally identified with Jewish culture. You had the Ebionites (from the Hebrew word which means poor, or humble) who regarded themselves as the true followers of Christ and his poor disciples - yet believed that Jesus was merely a man, a prophet, a spokesman for God....but in their minds, the goal was to be able to relate with other camps of Judaism (even if it meant taking on stances that were counter to what the Apostles said). And there were other crazy heresies that also came up from other Jewish heretics doing the same - it is what is occurring in our times as well.

This is a clear fork-in-the-road for those who wish our Messiah faith to be merely an emulation of Judaism - for it’s not that the Messianic movement must discard Judaism...but it’s that there are clear practical divergences here, divergences besides the deal-breaker that is Yeshua-as-divine-Messiah, Yeshua as Lord. And the treatment of Gentiles is such a divergence - for as much as it makes a difference wrestling over that issue, it is a big deal when it takes focus OFF of the centrality of what Yeshua taught with regards to seeing Himself for salvation. If we're on a ship heading for a destination, we may wish to add things on like modifications to help it be more effective or check to see if the ship looks good - but we don't choose to place less emphasis on the basics such as seeing if there are any holes in the ship which will cause it to sink...or seeing if the ship will even continue to float after doing maintenence. And we don't simply set sail while allowing others to come on the ship claiming to want to be a part of the crew/having a heart for the journey - and yet they outright deny the purpose the ship was made.

And likewise, just because the UMJC and the MJAA have differing goals doesn't mean that the goals become the focus while the larger issues are neglected by people claiming to be Messianic/wanting to wrestle on the issue.....and yet outright ignoring the qualifications for being a believer in the Messiah.

The UMJC and MJAA are clear that Messiah’s divinity is part of Messianic Jewish belief.

But in both the UMJC and MJAA, there does seem to be potential for the rise of Early Jewish herises from the 1st Century Church to come back ...and I do think that they need to combat more fiercely than it has seemed since the focus has mainly been on the way Gentiles are to be treated rather than the larger issues of is Yeshua God (or seeing if one's focus on Gentile practice promotes the fact of Yeshua's Divinity more so than how much they are able to identify with traditional Judaism) - for you have many Gentiles coming into the camp that focus on the UMJC with conversion and yet they may still advocate that Yeshua is not God. The same goes with other Messianic Gentiles or Messianic Jews saying they're against both the UMJC and MJAA - and yet they don't even see how anti-Messianic it is whenever they claim the Messiah is Not Divine. Those are big issues since again it's like focusing on fixing one problem at the expense of maintaining other central factors that keep things in place.

• Prayer in Yeshua - MJ Studies
• Jesus-Yeshua - Who Is He? - Real Messiah
• JUDAISMS AND INCARNATIONAL THEOLOGIES
• The Great Messianic Jewish Paradigm Shift | - Rosh
  [*]Can you be Jewish and believe that God became flesh
• What The Rabbis Believed About A Divine Messiah... - Rosh
• The Jewish Background of the Incarnation in The Gospel of John
• Complexity in Early Jewish Messianism - Kesher Journal of Messianic Judaism
• Finding our Way Through nicaea: The Deity of Yeshua - Kesher Journal of Messianic Judaism

Proving Through Scriptures That Jesus is The Messiah - Dr. Michael Brown - YouTube

Messianic Jewboy said:

Hi mishkan you have real life experience and I only have the people who I talk to that were there. Perhaps being from different regions makes a difference.

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That may very well be true. Also, I suspect different ones, even among the "pioneers", each had his own unique experience and vision. I'm sure Arnold Fruchtenbaum would present a very different perspective from David Chernoff or Dan Juster.

Then, there is the "Jews for Jesus Refugee", which is reflected in the experience of a variety of agnostics, atheists, ba'al teshuvahs, and modern leaders like Stuart Dauermann and Mitch Glaser. The various discussion fora for the "ex-JFJ" folks were quite animated for awhile, and reflected a lot of different hopes and expectations for what it meant to be a Messianic Jew.

Messianic Jewboy said:

What I'm told is the goal wasn't Judaism but more of being able to autonomously maintain Jewish identity from the various denominations that Hebrew Christians were part of.

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Well, the short observation is, "goals change". It depends upon who you ask, what time period you're looking at, and what role the individual had in which organization.

I've read minutes from the MJAA leadership meetings from the 30's and 40's, where the name change was suggested--that they change the premise and direction from "Hebrew-Christian Alliance" to "Messianic Jewish Alliance". That demonstrates that there was already a push to alter the direction and mentality of the movement from being "Christians who happen to be Jewish" to "Jews who happen to be Christian".

Yes, on a personal level, that doesn't carry any real indication of religious practice. But on the communal/institutional level, this trajectory lead necessarily to the concept of a Messianic synagogue. You can't have Jews be Jews without carrying over the communal infrastructure. That's what we were talking about yesterday, when we touched on community leaders being prepared to conduct Jewish life-cycle events like weddings, burials, and brises.

In short, Jews being Jews IS Judaism. Neither can exist without the other. Jews who try to play Lone Ranger in a Gentile-oriented community will eventually become unrecognizable as Jews.

Messianic Jewboy said:

Hebrew Christians kept Passover as an example but was a separate thing from the Church. Now with Messianic Judaism completely autonomous and being able to have a Seder in the Messianic synagogue.

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I have to give credit to a fellow whose name I don't even remember for setting my own direction back in 1985. I was attending "The King's College" just north of New York City. When Passover came, I was invited to join a congregation in New Jersey for a "Christ in the Passover" celebration. I was young in the Messianic Perspective at that time. This was the first congregation where I saw the potential for living out a Jewish community in authentically Jewish expression. That model just struck me as so obviouly right that it has guided my vision and direction ever since.

Messianic Jewboy said:

I'd like to say and this is important that the pioneer's I talked from what I'm told never in their wildest dreams that non Jews would be attracted.

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I remember when I first met Barry Rubin at Emmanuel Congregation, in Baltimore. He didn't know what to do with me. At first, he tried to dissuade me from attending. Once I committed to staying there, it seemed like he expected me to be completely contrary in my thinking. Everything was said and done with a question mark behind it! He didn't know how to interact with me. Every yiddish word was followed by, "Do you know that term?" Every discussion regarding celebrating the holy days was followed by furtive glance, as though he expected me to object. He always seemed surprised that I encouraged doing things in Jewish ways. Why, I fit in better with his vision for a true merging of Yeshua with Jewish identity and practice than many of our Jewish members!

So, yes, we all come to this idea of what constitutes a Messianic Judaism from different starting points... and we all hold to different ideas of what constitutes the "correct" end game.

I will gladly share my own reasoning, based on Scripture and the teaching/model of the first century believers. I believe strongly that the premise of the entire Bible is the restoration/regathering of Israel. From the giving of Torah at Sinai, it was anticipated that Gentiles would join to Israel as partners in this venture. The prophets repeatedly describe how Gentiles will come to Jerusalem to worship, and to learn how to serve Hashem. Israel will not be restored until sufficient Gentiles support their return that the nations literaly carry Israel back home on their shoulders!

It is my belief that this is the eventual goal and mission of Messianic Judaism--to serve as the core for the restoration of Israel by forging a Judaism that brings together Jews and Gentiles in a shared venture, together serving Hashem according to his instructions in the Torah.

That's why I so strongly support ideas like complete integration, Torah for all, and Israel as the centerpiece for a planetary empire, where everyone on earth will acknowledge the Israeli King when he sets up his throne in Zion. This is the vision of the prophets. This is the vision of Yeshua. This is the vision of Paul. This is my vision.

Messianic Jewboy said:

What happens to movements is that different views start happening then you have Baptists, Lutheran etc.

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Sadly, yes. Movements do tend to splinter and degenerate into in-fighting and segregation. That's why I consider the advocacy of bi-polar ecclesiology so destructive. It runs contrary to the vision of all the Biblical writers, and the vision of the global empire under Yeshua. This isn't just about denominationalism--I think it is postponing the implementatino of Yeshua's reign over the whole earth.

MadMaxData said:

I'm well aware of that, which is why I asked the question. The portion I quoted made it sound like there are elements of ritual circumcision found in Scripture, but there aren't...

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Israel is not the only nation that practiced circumcision from ancient times. It doesn't take tradition to know how to perform them, because it is a common procedure almost anywhere in the world.