Art Model

[faroukfarouk]

I am not speaking about myself and my friends, the fact that women are less visual than men is scientifically proven. Of course there are exceptions.

And another thing is, How would great painters such as Rembrandt and Rubens have learned to paint so well if they had not practised drawing real people?

 

[faroukfarouk]

One of my MD friends told me that when she was in medical school the med students served as patients to be examined by their fellow students. Her male counterparts saw her nude. She saw them nude. They also had outside people come on for examinations during which those people were naked. Doctors see people nude; it is part of their training as med students.

Artists have to have an understanding of the human body in order to properly paint the body. Painting nudes is part of their training. There is nothing wrong with being an artist and painting a nude, not is there anything wrong with posing as a nude model.

In any case, often the model has a drape across his or her midsection; so there are levels of nudity also. Context and purpose are important also.

 

[RaymondG]

Raymond, there is no way to get back to those times.
What you are longing for, is the innocence of babyhood. Before you knew right from wrong.
That was the state of the naked Adam and Eve in the garden, before they ate the fruit.

But since humans fell, we know instinctively there is a difference between right and wrong.
And we will always know that difference. Even in heaven.

Satan tempted Eve by trying to get her to doubt the wisdom of God's instructions to her.

He is tempting you to think the same way about God.

When Adam and Eve felt guilty, they made fig leaf aprons for themselves.
As soon as they knew good from evil, they knew clothes were a good idea.

When God showed up on the scene, did he tell them they were mistaken about needing clothes? No.
Instead, He told them those fig leaf aprons were NOT ENOUGH!

And this issue of NOT ENOUGH CLOTHES was so big to God, that He shed the first blood ever shed on the earth, to make coats of animal skins, to cover those first humans.

That's how important it was to God, that the first humans got the message about what constituted proper clothing.

Not just their private parts. And not just females.
BOTH man and woman. And more than fig leaves sewed together, to make little aprons.

And it still matters that much to God, how much we cover our bodies.

You and I are not given the option by God to make up our own rules about whether fig leaf equivalents are okay. God said once they aren't. And when God says something, once is enough.

When we get to heaven, we won't go around naked. We will be wearing robes.
Sorry if that offends you, but it's the Bible.

You are right.... except a man become as a little child, he can in no wise enter the kingdom.
I posted nothing relating to physical nakedness. If you want my views on the OP, view my first post. If you feel that the Naked and not ashamed in Genesis is talking about physical nakedness, then our biblical understandings are too far apart to make any further dialogue fruitful.

Thanks for your reply and it is respected.

 

[wyatt1111]

Nobody answered these questions and it seems people that are not very educated on figurative art are jumping to the conclusion that it is on par with pornography or that it is sexual.

I am going to repost the questions I asked earlier.

Is it sinful to go to an art museum or to see other cultures that may be in the nude?

Should an attractive woman never leave her home because of the possibility of causing a small percentage of men to lust (probably a higher percentage than artists trying to perfect their craft).

Also, nobody answered the story of Isaiah being asked to preach in the nude? Could this not have caused women that saw him preaching to stumble? Are all sinners not capable of seeing the opposite sex clothed or unclothed and lusting?

It seems those that say it is sinful are either just using the argument that I should automatically assume this as sinful or they are picking small parts of the Bible that associate nudity with humiliation. As in the case of Noah where he was also drunkenly nude (completely different) and unaware of his nudity (again different).

 

[wyatt1111]

Is it not a contradiction to say that the human form depicted in sculptures and paintings isn't sinful to view but the person that made that art possible is in fact sinning by participating in the artistic process?

 

[wyatt1111]

One more thought. People keep asking if it is honoring God to do this. Is it honoring God to watch TV or to eat ice cream?

 

[Meowzltov]

I have no problem with nude models.

 

[wyatt1111]

I have no problem with nude models.

Art models or any type of nude model?

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Hi everyone,

I have a question. I am a married artist and am wondering what your thoughts are on a christian modeling in the nude for a figure drawing class? Is this completely unacceptable? Would this be forbidden in a marriage even though it is not sexual? I am just curious to see how it would be perceived within a CHristian Community.

Look forward to some insight as I have been asked to do this but not sure as a Christian if this is "sin" if there are no alterior motives other than helping artists improve their drawing skills.

You don’t have to be a social psychologist or sexual addiction expert to understand that people (especially men) lust after others rather easily. Just look at the exponential proliferation of pornography and sexual addictions. Modesty (here we are talking about sexuality) has always been a Christian virtue. Not today in western cultures. No artist should be engaged in such things and no model should expose themselves. Immodesty and lust are so prevalent in the west that we have become desensitized to it.

“Things are getting worse very quickly now. The list of what we are required to approve is growing ever longer. Consider just the domain of sexual practice. First we were to approve sex before marriage, then without marriage, now against marriage. First with one, then with a series, now with a crowd. First with the other sex, then with the same. First between adults, then between children, then between adults and children. The last item has not been added yet, but will be soon: you can tell from the change in language, just as you can tell the approach of winter from the change in the color of leaves.
As any sin passes through its stages from temptation, to toleration, to approval, its name is first euphemized, then avoided, then forgotten. A colleague tells me that some of his fellow legal scholars call child molestation "intergenerational intimacy": that’s euphemism. A good-hearted editor tried to talk me out of using the term "sodomy": that’s avoidance. My students don’t know the word "fornication" at all: that’s forgetfulness.” (From J. Budziszewski, “The Revenge of Conscience,” First Things, June/July, 1998, pp. 21-27)
[The Revenge of Conscience | J. Budziszewski]

Has your conscience been compromised by the norms accepted by your culture? Of course it has, whether you are aware of it or not. The morally 'disordering' influence of the media is more subtle and insidious than direct incitement. What happens to all of us, unless our powers of moral judgment are perfectly acute and alert, is that our understanding of what is 'normal' begins to be modified. Under the impression that 'everybody does it', and that nobody nowadays believes much in absolutes of truth and goodness, our defenses are lowered and our values are imperceptibly altered.

 

[wyatt1111]

How is art modeling in any way equated to sex? If someone lusts in an art class after a model isn't that their own sin? And aren't they just as capable to lust after someone that is clothed?

I am adamantly against the sins you mentioned but that does not equate to art modeling as being a sin... How is it compromising your faith and values if it is not CLEARLY spoken against in the Bible? Fornication, and other sins you mention are CLEARLY spoken of as sin and there is no room for compromise. Tell me where it says in the Bible that nudity in itself is sinful and then answer my question about Isaiah. I am only asking this question because it is unclear and nobody on this board has provided anything close to a clear answer or reason that this would be sinful to do. Some people saying that I should know this is sinful but not giving me any biblical/foundational reason for why I should know this is wrong.

You don’t have to be a social psychologist or sexual addiction expert to understand that people (especially men) lust after others rather easily. Just look at the exponential proliferation of pornography and sexual addictions. Modesty (here we are talking about sexuality) has always been a Christian virtue. Not today in western cultures. No artist should be engaged in such things and no model should expose themselves. Immodesty and lust are so prevalent in the west that we have become desensitized to it.

“Things are getting worse very quickly now. The list of what we are required to approve is growing ever longer. Consider just the domain of sexual practice. First we were to approve sex before marriage, then without marriage, now against marriage. First with one, then with a series, now with a crowd. First with the other sex, then with the same. First between adults, then between children, then between adults and children. The last item has not been added yet, but will be soon: you can tell from the change in language, just as you can tell the approach of winter from the change in the color of leaves.
As any sin passes through its stages from temptation, to toleration, to approval, its name is first euphemized, then avoided, then forgotten. A colleague tells me that some of his fellow legal scholars call child molestation "intergenerational intimacy": that’s euphemism. A good-hearted editor tried to talk me out of using the term "sodomy": that’s avoidance. My students don’t know the word "fornication" at all: that’s forgetfulness.” (From J. Budziszewski, “The Revenge of Conscience,” First Things, June/July, 1998, pp. 21-27)
[The Revenge of Conscience | J. Budziszewski]

Has your conscience been compromised by the norms accepted by your culture? Of course it has, whether you are aware of it or not. The morally 'disordering' influence of the media is more subtle and insidious than direct incitement. What happens to all of us, unless our powers of moral judgment are perfectly acute and alert, is that our understanding of what is 'normal' begins to be modified. Under the impression that 'everybody does it', and that nobody nowadays believes much in absolutes of truth and goodness, our defenses are lowered and our values are imperceptibly altered.

 

[wyatt1111]

So did Isaiah sin in this situation?

Isaiah 20:2-4King James Version (KJV)
2 At the same time spake the Lord by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, Go and loose the sackcloth from off thy loins, and put off thy shoe from thy foot. And he did so, walking naked and barefoot.

3 And the Lord said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia;

How is art modeling in any way equated to sex? If someone lusts in an art class after a model isn't that their own sin? And aren't they just as capable to lust after someone that is clothed?

I am adamantly against the sins you mentioned but that does not equate to art modeling as being a sin... How is it compromising your faith and values if it is not CLEARLY spoken against in the Bible? Fornication, and other sins you mention are CLEARLY spoken of as sin and there is no room for compromise. Tell me where it says in the Bible that nudity in itself is sinful and then answer my question about Isaiah. I am only asking this question because it is unclear and nobody on this board has provided anything close to a clear answer or reason that this would be sinful to do. Some people saying that I should know this is sinful but not giving me any biblical/foundational reason for why I should know this is wrong.

 

[wyatt1111]

Nobody seems capable of answering the specific questions I asked and showing CLEARLY that are modeling in a professional setting is sinful according to the Bible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nobody seems capable of answering the specific questions I asked and showing CLEARLY that are modeling in a professional setting is sinful according to the Bible.

The Bible is not a book whereby it teaches that you can get away with things that you question morally on a forum. If your conscience was not 100% clear about this, you wouldn't be asking on a forum and or still talking about it. There are many things that are wrong that are not described in the Bible. Bread crumbs in Scripture give us the clue that being a nude model does not exactly line up with loving God and loving your neighbor (Which is of the two greatest commandments). For God covered man with clothes for a reason after the fall. Also, potentially making somebody to stumble by your nakedness (even in a professional setting) is not loving towards your neighbor. Sure, it may be rare. But it can happen. See, the difference between a person lusting after another with clothes on versus (vs.) lusting after them without clothes on, is that being nude is a means to excite people. It's why men go to strip clubs. It's why men like to see their wife without clothes on when they make love. It's why women go to strip clubs. Yes, they do exist. Nakedness is tied to sexuality. You cannot pick up a magazine of naked people like Playboy and not think about the wrong thing. People that care about other people more than their own needs will decide to play it safe so as to not to hurt them. There is a verse that says I can do all things thru Christ which strengthens me. Can you honestly say that this something that Christ would want to work thru you? I sincerely don't think so.

...

 

[wyatt1111]

Again, not a strip club, not playboy. Art drawing anatomy class... Not a setting where people are there to drink and lust but an educational setting. Are you opposed to art museums? And why not answer the question I asked. I am only continuing on this thread because the arguments I have heard are coming from the mouths of men and not the bible.

The Bible is not a book whereby it teaches that you can get away with things that you question morally on a forum. If your conscience was not 100% clear about this, you wouldn't be asking on a forum and or still talking about it. There are many things that are wrong that are not described in the Bible. Bread crumbs in Scripture give us the clue that being a nude model does not exactly line up with loving God and loving your neighbor (Which is of the two greatest commandments). For God covered man with clothes for a reason after the fall. Also, potentially making somebody to stumble by your nakedness (even in a professional setting) is not loving towards your neighbor. Sure, it may be rare. But it can happen. See, the difference between a person lusting after another with clothes on versus (vs.) lusting after them without clothes on, is that being nude is a means to excite people. It's why men go to strip clubs. It's why men like to see their wife without clothes on when they make love. It's why women go to strip clubs. Yes, they do exist. Nakedness is tied to sexuality. You cannot pick up a magazine of naked people like Playboy and not think about the wrong thing. People that care about other people more than their own needs will decide to play it safe so as to not to hurt them. There is a verse that says I can do all things thru Christ which strengthens me. Can you honestly say that this something that Christ would want to work thru you? I sincerely don't think so.

...

 

[wyatt1111]

The more answers I seem to be getting the more it clearly demonstrates to me that this is in no way sinful according to the bible and only viewed as sin by self righteousness.

 

[aiki]

Modern western cultures have not taken a biblical view of public nudity, that's for sure. I suppose this is to be expected in cultures saturated by porn and promiscuity as so many are today. And Christians arguing for such stuff is a testament to just how far from biblical Christianity believers have drifted, carried along by the ever-darkening currents of secular society.

Drawing nudes smacks of the evil of Romans 1:25 in a way drawing a horse, or a boat, or a landscape never could. The fundamental cause of human sin is a disposition toward Self-centeredness, toward pride and rebellion against God manifested in a preoccupation with the human rather than the divine. This rebellious preoccupation seems particularly evident to me in the drawing of the nude human form. No where in Scripture is there even a hint that looking on the nude form of another person who is not one's spouse is an appropriate (and definitely not recommended) act. We are urged in the Bible to look away from earthly, carnal things, and look instead upon Christ and consider things eternal and spiritual (He. 12:1, 2; Col. 3:1-3) Yes, yes, I know we may have to get naked for a doctor, but apart from doing so out of medical necessity there is no morally-acceptable reason offered in Scripture to be publicly nude.

What's more, at least for men, the nude female form is sexually arousing, even if the arousal is mild and easily stifled. Certainly, having to stare very carefully at another person's body and take in every curve, and crease, and shade is not conducive to pure thinking.

I am a pretty skilled artist (nwaikikai.deviantart.com) and know very well what is involved in creating detailed, true-to-life art. I have considered working from nudes in order to better render the human form but as a Christian I just cannot see that doing so would be honoring to my Heavenly Father and helpful in becoming more like Christ - both of which things are far, far, far more important than being able to draw a naked person.

Selah.

 

[aiki]

The more answers I seem to be getting the more it clearly demonstrates to me that this is in no way sinful according to the bible and only viewed as sin by self righteousness.

It seems pretty evident to me that you're simply seeing what you want to see in the responses you're getting.

Selah.

 

[wyatt1111]

I just don't understand why nobody answers my questions.

Modern western cultures have not taken a biblical view of public nudity, that's for sure. I suppose this is to be expected in cultures saturated by porn and promiscuity as so many are today. And Christians arguing for such stuff is a testament to just how far from biblical Christianity believers have drifted, carried along by the ever-darkening currents of secular society.

Drawing nudes smacks of the evil of Romans 1:25 in a way drawing a horse, or a boat, or a landscape never could. The fundamental cause of human sin is a disposition toward Self-centeredness, toward pride and rebellion against God manifested in a preoccupation with the human rather than the divine. This rebellious preoccupation seems particularly evident to me in the drawing of the nude human form. No where in Scripture is there even a hint that looking on the nude form of another person who is not one's spouse is an appropriate (and definitely not recommended) act. We are urged in the Bible to look away from earthly, carnal things, and look instead upon Christ and consider things eternal and spiritual (He. 12:1, 2; Col. 3:1-3) Yes, yes, I know we may have to get naked for a doctor, but apart from doing so out of medical necessity there is no morally-acceptable reason offered in Scripture to be publicly nude outside of your own home.

What's more, at least for men, the nude female form is sexually arousing, even if the arousal is mild and easily stifled. Certainly, having to stare very carefully at another person's body and take in every curve, and crease, and shade is not conducive to pure thinking.

I am a pretty skilled artist (nwaikikai.deviantart.com) and know very well what is involved in creating detailed, true-to-life art. I have considered working from nudes in order to better render the human form but as a Christian I just cannot see that doing so would be honoring to my Heavenly Father and helpful in becoming more like Christ - both of which things are far, far, far more important than being able to draw a naked person.

Selah.

 

[aiki]

My first post answered your OP very directly. Maybe you should re-read it.

Selah.

 

[wyatt1111]

It seems pretty evident to me that you're simply seeing what you want to see in the responses you're getting.

Selah.

It seems to me my questions have been ignored time and time again. Why was Isaiah commanded to preach naked for three years? God would lot command someone to sin. Answer this...