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Arsenokoites

Ananel

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Polycarp1 said:
(snipped for space)

I believe that Dr. Martin's contextual and more importantly form and usage-based arguments partially support your assessment of the meaning of arsenokoites in the case of 1 Corithians 6:9, in light of the presence of malakos. This is why I prefer 'pederast' as a translation. However, the usage studies of Martin do indicate that even this clarity may be lacking in the term. Clear-cut and definite translations of this term are dicey at best. ( http:// www. clgs. org /5/5_4_3.html serves as a source, link altered as before.)

I personally view the term to be too vague and without definitive links to say for sure the intended meaning. There is a distinct lack of immediate context to indicate the meaning of the term. As to whether or not it is sexual, I have no issues saying that it is. That much etymology I will yield to. However, I don't know that we can truly be sure that a direct transliteration of Leviticus 20, plus merger of the words and attendant intention of repitition of meaning, is exactly what Paul intended, not without corraborating form/usage evidence. As there are no contextually loaded cases for Paul, we have to rely on the other period writers, which takes us back to Martin's study. I find the term unclear at best.
 
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Brennin

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Ananel said:
I chose not to give a detailed account of a case so as not to saturate this thread with a two-page long exegetical analysis of an unrelated case. I felt that an illustration, in light of the academic evidence presented as a specific case by Dr. Martin, served as evidence. However, you appear to deny even the existence of the root fallacy as an exegetical fallacy, despite its presence within standard texts on translational process. Fine, you desire specific cases of such an error with more detailed analysis? From the same text (Exegetical Fallacies, pp. 29-30):

Now that is a legitimate illustration of your point. I will have to research hyperetes for myself.




The Root Fallacy is a standard fallacy, known and accepted as a false methodology, unless backed up by evidence other than raw etymology and a person's personal logic. Dr. Martin presents cases of usage that identify arsenokoites as having other uses than would indicate homosexuality itself.

He did no such thing.

The NIV translation of the term in 1 Timothy 1:10 as "pervert" indicates furthermore that many scholars of note agree that its meaning is not 100% as clear from raw etymology.

1. Homoeroticism (especially male homoeroticism) is a perversion, so that particular translation does not help your case.

2. Paul did not author 1 Timothy.
 
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SimplyMe

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Brennin said:
Now that is a legitimate illustration of your point. I will have to research hyperetes for myself.






He did no such thing.



1. Homoeroticism (especially male homoeroticism) is a perversion, so that particular translation does not help your case.

2. Paul did not author 1 Timothy.

That's news to me, and I think Paul would be shocked to learn he didn't write 1 Timothy. Then again I always believed the verses:

1 Timothy 1:1-2 said:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
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Brennin

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SimplyMe said:
That's news to me, and I think Paul would be shocked to learn he didn't write 1 Timothy. Then again I always believed the verses:

That would only be news to someone who is not versed in New Testament scholarship.
 
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SimplyMe

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Brennin said:
That would only be news to someone who is not versed in New Testament scholarship.

I understand that some have attempted to dispute 1 Timothy, however at this point it is a minority opinion. Bible.org has a good summary of the argument but concludes:

bible.org said:
In sum, although the evidence against the authenticity of the pastorals is as strong as any evidence against the authenticity of any NT book (save 2 Peter), it still cannot overthrow the traditional view.
 
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Brennin

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SimplyMe said:
I understand that some have attempted to dispute 1 Timothy, however at this point it is a minority opinion. Bible.org has a good summary of the argument but concludes:

It is not a "minority opinion." It is, in fact, the mainstream opinion.

Thank you for further demonstrating my point.
 
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SimplyMe

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Brennin said:
It is not a "minority opinion." It is, in fact, the mainstream opinion.

Thank you for further demonstrating my point.

Hmm... so "it still cannot overthrow the traditional view" proves your point? You have an interesting definition of proof.
 
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Brennin

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SimplyMe said:
Hmm... so "it still cannot overthrow the traditional view" proves your point? You have an interesting definition of proof.

Your assertion that my position re: the authorship of 1 Timothy is the "minority" position belies your lack of knowledge concerning NT scholarship.

BTW, one of the basic rules of academia is that internet sources cannot always be trusted.
 
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Ave Maria

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From Strongs:

Strongs said:
G733
ἀρσενοκοίτης
arsenokoitēs
ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace
From G730 and G2845; a sodomite: - abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.

From American Heritage Dictionary:

American Heritage Dictionary said:
sod·om·ite Pronunciation (sd-mt)
n.
One who engages in sodomy.

American Heritage Dictionary said:
sod·om·y Pronunciation (sd-m)
n.
Any of various forms of sexual intercourse held to be unnatural or abnormal, especially anal intercourse or bestiality.

American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary said:
sod·om·y (sd-m)
n.
1. Anal copulation of one male with another.
2. Anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex.
3. Copulation with an animal.
 
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Annoula

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ebia said:
Do you admit that the meaning of compound words in Greek can not always be accurately worked out from their parts?

So far your evidence seems to consist of:
  • Some compound words in Greek can be derived from their parts
.....


i don't know if the topic with the Greek has been finished but because i am a native Greek speaker and student of ancient Greek i have to say that the Greek compound words ALWAYS have their meaning derived from the combination of the 2 words. this is what makes the Greek language an endless language meaning that new vocabulary can come up by combining 2 words, today.


some examples:

θεο-φόρος = theo-foros = god - carrier
υπο-λογιστής = ypo-logistis (computer) = sub - account
τριχό-πτωση = trixo-ptosi = hair - falling
 
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Ananel

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Brennin said:
It is not a "minority opinion." It is, in fact, the mainstream opinion.

Thank you for further demonstrating my point.

SimplyMe, you'll have to excuse me but Brennin is quite correct. The predominate position, though non-orthodox, is that 1 Timothy is not Pauline itself. I do not hold to that viewpoint myself, but frankly consider the isagogical arguments that would ensue on a discourse over the authorship of the pastoral epistles to be not only meaningless but not pertinent to the current debate.

His potshot, therefore, is one that is worth ignoring. For your purposes, sir, replace "Paul" with "Unclear author who claims to be Paul." The argument remains.
 
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Ananel

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Brennin said:
1. Homoeroticism (especially male homoeroticism) is a perversion, so that particular translation does not help your case.

There is a difference between the meaning of the words "Pervert" and "Homosexual." (Source cited: www.dictionary.com or any dictionary you want.) If arsenokoites accurately translates as "Pervert" and not "homosexual offender," then it rather decidedly helps my case, which is that arsenokoites is not "homosexual offender."
 
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Argent

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Brennin said:
Who is this person that I should care what he says? I provided other examples of compound words with aµrshn in them and all of them have to do with men (which should come as no surprise) and koitos is a cognate of coitus (as in coitus interruptus). Also, if this no-name you cited wants to make a point he needs to make recourse to an Ancient Greek word, not a modern English word.

You can be assured this person is a liberal "theologian" who twists and turns the Gospel to justify homosexual sex acts. Very bad idea.
 
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Brennin

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Ananel said:
There is a difference between the meaning of the words "Pervert" and "Homosexual." (Source cited: www.dictionary.com or any dictionary you want.)

There is a difference in that the former includes the latter and is thus a more general term.

If arsenokoites accurately translates as "Pervert" and not "homosexual offender," then it rather decidedly helps my case, which is that arsenokoites is not "homosexual offender."

How the NIV chooses to translate the word in 1 Timothy is irrelevant to the meaning Paul ascribed to it, since he did not author the Pastorals.
 
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Polycarp1

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How to tell a "bad" Biblical scholar: He's one whose studies have led him to a conclusion that disagrees with our interrperetation. :doh:Argent, it would be as easy to say that a bad scholar is one who twists the Good News of salvation through Christ Jesus into a condemnation of scapegoat groups among our fellow men, as many conservative preachers do, to their own judgment. I am interested, not in rationalizing some humanistic feelgood doctrine or some Pharasaic legalism vaguely based in the Bible, but in doing the commandments of my Lord and Savior. And to me the ostracizing of gay people on the basis of out-of-context Biblical prooftexting is as execrable an abomination against the Gospel as is the reduction of it to a generalized "Be nice to everyone" porridge.

Actually, I agree with Brennin that arsenokoites means "male-bedder" and is almost certainly a Pauline coinage to translate as literally as possible the meaning "violator of the commandment in Leviticus 18:22" where the literal Hebrew is "Thou shalt not lie with a man the lyings as with a woman."

For me, the sole issue is, what did Leviticus and Paul mean by this usage? If Scripture commands against it, we surely should all abstain from it. But what exactly was it that Scripture addresses? And Leviticus 18:1 makes clear that the commands are against "abominable things which the Canaanites do" -- in several cases specifically sexual acts performed in idolatry, as in sacrificing one's child to Molech (Lev 18:21, the verse before the one always argued).

Whatever one may mean by "the gay lifestyle," I've seen absolutely no evidence that it includes cultic temple prostitution to Ba'al or Astarte.
 
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Brennin

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Polycarp1 said:
Actually, I agree with Brennin that arsenokoites means "male-bedder" and is almost certainly a Pauline coinage to translate as literally as possible the meaning "violator of the commandment in Leviticus 18:22" where the literal Hebrew is "Thou shalt not lie with a man the lyings as with a woman."

I commend you for your honesty. You are a Liberal Christian I can respect.
 
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Ananel

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Brennin said:
Martin is a pseudoscholar.

Let me be blunt. This is your view one that is not even the view of predominate and solid orthodox thinkers in this topic. In responding to a completely different man, Dan O. Via, in the book Homosexuality and the Bible-Two Views, Robert Gagnon ( http://www.robgagnon.net/ this man.) makes reference to one of the older cases of Dale Martin on a particular point. His reference is side-long, by way of a citation of previous work and a brief counterpoint, but it presents something: Dale Martin is not a man who is put aside as meaningless or a pseudoscholar. He is a scholar who is directly responded to on the merits of his viewpoints by doctorates on the orthodox side of this picture.

Robert A. Gagnon said:
c. The severe penalty imposed for being a malakos (exclusion from the kingdom of God), which suggests a form of effeminacy well beyond the stereotypical limp wrist (contra Martin 1996, 124-129)
(p. 82, of previously cited text.)

You are flagrantly off-base, unjustified in your position, unbacked in forms of evidence and out of line. Worse, the scholars who support the orthodox standpoint of Christian theology regarding homosexuality do not appear to agree in their treatment of Martin, rather dealing with him as one deals with a colleague stringently disagreed with, rather than a pseudoscholar. You have offered nothing (not next to nothing) in favor of your actual interpretation. You haven't even presented cases related to the context of 1 Timothy 1:10 and its relation to the Law of Moses, a center-point of the actual etymological case of Arsenokoites (If not the only major point in favor of a purely etymological basis for defining the term.).

Your hipshot reactions add nothing to these discussions. You and I are the pseudoscholars here, not Dr. Martin. I am in my Master's program, having concluded one and working on the second prior to doctoral studies. I am at this stage in no position to claim full scholarly rights, nor will I likely ever do so. I am certainly in no position to consider myself on par with men such as Via, Martin, Gagnon, Hayes and Veith, much less flippantly discount ANY of them as pseudoscholars. I will not do so. These are men with whom I have significant disagreements at points (all of them, including Martin and very pointedly Via.), but each is a solid, hard-working Christian who plumbs the word in one fashion or form, searching for the truth of God's Will.

You overstep your rights, brother. Not one shred of evidence do you give when you insult men, and I would remind you that it was Christ himself who said, "Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:22b, NIV, care of biblegateway) Warning a brother of improper behavior is one thing. Insulting them from afar without evidence is another entirely.
 
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Brennin

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TheGMan said:
Looks like it's from Perseus although, as I've already pointed out, Brennin is being a little disingenuous as there's actually no way to get from koitos to -koitai.

Koitai, which is the ending Paul uses, is feminine.

From the BGreek archive:

At 7:49 AM -0600 3/7/00, Steven Craig Miller wrote:
>To: Stephen C. Carlson (or anyone else),
>
>SCC: << "Male-bedder," as in one who beds males, would be more like it. >>
>
>Here is my question, which I've wondered about. Is it theoretically
>possible that the form (or the ending of) ARSENOKOITAI could be feminine?
>If so, could you cite some similar examples?

Well, what gender would a female-impersonator who beds a male be?
AMFISBAION? OUDETERON? Actually, I can't see any reason why there couldn't
be a feminine ARSENOKOITA although I'd guess the Doric dialect form of
ARSENOKOITHS would be ARSENOKOITAS for the masculine.

Reminds me of the part in Aristophanes' Clouds where Strepsiades is taught
by Socrates that he can form the feminine of "rooster" by changing the
ending -WN in ALEKTRUWN to -AINA to make ALEKTRUAINA, "roosteress." Would a
feminine ARSENOKOITA be a "roosteress" too, perhaps?

>Carl,
>
>I am just curious. Why do we have the lexical form as
>ARSENOKOITHS if there is not an occurrence of this
>anywhere? Could the lexical form not be ARSENOKOITA
>and it be a feminine word? Or is there another
>occurrence of this word that has not been produced to
>me yet?

You will have seen Daniel RiaÒo's brief note by now. The simple fact of the
matter is that I was aiming at humor, a simple fact that went unnoticed in
this thread's long wild goose chase of trivia. No, I don't seriously think
a form ARSENOKOITA is likely to have existed anymore than ALEKTRUAINA,
"roosteress," unless it were to be found in a satire of Lucian or in a
deliberate piece of literary humor comparable to Aristophanes' Clouds. The
lexical form is ARSENOKOITHS simply because that's found in a significant
frequently-read text, namely the GNT.

Carl Conrad is an emeritus professor of Classics.
 
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NateBlack

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From my friend Justin Cannon at truthsetsfree.net...

Passage II: 1 Timothy 1:8-10

“Now we know that the law is good, if any one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, immoral persons, sodomites, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine…” (RSV)

Let us keep in mind that the word translated as sodomites is the Greek word arsenokoitai. Right now we should ask, “What exactly does this word mean?” Often when writing lists, common things are grouped together. Looking closely at 1 Timothy 1:9-10, we can see that there are what I will call ‘structural pairs’ that are reflected below in the English as well as in the Greek–the original language of the New Testament.

1 Timothy 1:9-10 (RSV) – English
Row A:
lawless and disobedient
Row B:
ungodly and sinners
Row C:
unholy and profane
Row D:
murderers of fathers murderers of mothers manslayers
Row E:
immoral persons sodomites kidnappers
Row F:
liars perjurers…


1 Timothy 1:9-10 (RSV) - Greek
Row A:
anomoi kai anupotaktoi
Row B:
asebesin kai amartwloi
Row C:
anosioi kai bebhloi
Row D:
patralwai mhtralwai androfonoi
Row E:
pornoi arsenokoitai andrapodistai
Row F:
yeustai epiorkoi

As you will notice there seems to be a relationship between the words in each row. The chart below illustrates that the words in each row are either synonyms or closely related in some manner:
Row A:
lawless & disobedient
= two synonyms
Row B:
ungodly & sinners
= two synonyms
Row C:
unholy & profane
= two synonyms
Row D:
murderers of fathers, murderers of mothers, manslayers
=three types of murderers
Row F:
liars & perjurers
= two synonyms

But what about row E? What do “immoral persons, sodomites, and kidnappers” have in common? To answer this question beyond a shadow of a doubt, we will need to explore the Greek. The three Greek words present in line E are: pornoi (pornoi), arsenokoitai (arsenokoitai), and andrapodistai (andrapodistai).
Some commonly read Bible translations include the King James Version (KJV), New International Version (NIV), New King James (NKJ), Revised Standard Version (RSV), and New English Bible (NEB). These words were, respectively, translated in the following manner:


pornoi


arsenokoitai


andrapodistai

KJV:

whoremonger


“them that defile themselves with mankind”


men-stealers​

NIV:

adulterers


perverts


slave traders​

NKJ:

fornicators


sodomites


kidnappers​

RSV:

immoral persons


sodomites


kidnappers​

NEB:

fornicators


perverts


kidnappers​




As we see there is no clear-cut agreement as to what these words mean, though the above translations agree on the general sense of such words. To determine the precise meanings, we will use a lexicon. A lexicon is a scholarly dictionary used to determine the meaning of biblical words. A search through the online Greek lexicon available at searchgodsword.org gives the following information on the Greek term pornos, which is the stem of the word pornoi, the first of the three words:

Pornos derives from the verb pernemi meaning “to sell” and the following three definitions are given:
1. a male who prostitutes his body to another’s lust for hire
2. a male prostitute
3. a male who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator

Andrapodistes, the stem of the word Andrapodistai, the third word, returns the following definitions:
1. slave-dealer, kidnapper, man-stealer
a. of one who unjustly reduces free males to slavery
b. of one who steals the slaves of others and sells them.

Arsenokoitai, as previously indicated, is made up of the Greek words for male (arseno-) and beds(koitai). In Greek, the word koitai, literally meaning beds,is commonly used as a euphemism for one who has sex. Arseno- is an adjectival prefix, thus literally we could translate this as “a man who has sex” or “male bedder.”

We have, first of all, a male prostitute, the “male-bedder” (arsenokoitai), and the slave dealer. The New American Bible offers a footnote that might shed some light on the historical context of the time:

“The Greek word translated as boy prostitutes may refer to catamites, i.e. boys or young men who were kept for the purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world. In Greek mythology this was the function of Ganymede, the “cupbearer of the gods,” whose Latin name was Catamus…” (New American Bible)

It was a common practice in that men of Paul’s time would have slave “pet” boys whom they sexually exploited. Dr. Ralph Blair explains, “The desired boys were prepubescent or at least without beards so that they seemed like females.”3 Today, this practice is referred to as pederasty. Regardless, we know the pornos is a prostitute.

Keeping this in mind, let’s look back at what we have so far: the enslaved male prostitute, the “male-bedder” (arsenokoitai), and the slave dealer. This contextual dynamic leads one to understand arsenokoitai as being the one who sleeps with the prostitute—the man who literally lies on the bed with him. It is as if Paul were saying,
“male prostitutes, males who lie [with them], and slave dealers [who procure them].”2 Not only does the syntactical and historical context point to this understanding, but also the very literal sense of the word arsenokoitai itself: male bed.

If this translation of arsenokoitai is correct, it should also make logical sense where it is also used in 1 Corinthians 6:9, either confirming or refuting this understanding of arsenokoitai.

Passage III: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.” (RSV)

The term translated “sexual perverts” above is actually two different words. The first word is malakos, which is the singular form of the word malakoi, and the second term is arsenokoitai. Some commonly read translations include…



malakos


arsenokoitai

KJV:

effeminate


abusers of themselves with mankind​

NIV:

male prostitutes


homosexual offenders​

NKJ:

homosexuals


sodomites​

RSV1952:
à homosexuals ß
RSV1977:
à sexual perverts ß
RSV1989:

male prostitutes


sodomites​

Jerusalem Bible:

catamites


sodomites​



The term malakoi, as an adjective, literally means “soft.” In Matthew 11:8 it has been used as an adjective in reference to John the Baptist’s clothing. In this text, however, it is used as a noun and its meaning is debated. Does our understanding of arsenokoitai as revealed in 1 Timothy 1:10 as “men who sleep with male-prostitutes” make sense next to this word malakos which is translated by both NIV and RSV as male prostitutes? The Jerusalem Bible even translates the term malakos as catamites, those young soft prepubescent “pet” boys mentioned earlier. The syntactical and historical context of 1 Timothy 1:10 reveals the meaning of the word arsenokoitai as men who sleep with prostitutes, and the fact this also fits the context of 1 Corinthians 6:9 seems to confirm that we have found the meaning of these obscure words. It makes perfect sense that Paul would rebuke not only the prostitute, but also the “male-bedder” or the man who sleeps with that prostitute.

As we see, these two verses are about this practice of prostitution and possibly pederasty, but what about Romans 1:27. It clearly says, “…and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” Is this not clear enough? There are no obscure Greek words. How are we to understand this?
 
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