Alright, I’ll try to address this again from a couple of vantage points. First, let’s just look at what you’re saying from a logical standpoint. You are equating a person’s belief in a pre-trib rapture (or the teaching of imminence) to taking pleasure in unrighteousness. This means that a person who believes in the pre-trib rapture is guilty of what Paul phrases as taking pleasure in unrighteousness in 2 Th 2:12 according to you.
Now let’s just break this down from a simple point of logic. Under which scenario is a criminal more likely to commit a crime?
Scenario A: The criminal essentially knows where the police tend to be located. They know exactly how long it will take for the police to respond once a call to 911 is made. There are plenty of indicators they can use to let them know about how close the police are at any given moment, and so they know about how long they have to commit the crime, clean up any trace evidence and get away without getting caught.
Scenario B: The police patrol the area randomly, sporadically and frequently. A call to 911 could result in a police response ranging anywhere from 15 seconds to 15 minutes. There are few if any warning signs that they could depend on to let them know how close the police are to arriving at the scene. Therefore it is difficult to know if they will have sufficient time to pull off the caper and escape without getting caught.
Now if people are honest, I think most will say that Scenario A definitely seems more like a criminal’s dream, whereas Scenario B is more of a nightmare. I think most would agree that the criminal would be more likely to attempt the crime in Scenario A than in Scenario B.
Now the notion of a pre-trib rapture would more aptly fit Scenario B. People under this belief system have no sense of exactly when the rapture is going to take place. The Lord’s return could be just around the corner, or it could be another generation or more away. But that constant reminder of not knowing when would most likely lead to an attitude of constant vigilance. They don’t want to let their guard down and fall away only for The Lord to return at that moment and leave them behind.
Now your conclusion is counterintuitive to this. According to your logic, someone who believes in the pre-trib rapture is essentially taking pleasure in unrighteousness and therefore more likely to risk their eternal salvation. This is akin to saying the criminal would be more likely to commit a crime in Scenario B. It just doesn’t make much sense. The idea of imminence should logically serve as a deterrent to sin and unrighteousness rather than an invitation to it.
Now, while this is logical, it does not change what Scripture plainly reveals about Christ’s return. However, it does serve to demonstrate the effect believing such a thing should have on the one who believes it. The effect should be desirable in most cases, not undesirable.
Now let’s return to Scripture and see what attitude we are warned against having regarding the coming of our Lord.
“But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.” (Luke 12:45-46)
“But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Mat 24:48-51)
Now if we look at this parable, we see that the attitude of the evil servant is that his lord delays his coming. Now simply thinking this isn’t what gets him into trouble. He gets into trouble because of what he chooses to do now that he has convinced himself that his lord delays his arrival. He chooses to kill his fellow servants (betrayal). He pursues his wicked desires (fulfills his own lusts; goes into unrighteousness). When his lord arrives, he is judged accordingly. However, the attitude he had was not one of imminence, it was one of an expectant delay on the part of his master. He figured he had some time to kill. He had a desire to go out and sin and live it up. He may have even figured he could get it all straightened out and tidied up before his master actually arrived.
Now what attitude are we admonished to have?
“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.” (Mat 24:42-44)
We are instructed to watch. We are instructed to remain vigilant and be ever ready because we do not know what hour our Lord will come for us. Does this negate everything He just said regarding His second coming? No, it does not because we do not know what hour our soul will be required of us. “But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?” (Luke 12:20)
The point here is that our attitude in our walk with God is supposed to be one of imminence. We are supposed to watch and live as if we expect to be called for at any moment. The irony is that the very belief you condemn as receiving the mark is one which creates this very attitude of living as if any moment could be the moment.
Now, when considering your comment equating believing in a pre-trib rapture to taking the mark, if that is so, then you have condemned those that believe in it. Simply put, those that worship the beast and those who receive the mark are condemned to suffer the wrath of God according to Revelation 14. So if you are correct and those that believe in a pre-trib rapture have received the mark, then Revelation 14 says they will suffer the wrath of God and the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever. It does not make a distinction whatsoever between those that receive it willingly and those that do not. Now are you going to change what this Scripture states plainly?
Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2 that God will send a strong delusion on those that take pleasure in unrighteousness that they might believe a lie and be damned. You say that those who believe in a pre-trib rapture are taking pleasure in unrighteousness. Paul makes no distinction between someone “duped” into taking pleasure in unrighteousness and one doing so willfully. Paul does not say, “except those who were ‘duped’ into an erroneous belief regarding His return”. All who believe the lie and all who are sent the delusion perish. None are spared. All who have not a love of the truth and take pleasure in unrighteousness perish. No exceptions are listed. Again, if what you say is true and believing in a pre-trib rapture is taking pleasure in unrighteousness, then they are condemned according to this passage. There is no exception.
Now since you point us in the direction of 1 Thessalonians 4, let’s go see exactly what Paul’s admonitions were.
“For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; Not in the lust of concupiscence [strong desire especially for that which is forbidden], even as the Gentiles which know not God: That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Th 4:2-7)
Even here Paul defines what is considered unrighteous behavior by defining what a follower of Christ should not do. It has nothing to do with one’s understanding of the timing of The Lord’s return and everything to do with honoring His commandments.
The very attitude of those who stray and go into unrighteousness is that the Lord delays His coming, or where is the promise of His coming? Why do they adopt this attitude? They adopt it because they want to do unrighteous deeds. They want to pursue the desires of the flesh and of this world. They are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God (2 Tim 3). You cannot separate one chapter in Thessalonians from what the rest of Scripture teaches. Paul is not adding to the doctrine of Scripture. He is reiterating it. Unrighteousness in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the same as unrighteousness anywhere else in Scripture. It is to sin against God, to take pleasure in that sin and to be defiant and unrepentant of that sin.
Man says in his heart that his law is paramount. Foolish men say there is no God, therefore there is no higher law or commandment. Man’s law is supreme. We decide what is right and wrong. We decide what is acceptable and what is not. We can change and call good evil and evil good. We can make something acceptable because we are in control. We do not have to weigh our conscience down with the concept of a Higher Authority. Yet God’s law is paramount. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He is the Lord and He changes not. (Mal 3:6; Heb 13:8). This is the difference between those who will be sent the strong delusion and those who will not. Jesus even said that the signs and wonders of that time would be so great that if it were possible even the elect would be deceived. The implication is clearly that this will not be possible. But regarding those that take pleasure in unrighteousness, they will be sent a strong delusion and will believe a lie and perish. Those that turn away from the truth, those that choose to disobey God, these are those that fall away, and they are the ones who will convince themselves that He is not coming, or He delays His coming. You are trying to twist and narrowly interpret something according to your particular belief. You are not rightly dividing the Scripture as a whole. If it weren’t so, you wouldn’t have the glaring contradiction of your doctrine of those that are ‘duped’ with what we clearly read right there in 2 Thessalonians and in Revelation. You have completely invented the idea that they will be held over to the second resurrection but will still be saved in complete contradiction to what Scripture says of those who take the mark (which according to you is believing in a pre-trib rapture)
“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2Ti 2:15)
No matter how much someone may wish it were so, Scripture does not condemn someone for not understanding eschatology. It does not complicate the gospel with the additional requirement that one understand all the mysteries within the Scripture. It is a simple faith and belief that Jesus is The Messiah, the Son of Living and Most High God, The Word that was with God and was God and was made flesh and dwelt among us, that He is our Creator and our Redeemer. It is obedience to His commandments. For if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. (John 14:15)
I do not believe there is any sincere believer who will reject the truth once they see it. Anyone who would deliberately refuse to accept the truth once it has been revealed to them does not have a love for the truth.
Now let’s just break this down from a simple point of logic. Under which scenario is a criminal more likely to commit a crime?
Scenario A: The criminal essentially knows where the police tend to be located. They know exactly how long it will take for the police to respond once a call to 911 is made. There are plenty of indicators they can use to let them know about how close the police are at any given moment, and so they know about how long they have to commit the crime, clean up any trace evidence and get away without getting caught.
Scenario B: The police patrol the area randomly, sporadically and frequently. A call to 911 could result in a police response ranging anywhere from 15 seconds to 15 minutes. There are few if any warning signs that they could depend on to let them know how close the police are to arriving at the scene. Therefore it is difficult to know if they will have sufficient time to pull off the caper and escape without getting caught.
Now if people are honest, I think most will say that Scenario A definitely seems more like a criminal’s dream, whereas Scenario B is more of a nightmare. I think most would agree that the criminal would be more likely to attempt the crime in Scenario A than in Scenario B.
Now the notion of a pre-trib rapture would more aptly fit Scenario B. People under this belief system have no sense of exactly when the rapture is going to take place. The Lord’s return could be just around the corner, or it could be another generation or more away. But that constant reminder of not knowing when would most likely lead to an attitude of constant vigilance. They don’t want to let their guard down and fall away only for The Lord to return at that moment and leave them behind.
Now your conclusion is counterintuitive to this. According to your logic, someone who believes in the pre-trib rapture is essentially taking pleasure in unrighteousness and therefore more likely to risk their eternal salvation. This is akin to saying the criminal would be more likely to commit a crime in Scenario B. It just doesn’t make much sense. The idea of imminence should logically serve as a deterrent to sin and unrighteousness rather than an invitation to it.
Now, while this is logical, it does not change what Scripture plainly reveals about Christ’s return. However, it does serve to demonstrate the effect believing such a thing should have on the one who believes it. The effect should be desirable in most cases, not undesirable.
Now let’s return to Scripture and see what attitude we are warned against having regarding the coming of our Lord.
“But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.” (Luke 12:45-46)
“But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Mat 24:48-51)
Now if we look at this parable, we see that the attitude of the evil servant is that his lord delays his coming. Now simply thinking this isn’t what gets him into trouble. He gets into trouble because of what he chooses to do now that he has convinced himself that his lord delays his arrival. He chooses to kill his fellow servants (betrayal). He pursues his wicked desires (fulfills his own lusts; goes into unrighteousness). When his lord arrives, he is judged accordingly. However, the attitude he had was not one of imminence, it was one of an expectant delay on the part of his master. He figured he had some time to kill. He had a desire to go out and sin and live it up. He may have even figured he could get it all straightened out and tidied up before his master actually arrived.
Now what attitude are we admonished to have?
“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.” (Mat 24:42-44)
We are instructed to watch. We are instructed to remain vigilant and be ever ready because we do not know what hour our Lord will come for us. Does this negate everything He just said regarding His second coming? No, it does not because we do not know what hour our soul will be required of us. “But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?” (Luke 12:20)
The point here is that our attitude in our walk with God is supposed to be one of imminence. We are supposed to watch and live as if we expect to be called for at any moment. The irony is that the very belief you condemn as receiving the mark is one which creates this very attitude of living as if any moment could be the moment.
Now, when considering your comment equating believing in a pre-trib rapture to taking the mark, if that is so, then you have condemned those that believe in it. Simply put, those that worship the beast and those who receive the mark are condemned to suffer the wrath of God according to Revelation 14. So if you are correct and those that believe in a pre-trib rapture have received the mark, then Revelation 14 says they will suffer the wrath of God and the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever. It does not make a distinction whatsoever between those that receive it willingly and those that do not. Now are you going to change what this Scripture states plainly?
Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2 that God will send a strong delusion on those that take pleasure in unrighteousness that they might believe a lie and be damned. You say that those who believe in a pre-trib rapture are taking pleasure in unrighteousness. Paul makes no distinction between someone “duped” into taking pleasure in unrighteousness and one doing so willfully. Paul does not say, “except those who were ‘duped’ into an erroneous belief regarding His return”. All who believe the lie and all who are sent the delusion perish. None are spared. All who have not a love of the truth and take pleasure in unrighteousness perish. No exceptions are listed. Again, if what you say is true and believing in a pre-trib rapture is taking pleasure in unrighteousness, then they are condemned according to this passage. There is no exception.
Now since you point us in the direction of 1 Thessalonians 4, let’s go see exactly what Paul’s admonitions were.
“For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; Not in the lust of concupiscence [strong desire especially for that which is forbidden], even as the Gentiles which know not God: That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Th 4:2-7)
Even here Paul defines what is considered unrighteous behavior by defining what a follower of Christ should not do. It has nothing to do with one’s understanding of the timing of The Lord’s return and everything to do with honoring His commandments.
The very attitude of those who stray and go into unrighteousness is that the Lord delays His coming, or where is the promise of His coming? Why do they adopt this attitude? They adopt it because they want to do unrighteous deeds. They want to pursue the desires of the flesh and of this world. They are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God (2 Tim 3). You cannot separate one chapter in Thessalonians from what the rest of Scripture teaches. Paul is not adding to the doctrine of Scripture. He is reiterating it. Unrighteousness in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the same as unrighteousness anywhere else in Scripture. It is to sin against God, to take pleasure in that sin and to be defiant and unrepentant of that sin.
Man says in his heart that his law is paramount. Foolish men say there is no God, therefore there is no higher law or commandment. Man’s law is supreme. We decide what is right and wrong. We decide what is acceptable and what is not. We can change and call good evil and evil good. We can make something acceptable because we are in control. We do not have to weigh our conscience down with the concept of a Higher Authority. Yet God’s law is paramount. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He is the Lord and He changes not. (Mal 3:6; Heb 13:8). This is the difference between those who will be sent the strong delusion and those who will not. Jesus even said that the signs and wonders of that time would be so great that if it were possible even the elect would be deceived. The implication is clearly that this will not be possible. But regarding those that take pleasure in unrighteousness, they will be sent a strong delusion and will believe a lie and perish. Those that turn away from the truth, those that choose to disobey God, these are those that fall away, and they are the ones who will convince themselves that He is not coming, or He delays His coming. You are trying to twist and narrowly interpret something according to your particular belief. You are not rightly dividing the Scripture as a whole. If it weren’t so, you wouldn’t have the glaring contradiction of your doctrine of those that are ‘duped’ with what we clearly read right there in 2 Thessalonians and in Revelation. You have completely invented the idea that they will be held over to the second resurrection but will still be saved in complete contradiction to what Scripture says of those who take the mark (which according to you is believing in a pre-trib rapture)
“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2Ti 2:15)
No matter how much someone may wish it were so, Scripture does not condemn someone for not understanding eschatology. It does not complicate the gospel with the additional requirement that one understand all the mysteries within the Scripture. It is a simple faith and belief that Jesus is The Messiah, the Son of Living and Most High God, The Word that was with God and was God and was made flesh and dwelt among us, that He is our Creator and our Redeemer. It is obedience to His commandments. For if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. (John 14:15)
I do not believe there is any sincere believer who will reject the truth once they see it. Anyone who would deliberately refuse to accept the truth once it has been revealed to them does not have a love for the truth.
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