Arminians

[AndOne]

Then I shall debate no more.

If that's a debate then you loose...

 

[Imblessed]

There's been more than a few Calvinists that have in more or less words that the gift is forced upon us.

If grace is irresistable, then it's forced, and is therefore, not grace.

Do people also understand what the word grace means?



Then I shall debate no more.

I'm very sorry that you feel that way. I'm still trying to figure out how irresistable=force.

forcing implies that God gives a gift we don't want. Makes us take it. However, what He does is nothing like that. He opens our spiritual eyes, which allows us to actually SEE the gift He's offering, and once we see it, we freely, and happily accept it.

I think we fully understand what Grace is. Love undeserved. Unmerited favor. Just two ways I'd describe it.


But, the moderators have spoken, and they don't wish for debate here.

 

[Imblessed]

If that's a debate then you loose...

english police here: that would be "you lose...."

sorry, couldn't resist!

 

[AndOne]

english police here: that would be "you lose...."

sorry, couldn't resist!

...ouch - thanks for setting me straight - but I'll care about my spelling when you start paying me to publish here...

oh well - anyway, thats what I get for being facecious (ded uh spall thet rite,)...

 

[Imblessed]

...ouch - thanks for setting me straight - but I'll care about my spelling when you start paying me to publish here...

oh well - anyway, thats what I get for being facecious (ded uh spall thet rite,)...

 

[mlqurgw]

Sorry but i don't think you have answered my question.
If you are the one doing the drinking of the water then why don't you see this as work? why is the Arminian view salvation by works? is it because you have to do something to be saved? Your view is the same in regared of salvation by works.
Arminians say God is doing it you are responding. God gets the credit but you have to do something. I don't see by adding irresistably makes any difference to wether it's salvation by works or not.

No offense but I don't think you are considering the answers. Arminianism is works because their salvation depends on them. Calvinism doesn't deny that we do something but that we can only do it after God has already done something in us and for us. It depends on God. Arminians make God to wait on men and Calvinism makes man to wait on God. The difference lies in why we believe.

 

[GodsElect]

Orthedoxy, S Walsh, and Arminians of the world!!!
It all comes down to how or what was it that compelled us to turn towards Christ? By no means am I or anyone saying that you are not saved.
However, Adam had utter free will. Since the fall, we all are still willful human beings and Calvinism is not saying that we have no wills in ourselves. We ARE human with willful actions. But what is the cause for our actions? We must be driven by a thought, instinct, or reaction to something in order to willfully act upon that thought or reaction.
How can man, being dead in his trespasses and sin that has no spiritual goodness, pre-regeneration, because the fall of man, be inclined to make such a life changing choice to choose Christ? Is he compelled simply out of thin air?
Waking up one day and decides "Ok, I will now believe in God and get myself saved"
What is that urge inside of us that compells us to choose Christ? Why would a sinner even choose Christ? When....

Genesis 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Jeremiah 17:9 “ The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

How can our wicked hearts from the days of our youth, have ANY inclination towards Holy things of our sinful human nature?
And how can our hearts, in this state, be willing to be anything close to spiritual or believers of Christ?
But it is for God the Holy Spirit, who is able to change the heart and compell us do what we could never do on our own being in a sinful, wicked, unholy, and fallen condition. As we once were before God FIRST gave us that new heart, HE did it before we could even have choosen Him. HE was the cause in our hearts for the reaction to reply positvely and submit to HIM. He raised us from our spritually dead state and made us alive in Him and we could not even come to Christ unless God the Holy Spirit had given us a new heart first. For scripture says.....

John 6: 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alivetogether with Christ (by grace you have been saved)


1 Peter 5:10 And after you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace,who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

Rev 17:14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


We make choices all day long but in the end it all boils down to this.....


Acts 13:48 ... And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

I could present to you the Gospel all day long and in many other passages in the bible that confirm what our calling is and whether the Arminians get it or not, I know that His word NEVER returns void! I stand in AWE in His Glorious Light and am Amazed everyday at what He has done for us!!! Glory be to God for ALL THINGS!!!

 

[Nadiine]

Well...they do...but most of them don't think they do. Most American Christians are effectively Arminian...but try telling them they believe in salvation by works!! Then you better duck!! That's why I think that there are more saved Arminians than a lot of Calvinists would like to believe. Most of them havn't really thought through the consequences of their beliefs, and insist that they really do belive in salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Since I don't think we have to have all of our theological I's dotted and T's crossed to be saved, I think God's grace is extended to misguided Arminians.

I agree with your post - I think it's mostly ignorance rather than them blatantly agreeing works save. I don't think that they view the 'choice' of accepting God as a "work" done by them for the salvation.
They see it as God leading them to believe in Him, and providing the FAITH they need to accept.
So, in their eyes, it's ALL GOD that got them to the acceptance part & it's incumbant upon them TO accept (as He makes them choose Him or evil). Errgo, it's all GOD- not their works

& you need to define works too. Most Christians view works as: witnessing, obedience, bible reading, prayer, tithing, doing deeds of charity to others, etc. We don't attribute "choice" as a "work".

I LOVE the Reformed area here and feel like you guys are a 'refuge' on CF for me - but I'm not committed to Calvanism or Arminianism -
I lean 99% towards Calvanism but just can't get over that last hump.

I can accept Calvanism becuz I believe God is fully sovereign & accept that sovereignty - if He has created humans solely FOR eternal destruction & they are helplessly lost & have no choice, who am I to say, "Lord, you're unfair & wrong". God forbid!!!
I can ONLY thank Him that I was chosen in my depraved condition without deserving any good thing.

I view it as, there are different levels of Arminianism - & those leaning more towards the 100% hardcore teachings of it have the bigger problem of willful acceptance of works for salvation where they can brag on themselves for their hand in it - others that aren't as rigid on it, drift into the ignorance area.

I hope I haven't offended anyone by my statements. It's not my intention.

 

[mlqurgw]

I agree with your post - I think it's mostly ignorance rather than them blatantly agreeing works save. I don't think that they view the 'choice' of accepting God as a "work" done by them for the salvation.
They see it as God leading them to believe in Him, and providing the FAITH they need to accept.
So, in their eyes, it's ALL GOD that got them to the acceptance part & it's incumbant upon them TO accept (as He makes them choose Him or evil). Errgo, it's all GOD- not their works

& you need to define works too. Most Christians view works as: witnessing, obedience, bible reading, prayer, tithing, doing deeds of charity to others, etc. We don't attribute "choice" as a "work".

I LOVE the Reformed area here and feel like you guys are a 'refuge' on CF for me - but I'm not committed to Calvanism or Arminianism -
I lean 99% towards Calvanism but just can't get over that last hump.

I can accept Calvanism becuz I believe God is fully sovereign & accept that sovereignty - if He has created humans solely FOR eternal destruction & they are helplessly lost & have no choice, who am I to say, "Lord, you're unfair & wrong". God forbid!!!
I can ONLY thank Him that I was chosen in my depraved condition without deserving any good thing.

I view it as, there are different levels of Arminianism - & those leaning more towards the 100% hardcore teachings of it have the bigger problem of willful acceptance of works for salvation where they can brag on themselves for their hand in it - others that aren't as rigid on it, drift into the ignorance area.

I hope I haven't offended anyone by my statements. It's not my intention.

You are correct that most people are ignorant of what they believe and why. The natural man readily accepts that he must do something because it is natural that we think we are in control. Every false religion has this one thing in common, man must do something. It doesn't matter how small it is it always makes the difference. While I have no problem with people who have never ben taught truth nor with those who even reject truth ouet of ignorance I do have a big problem with the system of religion that appeals to the natural tendency of works. It is a barrior that can only be overcome by the Spirit of God. The most damning thing in the world is religion.

 

[GodsElect]

I lean 99% towards Calvanism but just can't get over that last hump.

What is that last 1% hump???

 

[RepentantSinner]

YThe most damning thing in the world is religion.

Religion:
something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

Not Religions but false Doctrines and Theology.

Jeremiah 9:5-7


5 Everyone will deceive his neighbor,
And will not speak the truth;
They have taught their tongue to speak lies;
They weary themselves to commit iniquity.
6 Your dwelling place is in the midst of deceit;
Through deceit they refuse to know Me,” says the LORD.

Mark 13:21-23

21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.



Ninth Commandment
“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.




Most churches out there brake this commandment and many more!




If you question The doctrine of Grace and God's Elect. Your answere in a way is found right there in Mark 13:22. Look at the way the word ELECT is used. If you question churches doctrine and they say they don't beleive in God's Elect............RUN!!

The Devil disguises himself in sheeps clothing.

 

[Nadiine]

What is that last 1% hump???

That's a good question - it's a combo of struggling with scripture verses and my own reasoning.

I read verses like: Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

John 3:16 whoever calls upon the Lord will be saved...

Then I have reasoning that isn't ready to 'close the book' on the thought that God has definitey made people FOR destruction; who are made for the purpose of being used here on earth for His purposes, and condemned with no chance of acceptance?

IF He works that way, I can & will accept it humbly & in submission. But I'm not resigned to accepting He does yet.
There seems to be some response we have on our part.

I can't help but think that our choice and His choosing us somehow work together - as if we're predestined BECAUSE He knew our heart would be pliable enough to accept His truth (upon His working in us)...

I give all credit to God for salvation - becuz without HIM drawing me to Himself, I'd not even have interest to turn to Him. And without Him providing us faith, we can't have faith in Him.

Which leads me to another issue I kick around, God gives us ALL a measure of faith - why give the unregenerate any faith when they have no choice to accept God w/ that faith?

I just don't know - I'm open to God doing anything He chooses - but I'm not as sure HOW He works it.

 

[UMP]

There's been more than a few Calvinists that have in more or less words that the gift is forced upon us.

If grace is irresistable, then it's forced, and is therefore, not grace.

Do people also understand what the word grace means?



Then I shall debate no more.

Yeah,
I guess in a way, life was forced on Lazarus, but I think he got over it real quick.

 

[GodsElect]

There's been more than a few Calvinists that have in more or less words that the gift is forced upon us.

If grace is irresistable, then it's forced, and is therefore, not grace.

Do people also understand what the word grace means?

grace-


(Christian theology) the free and unmerited favor or beneficence of God; "God's grace is manifested in the salvation of sinners"; "there but for the grace of God go Igrace
Pronunciation: 'grAs
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin gratia favor, charm, thanks, from gratus pleasing, grateful; akin to Sanskrit grnAti he praises
1 a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace
2 a : [SIZE=-1]APPROVAL[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]FAVOR[/SIZE] <stayed in his good graces> b archaic : [SIZE=-1]MERCY[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]PARDON[/SIZE] c : a special favor : [SIZE=-1]PRIVILEGE[/SIZE]

I think YOU should really study exactly what Grace is and understand that we did nothing to deserve this unmerited favor of God's Grace to us as His chosen people.

 

[GodsElect]

Here's a quote from the Arminian master himself. Jacobus Arminius

"After the reading of Scripture, which I strenuously inculcate, and more than any other ... I recommend that the Commentaries of Calvin be read ... For I affirm that in the interpretation of the Scriptures Calvin is incomparable, and that his Commentaries are more to be valued than anything that is handed down to us in the writings of the Fathers -- so much that I concede to him a certain spirit of prophecy in which he stands distinguished above others, above most, indeed, above all" -Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609

 

[heymikey80]

Then I have reasoning that isn't ready to 'close the book' on the thought that God has definitely made people FOR destruction; who are made for the purpose of being used here on earth for His purposes, and condemned with no chance of acceptance?

I think it's worth qualifying: this isn't a parallel consequence. God's patience indicates something of His nature, just as God's destruction of the universe will also indicate something of His nature. We were initially designed so that we were to be dealt-with by the Law, searched within our hearts and not found wanting. But we fell from that. In Adam we once held this position, freely related with God, and freely being what we should be. So what would a shunned God be justified in doing?

Hence God's purpose appears to be setting before each of us justice and mercy; if that were the "chance of acceptance", well, we humans have generally had this chance.

But if we went looking for good hearts that're actually without God, we don't find them anywhere. In fact we find instead bad hearts with God, if the truth be told. Without God working in us, nobody here would accept any offer from God. That's essentially what Calvinism is trying to say. We can't all be judged on this basis anymore -- or we're all dead.

So we see God as condemning everyone on the basis of works. It's only by God's grace that anyone is alive to reach out a hand in acceptance of His work. And it is totally by God's grace that such hands decide to reach out.

Arminianism accepted the condemnation and "only by God's grace". Arminianism rejected the "totally by God's grace." Grace is necessary in Arminianism; but it isn't effective without the will of man.

 

[Ryft]

Most Christians view works as . . . obedience . . .

To repent; is it not a command of God? To believe upon the name of his Son; is it not a command of God? Both surely are, so whether or not repentence and faith are together viewed as 'conversion', such acts nevertheless are each properly considered 'works'. This is why, despite the objections raised by Arminians, theirs indeed is a works-based system of salvation. They would prefer that 'works' might be any obedience to God's prescriptive will except these two, but Scripture does not provide their desired exceptions. These are commands of God, and obedience to his prescriptive will is 'works'.

"The doctrines of grace are the biblical teachings that define the goal and means of God's perfect work of redemption. They tell us that God is the one who saves, for His own glory, and freely. And they tell us that He does so only through Christ, only on the basis of His grace, only with the perfection that marks everything the Father, Son, and Spirit do. The doctrines of grace separate the Christian faith from the works-based religions of men. They direct us away from ourselves and solely to God's grace and mercy. They destroy pride, instill humility, and exalt God" (James R. White, The Potter's Freedom).
​

I read verses like Deut. 30:19 . . . "therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live"

In a previous post you had said, "I don't think that Arminians view the 'choice' of accepting God as a 'work' done by them for their salvation." In this post here you fortuitously cited Deut. 30:19. As this flows down from God's prescriptive will, we find here further testimony that 'choice' is rightly considered works, despite the fruitless objections of Arminians.

The question put forward by Reformed Protestants is this: "Are 'works' pleasing to God the cause of regeneration, or the fruit thereof?"

RE: John 3:16 -- Our English versions of this passage make use of the indefinite pronoun "whoever," but the serious student of Scripture knows that this indefinite sense is not in the original text. The Greek word used here is described by Gerhard Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament as meaning "each" or "every" or "all" (vol. 5, pp. 886, 795) and is very definite. In this case the KJV accurately translates it as "whosoever believeth" (all who believe) because the thought being conveyed here by the Greek construction is that God gave his Son in order that "each one believing in Him shall not perish"—as found also in ALT (Analytical-Literal Translation of the New Testament); every person believing into Christ believeth not in vain because God set him forth as a propitiation, through faith in His blood; this is why "it is necessary for the Son of Man to be lifted up, so that every one believing in Him shall not perish" (v. 14-15, ALT; cf. penal substitutionary theory of atonement). The LIT (Literal Translation of the Holy Bible) by Jay P. Green, Sr. translates it as "every one believing into Him" which I appreciate, for "believing into" makes an effort to capture the sense of a "whole-souled self-commitment" as John Murray articulates it. (Faith, if it is merely a mental hobby, is not faith.)

I can't help but think that [perhaps] we're predestined BECAUSE He knew our heart would be pliable enough to accept His truth (upon His working in us) . . . Without Him drawing me to Himself, I'd not even have interest to turn to Him. And without Him providing us faith, we can't have faith in Him.

The latter part seems to suggest that you would probably consider yourself as one of those whose hearts were "pliable enough." It is because of his working within you that you were interested in turning to him, but it is because your heart was "pliable enough" that this inner working was successful in producing that result.

Any red flags yet? There should be.

First, how is it that your sinful nature was inherently, i.e. by its own nature, less obdurate than someone else's? Does not this line of thinking give off the scent of Pelagianism? Surely if your heart was pliable enough, it was so in the day of God's power.

Second, can God work on a heart and discover it is not "pliable enough" under his power? Can anyone's obduracy defy God's omnipotence?

Which leads me to another issue I kick around, God gives us ALL a measure of faith - why give the unregenerate any faith when they have no choice to accept God with that faith?

The only instance of "measure of faith" in Scripture I can find is Rom. 12:3, "Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you." How is it that, from this text, one can conclude that God grants faith to the unregenerate? Unless you find this expression elsewhere in Scripture; if so, could you point me to it?

[Arminians] see it as God leading them to believe in Him, and providing the faith they need to accept.

Personally, I have never met an Arminian that thinks faith originates from God. Every Arminian I have known—including myself, when I was one—has always believed that faith is from ourselves. Have I failed to note the existence of a distinct Arminian sect? Could you share more information?

 

[GodsElect]

Hey Guys YOU HAVE TO READ THIS! Both ARMINIANS and CALVINISTS! click here>http://www.jesussaidfollowme.org/calvinismarminianism.htm?gclid=CNagnprKpokCFQGPWAod8kyCTw

 

[Erinwilcox]

To repent; is it not a command of God? To believe upon the name of his Son; is it not a command of God? Both surely are, so whether or not repentence and faith are together viewed as 'conversion', such acts nevertheless are each properly considered 'works'. This is why, despite the objections raised by Arminians, theirs indeed is a works-based system of salvation. They would prefer that 'works' might be any obedience to God's prescriptive will except these two, but Scripture does not provide their desired exceptions. These are commands of God, and obedience to his prescriptive will is 'works'.

"The doctrines of grace are the biblical teachings that define the goal and means of God's perfect work of redemption. They tell us that God is the one who saves, for His own glory, and freely. And they tell us that He does so only through Christ, only on the basis of His grace, only with the perfection that marks everything the Father, Son, and Spirit do. The doctrines of grace separate the Christian faith from the works-based religions of men. They direct us away from ourselves and solely to God's grace and mercy. They destroy pride, instill humility, and exalt God" (James R. White, The Potter's Freedom).​

In a previous post you had said, "I don't think that Arminians view the 'choice' of accepting God as a 'work' done by them for their salvation." In this post here you fortuitously cited Deut. 30:19. As this flows down from God's prescriptive will, we find here further testimony that 'choice' is rightly considered works, despite the fruitless objections of Arminians.

The question put forward by Reformed Protestants is this: "Are 'works' pleasing to God the cause of regeneration, or the fruit thereof?"

RE: John 3:16 -- Our English versions of this passage make use of the indefinite pronoun "whoever," but the serious student of Scripture knows that this indefinite sense is not in the original text. The Greek word used here is described by Gerhard Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament as meaning "each" or "every" or "all" (vol. 5, pp. 886, 795) and is very definite. In this case the KJV accurately translates it as "whosoever believeth" (all who believe) because the thought being conveyed here by the Greek construction is that God gave his Son in order that "each one believing in Him shall not perish"—as found also in ALT (Analytical-Literal Translation of the New Testament); every person believing into Christ believeth not in vain because God set him forth as a propitiation, through faith in His blood; this is why "it is necessary for the Son of Man to be lifted up, so that every one believing in Him shall not perish" (v. 14-15, ALT; cf. penal substitutionary theory of atonement). The LIT (Literal Translation of the Holy Bible) by Jay P. Green, Sr. translates it as "every one believing into Him" which I appreciate, for "believing into" makes an effort to capture the sense of a "whole-souled self-commitment" as John Murray articulates it. (Faith, if it is merely a mental hobby, is not faith.)


The latter part seems to suggest that you would probably consider yourself as one of those whose hearts were "pliable enough." It is because of his working within you that you were interested in turning to him, but it is because your heart was "pliable enough" that this inner working was successful in producing that result.

Any red flags yet? There should be.

First, how is it that your sinful nature was inherently, i.e. by its own nature, less obdurate than someone else's? Does not this line of thinking give off the scent of Pelagianism? Surely if your heart was pliable enough, it was so in the day of God's power.

Second, can God work on a heart and discover it is not "pliable enough" under his power? Can anyone's obduracy defy God's omnipotence?



The only instance of "measure of faith" in Scripture I can find is Rom. 12:3, "Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you." How is it that, from this text, one can conclude that God grants faith to the unregenerate? Unless you find this expression elsewhere in Scripture; if so, could you point me to it?


Personally, I have never met an Arminian that thinks faith originates from God. Every Arminian I have known—including myself, when I was one—has always believed that faith is from ourselves. Have I failed to note the existence of a distinct Arminian sect? Could you share more information?

Amen! This is why it is so crucial for many to understand that unbelief is a sin. . .the sin for which many will ultimately be damned.

As for Arminians believing that faith comes from oneself. . .here is what I think. I think that when an Arminian reads about the Holy Spirit drawing someone, they would say that God offers salvation to all men and that the Holy Spirit draws all men. However, only the "elect" (because of their own choosing and because they can't hide from that word) will reach out and respond to the drawing by choosing God's offer of their own free will. Wrong, of course, but more biblical than believing that faith comes all from oneself.

 

[McWilliams]

Oh yes, I certainly agree! And....to not decide is to have decided! To refuse to place ones faith in Him as Savior and Lord is overt rejection of Him! He does command us to believe and repent! Amen!!