Arminians

[Erinwilcox]

Oh yes, I certainly agree! And....to not decide is to have decided! To refuse to place ones faith in Him as Savior and Lord is overt rejection of Him! He does command us to believe and repent! Amen!!

Yes and isn't to obey a good work? In which case their salvation is based on works--their work of choosing God, though many would deny this.

 

[heymikey80]

Yes and isn't to obey a good work? In which case their salvation is based on works--their work of choosing God, though many would deny this.

Mmm, technically it's not based on the work, though.

There's faith, something that you rely on.

Then there's what emerges from this faith -- a credulous hearing of the reality and the commands that come from Whom you rely on. Everything from that credulous hearing to what results from it is considered "obedience" (in Greek).

Does "obedience" include works? Yes, in its wider meanings. It can include them, it need not. It all depends ....

From another point of view, God's condemnation is definitely "of works". But salvation is of faith, which is prior to obedience, which includes works.

And even at that, faith is considered an instrument -- not a cause -- of our salvation. That's a much more embedded issue than I'd like to get into right now, others like John Murray have described this better than I ever could, off the cuff.

 

[McWilliams]

You dont even have the ability to believe or confess until the Holy Spirit has already touched your heart with regeneration!! Then, only then, do you become interested in knowing about God or knowing God! All interest in spiritual things comes BECAUSE God has been at work in your heart!! What a wonder!

All of the works you do are then evidence of what has taken place in your heart! You see your sin, your need of a Savior and ask for His mercy and forgiveness and then you are so overwhelmed with love for Him you want everyone to know and cant do enough to please Him and bring glory to His name!!

 

[healthygirl88]

i just read through this whole post which is crazy long and i'm not calvinist but as far as the whole free will predestination thing. i'm guessing when you say arminians you are talking about christians that are not calvinist and believe in free will. personally i think you are misquoting or not understanding the beliefs of us free will christians it's not salvation by works and we aren't taking credit if you ask most people they will usually give credit to the Holy Spirit and then say the accepted it. i also found it quite insulting how people said that those of us who are not calvinists might or will get to heaven but that's in spite of our believes because our beliefs are all wrong. i have never heard a group of christians go and say if you aren't this denomination you are totally wrong. that is so rude. everyone gets different things out of the Bible and interrprets it differently and to say you are right and everyone else is wrong is very hurtful and i personally don't think it's very christian like. it's not your place to say who is right and who is wrong with their beliefs and if you try don't be surprised if someone tells you or someone close to you a young child that their calvinists beliefs are totally wrong. sorry but that really hurts i thought it was God's job to help us understand the Bible and make the descision of who's a christian and who's not. sorry but i've had bad experiences with calvinists before still not over at it at all and thought that maybe the people on here would be nicer when it comes to beliefs. well i'm done with my rant take from it what you will.

 

[jer3119]

i just read through this whole post which is crazy long and i'm not calvinist but as far as the whole free will predestination thing. i'm guessing when you say arminians you are talking about christians that are not calvinist and believe in free will. personally i think you are misquoting or not understanding the beliefs of us free will christians it's not salvation by works and we aren't taking credit if you ask most people they will usually give credit to the Holy Spirit and then say the accepted it. i also found it quite insulting how people said that those of us who are not calvinists might or will get to heaven but that's in spite of our believes because our beliefs are all wrong. i have never heard a group of christians go and say if you aren't this denomination you are totally wrong. that is so rude. everyone gets different things out of the Bible and interrprets it differently and to say you are right and everyone else is wrong is very hurtful and i personally don't think it's very christian like. it's not your place to say who is right and who is wrong with their beliefs and if you try don't be surprised if someone tells you or someone close to you a young child that their calvinists beliefs are totally wrong. sorry but that really hurts i thought it was God's job to help us understand the Bible and make the descision of who's a christian and who's not. sorry but i've had bad experiences with calvinists before still not over at it at all and thought that maybe the people on here would be nicer when it comes to beliefs. well i'm done with my rant take from it what you will.

First, just let me say that I agree with you that some that call themselves Calvinists are very mean and hurtful. I have been on the receiving end of that type of person too.

But not all people who believe in the "doctrines of Grace" which is what Calvin believed, are mean, and in fact, those truly touched by God's grace are at first at least, greatly humbled by it, and thus avoid being arrogant about what God has shown them.

But, just like Paul, Calvinists are still people with an old nature and they sometimes forget that they are saved by grace alone and get arrogant about what they know. I'm sorry if you have had a bad experience with Calvinist folks and I ask your forgiveness for them.

Second, since you name the name of Christ, I know that you must believe that scripture is what it claims to be, and that is that it is God's Word, it is Pure Truth, all of it, not just parts of it, and because God spoke it and it is Truth, it all makes sense, because God tells us in His Word that "He is a God of order and not confusion". Therefore when something we find in God's Word doesn't make sense to us, it's because we don't see it correctly yet, we don't really understand it. God's Word is spoken by Him through the apostles and prophets, and thus can never be wrong or contradict itself.

Sometimes it may seem to, but that is all it does, it just SEEMS, on first impression to our limited minds, to contradict itself, but it can't. When we really look at it hard and seek to understand it, instead of automatically trying to explain it away, asking the Holy Spirit to show us what it means, and if we really mean it when we ask, then He will do so, and all of a sudden sometimes we see and understand what we never saw before. This has happened to me many times.

Third, what I would respectfully ask you to do is to carefully read the following verses and then try to explain to yourself what they really mean, what God is trying to say to you and to me by telling Paul to write them. If you do this, seeking the Spirit's guidance I think it will clear up, or start to clear up, what real calvinists are trying to say. Heres the verses, which are from Romans chapter 9:

9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Essau have I hated.​

At this point I would ask you to think about why did God hate Essau when as we are told in this verse he hadn't done anything and wasn't even born yet? ​

This is why Paul asks the question about God being unrighteous in the next verse, because to us spiritually blind humans, at first God SEEMS, to be unrighteous for hating someone that wasn't even born yet. But Paul tells us "God forbid" that we should even think this. Please read on and think about what else God is saying through Paul to us about this whole matter.​

9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?​

At this point Paul again says what pops into the mind of most people before they really understand this whole thing, and that is, "How could God find fault?" How could a loving God hate Essau who hadn't done anything, and how could he "raise up" Pharaoh just for the purpose of "hardening" his heart against God, and then killing him in the Red Sea before before he had a chance to repent? How could God do all those things? ​

But notice how Paul answers that question. Paul says it isn't even proper for us to ask the questions, and he calls doing so, "replying against God". Paul says that God, being God, can make men for whatever purpose He wants and we have no right to question Him for doing so. Read the rest of the verse now and see for yourself if this is not what God is saying through Paul. ​

9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?​

You see, the right question is not the ones asked above which all fallen men ask, because secretly, deep in their own "deceitful and desperately wicked hearts" where they don't even recognize it, they think God is unfair for creating Essau and Pharoh the way he did with an old nature and prone to sin. ​

But when they do this what they are actually doing is accusing God of being unjust. What they are actually saying is that God owes them grace, He owes them salvation, because they were born with an old nature thus are prone to sin. But grace is not grace if it is owed to someone, rather it is a repayment for a wrong done to them, it is the payment of a debt. But God doesn't owe salvation to anyone. ​

When they say that what they are really saying is that if they had been in Adam and Eve's shoes, they wouldn't have made the mistake that their original parents made. Thus they flatter themselves that they are better than Adam and Eve who were sinless and perfect from the hand of God. Thus, they call God a liar. True, they may not have thought all this through carefully yet, but the truth is this is what people actually believe until the Spirit shines a light on verses like this one, and they finally "see light, in God's light". ​

But the Bible says that God is God and He can do anything He wills to do as long as it is consistent with his love and justice. And Essau and Pharaoh, not only would have sinned in the Garden just like Adam and Eve, but they have "spit in God's face" many times since, Essau "selling his birthright for some stew" and Pharaoh ignoring God's many miracles to try and get him to change his mind.​

I hope that helps explain this whole matter a little better for you, as it did for me when I read these verses and really thought about them and prayed for understanding into what they meant.​

Much Christian love to you,
in Him,
jer3119​

 

[healthygirl88]

Second, since you name the name of Christ, I know that you must believe that scripture is what it claims to be, and that is that it is God's Word, it is Pure Truth, all of it, not just parts of it, and because God spoke it and it is Truth, it all makes sense, because God tells us in His Word that "He is a God of order and not confusion". Therefore when something we find in God's Word doesn't make sense to us, it's because we don't see it correctly yet, we don't really understand it. God's Word is spoken by Him through the apostles and prophets, and thus can never be wrong or contradict itself.

thank you for your reply it was nice but you assumed that i don't understand the scriptures or at least not understand it correctly. which to me feels like you are saying your beliefs are right and mine are wrong not flat out but sort of in a around about way. i believe i understand the bible i believe if you pray and seek God and ask for discernment you will be able to understand it. now as far as all the different translations of what different denominations think the Bible means that doesn't mean the what you believe is necessarily what God was trying to say in the Bible either because we all are humans and calvin was only a man we can go by what one human tells us is how the Bible is supposed to be read. I read the Bible and study it i don't necessarily agree totally with any denomination i lean towards a few more than others but i pray and have God lead me. as far as the Bible verses go. i know them all well and i know what i believe about them. you don't need to convince me or tell me what you think they mean because that won't change my beliefs. i'm sorry if that came across rude. i am very sensative when it comes to this subject because they are my beliefs and they are important to me and i don't like when others speak badly about them.

Sometimes it may seem to, but that is all it does, it just SEEMS, on first impression to our limited minds, to contradict itself, but it can't. When we really look at it hard and seek to understand it, instead of automatically trying to explain it away, asking the Holy Spirit to show us what it means, and if we really mean it when we ask, then He will do so, and all of a sudden sometimes we see and understand what we never saw before. This has happened to me many times.

as far as this statement goes i never said that i didn't understand something. i did say that i believe if we ask God he will show us what the Bible means i never said the Bible contradicts itself because it doesn't but different denominations see things different ways. i don't necessarily agree with them but it also isn't my place to say they aren't christians or their beliefs are wrong because even if i don't think so they might be right on how they interpreted it and the rest of us can be wrong.

 

[jer3119]

thank you for your reply it was nice but you assumed that i don't understand the scriptures or at least not understand it correctly. which to me feels like you are saying your beliefs are right and mine are wrong not flat out but sort of in a around about way. i believe i understand the bible i believe if you pray and seek God and ask for discernment you will be able to understand it. now as far as all the different translations of what different denominations think the Bible means that doesn't mean the what you believe is necessarily what God was trying to say in the Bible either because we all are humans and calvin was only a man we can go by what one human tells us is how the Bible is supposed to be read. I read the Bible and study it i don't necessarily agree totally with any denomination i lean towards a few more than others but i pray and have God lead me. as far as the Bible verses go. i know them all well and i know what i believe about them. you don't need to convince me or tell me what you think they mean because that won't change my beliefs. i'm sorry if that came across rude. i am very sensative when it comes to this subject because they are my beliefs and they are important to me and i don't like when others speak badly about them.

as far as this statement goes i never said that i didn't understand something. i did say that i believe if we ask God he will show us what the Bible means i never said the Bible contradicts itself because it doesn't but different denominations see things different ways. i don't necessarily agree with them but it also isn't my place to say they aren't christians or their beliefs are wrong because even if i don't think so they might be right on how they interpreted it and the rest of us can be wrong.

Yep, you were right, you've had some bad experiences with Calvinists and you're still not over it. Maybe it's time you got over it since forgiveness is a Christian virtue?.

And if you already understand everything what are you doing here? Just complaining about Calvinists? I don't go over to the Arminian sections and complain about Arminians.

The reason I took the time to write what I did was because I thought you had an honest question. Apparently you don't.

I also notice that you had not one word to say about the Scripture I spent the whole post discussing. Is that because you just want to complain about Calvin or Calvinists, or is it because you don't know what the verse means, or don't care to know what it means?

As for Calvin, I didn't bother to mention it in the prior post but I have never called myself a Calvinist because I think Paul tells us not to say we follow Apollos or Cephas or....

And actually I don't care what calvin believed or anyone else believes in the final analysis unless it is what God teaches, and when I stopped worrying about who said what about whom and just started reading the Bible, asking Him to show me what it meant, that is when my views about things started to change.

Sorry I wasted your time, and sorry you wasted mine, I really am,

Much Christian love,
in Him,
jer3119

 

[healthygirl88]

Yep, you were right, you've had some bad experiences with Calvinists and you're still not over it. Maybe it's time you got over it since forgiveness is a Christian virtue?.

And if you already understand everything what are you doing here? Just complaining about Calvinists? I don't go over to the Arminian sections and complain about Arminians.

The reason I took the time to write what I did was because I thought you had an honest question. Apparently you don't.

I also notice that you had not one word to say about the Scripture I spent the whole post discussing. Is that because you just want to complain about Calvin or Calvinists, or is it because you don't know what the verse means, or don't care to know what it means?

As for Calvin, I didn't bother to mention it in the prior post but I have never called myself a Calvinist because I think Paul tells us not to say we follow Apollos or Cephas or....

And actually I don't care what calvin believed or anyone else believes in the final analysis unless it is what God teaches, and when I stopped worrying about who said what about whom and just started reading the Bible, asking Him to show me what it meant, that is when my views about things started to change.

Sorry I wasted your time, and sorry you wasted mine, I really am,

Much Christian love,
in Him,
jer3119

you don't know my intentions the reason i came here is because i was told before that if i read the posts in the calvinist section i would find out that that's not how all calvinists are. the reason i posted is because honestly alot of the responses on the thread were hurtful i also think that alot of the responses were about what i believe in terms of free will were incorrect and taken out of context i think they were calvinists saying what they think non calvinists or arminians believe on the topic of free will and predestination.
as far as complaining about calvinists that wasn't my intention my intention was to try and tell you that these comments are incorrect and go and say this is what these people believe in terms of free will when you don't believe in and don't understand that belief making comments on it and how we think is hurtful that's all i was trying to say.
as far as my question i never asked a question i was just stating facts about my beliefs.
i did address the scripture you put up there i said thank you but i know the scripture i read the scripture but i don't want to have that debate right now. i didn't ask for any Bible verses to back up what you believe you just gave them to me. i read them but to me it sounded more like you were trying to convince me of your beliefs. i know what i believe and my beliefs are very strong.
as far as the whole christian virtue thing i said i wasn't over it so i did warn you there. it's not like i'm 30 and this happened so many years ago this is new it has been alot of hurt from alot of people honestly thousands. i will get over it but it will take a while. i'm trying my best right now.
i didn't mean to come across attacking you but to me reading your ask calvinist section which to me invites me in to ask questions made me literally sick from reading what people were saying about my beliefs when they really don't know what i believe or at least from the comments that have been made that's what's coming across to me. as i said before i thanked your for your nice post but i didn't ask a question so for you to put all those Bible verses in there and try to explain them to me just made me feel like you were trying to change my beliefs.

 

[jer3119]

" i didn't ask a question so for you to put all those Bible verses in there and try to explain them to me just made me feel like you were trying to change my beliefs."

I'm not trying to change your beliefs, only the Holy Spirit can do that. What I am trying to do is what the Bible tells me to do, and that is to "love you as I love myself".

Please allow me to explain. I used to be just like you in many ways. I believed like you do about the scriptures, I believed I was a true believer, and I got insulted, offended, and my feelings hurt when anyone, especially a Calvinist, suggested I wasn't a true believer, and I responded just like you have, saying things like my opinions are just as good as theirs.

But I did all of that, I was later to see, out of my blindness to what the real truth is. And I got my feelings hurt because the truth hurt and I didn't want to see it, because my pride was in the way. I didn't want to think I had done all that studying and reading and was totally blind to what was really said. But I was, just like you are. It was very humiliating for me, which is exactly what God meant for it to be, because my pride, just like yours, needed to be humbled.

I was therefore in great danger for my presumption, which is where one presumes they are true believers when they are not, and is called in Ps 19 "the great transgression", and those who spoke the truth of the Word to me did it in love, because they saw my danger when I didn't and because they loved me, they took the spiteful, arrogant, words I spoke to them for their kindness in sharing the truth with me, and set it aside in true Christian love, just as I, and others, have done with you.


I take no pleasure in saying that to you, in fact, it hurts me to do so. But if I really love you and I care for your soul, like I do, then I put my feelings aside, and I know I have to tell you the truth and hope the Holy Spirit will work it deeply into your heart. I hope He is already doing that and that you're being here asking questions is because He led you here, and it is Him that is making you "hurt" about what you believe. He works that way many times. But sometimes, He leads people to the truth, like He did Pharroh, just to harden there hearts more. I pray that is not the case with you.

In other words, He drags us kicking and screaming to the truth and makes us see it, if we ever see it at all, even when we don't want to. That is what the doctrines of grace are really all about. And once a person sees that, and realizes that it wasn't them that "accepted Christ" but that He had to force us to see the truth, then they really love Him, Really Love Him, not just say they do, because they want to believe they do.

That is all I am going to say about this. I have said enough, along with the other posts on this thread that I went back and read for the first time last night after I first posted to you, for you to see and understand what we are saying.

I didn't, by the way, find very many unkind things said at all. In fact, just the opposite, I found patient, loving, responses to questions people asked about Calvinism, so it appears to me that the problem is yours and you have some decisions to make.

The Proverbs say that if you rebuke a wise person they will love you but if you rebuke a fool they will hate you. How that applies to you; whether in the end you turn out to be a wise person, or a fool, therefore, all depends on how you respond to this post and these other messages about the truth, spoken in love, to you, by the Holy Spirit's leading. You didn't get here by "accident" or by "chance", nothing happens that God didn't plan, including your being here reading these words.

So, it is up to you, to make a choice, using your will, to accept or reject what I have said, and see if it agrees with the "whole Counsel of the Word or God", or just parts of it, isn't it? May the Spirit help you to make the right choice.

Much Christian love to you,
in Him,
jer3119

 

[heymikey80]

you don't know my intentions the reason i came here is because i was told before that if i read the posts in the calvinist section i would find out that that's not how all calvinists are.

Well, I guess I'd have to say that there are people of all sorts across all theologies. None of these need be defended belligerently. The truth is the truth. Yet most theologies have belligerents.

the reason i posted is because honestly alot of the responses on the thread were hurtful

In fact I'd be interested to discuss specific assertions. If you'd like you can quote the assertion (everyone can see what it says, no harm referring to it); then describe what you think it implies, and why it's hurtful.

"Hurtful" is a fairly general term. But when "hurtful" accompanies "factual", we may have to admit that it is indeed "hurtful". Or maybe it's not what was meant. We'd have to get the originator to explain what was meant.

You see, when you make assertions, it's normally a good idea to go beyond "I don't like that" to being specific, so that we might agree with you, "We don't like that either", and then answer, "... and we propose another way to say it", or "... but it's still a fact -- how do we get across bad news in a good way?", or even, "... but it's something that's constantly misread, and there's been no way around it, the gulf in world views is so big."

The fact is, many who think free will factors into their decision essentially say they're saved because of their decision. I've run into enough people to know that laypeople are generally don't simply follow Arminius or Wesley -- whom I consider mistaken, but true brothers in the Lord. Most laypeople are Pelagian. They really think God saves them because they chose God.

I'd be completely gratified if you answered that you don't think God saves people because they chose Christ to be their Savior. Because really, from a Calvinist point of view, this constantly concludes that God is rewarding [with salvation] people who are choosing Him [by their own wills]. It's not enough in Calvinism to not boast. Boasting is excluded by the way God saves. That means it's prevented; not simply missing.

if that's not what you're saying, this would be the absolute best time to say so and to say what you do think.

Frankly, once more (with feeling) I assert it: semi-Pelagians, Arminians, Wesleyans all -- I consider them my brothers in Christ. Mistaken as I may consider them, they're still my brothers. They believe, without works, without the ability to boast.

as far as complaining about calvinists that wasn't my intention my intention was to try and tell you that these comments are incorrect and go and say this is what these people believe in terms of free will when you don't believe in and don't understand that belief making comments on it and how we think is hurtful that's all i was trying to say.

I can certainly agree with you that some views of free will are not correctly represented by the postings here.

But some other views of free will are directly, clearly represented by the postings here.

The breadth of Christianity puts such things before me every day. We are all Pelagians at heart. We were all born with the presumption that we could do it. It's great that you've seen through that, and I'm glad to know that you are trusting in the Savior, and not your own faith. But I'm not prepared to object to people talking about such things. Because I know too many people who have told me such things to my face.

 

[Koey]

Yes they do, they belive that man has the free will to choose christ which makes it a WORK of man. That is not giving all the glory to Christ for their salvation. Here is a link on what The Arminians belive. www .bible-researcher.com/arminianism.html
If you have any other questions feel free and unafraid to ask. There are a lot of misconceptions of what Calvinists belive which are Mostly all very false and uninformed opinions.

Was James an Arminian for saying that faith without works is dead? Was Jesus an Arminian for writing the parable of the sheep and goats where those who did no good works are excluded from heaven?

 

[bradfordl]

Was James an Arminian for saying that faith without works is dead? Was Jesus an Arminian for writing the parable of the sheep and goats where those who did no good works are excluded from heaven?

Nope and nope.

 

[Koey]

Explanation, please?

 

[DeaconDean]

Was James an Arminian for saying that faith without works is dead?

No, what James was saying was that faith will produce works.

"If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?" -Jas. 2:15-16

Was Jesus an Arminian for writing the parable of the sheep and goats where those who did no good works are excluded from heaven?

Again, faith will produce works, not the other way around. For what misunderstanding did this man have:

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" -Mt. 19:16

We can not work nothing which will produce any thing to which God will respect other than to confess His Son.

Even the patriarch of faith (Abraham) had no works to stand on.

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." -Rom. 4:3

"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." -Gal. 3:6

"And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." -Jas. 2:23

How was it Abraham came to this?

"Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;" -Gen. 12:1-4

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Koey]

Interesting... Where does it say that faith will produce works, i.e. one follows the other? Is there proof that they are not rather simultaneous as the Catholics say?

 

[DeaconDean]

Interesting... Where does it say that faith will produce works, i.e. one follows the other? Is there proof that they are not rather simultaneous as the Catholics say?

There are two basic and important facts which must always be kept in mind when studying the matter of faith and works as related to salvation:

1. Salvation is always by faith apart from works.
2. Salvation by faith always results in works.

James is concerned with emphasizing the second of these two points. If you have saving faith, there will be works in your life. If there are no works, then you faith has not been a saving faith.
Questions like "How many works?" or "What about barren times in a life?" really do not affect the basic issue. The fact that there are some unbelievers who appear to be believers or some believers who seem to be living like unbelievers does not change the basic truth that true faith changes the life and results in works.
Judas was part of the inner circle of twelve during the earthly ministry of Christ, yet no one seemed to recognize that he was not truly a believer (cf. John 13:21-30).
The wheat and tares grow together and it is not always possible to distinguish between the two (cf. Matt. 13:24-30).
When Christ comes many will be surprised when they are excluded from His kingdom. They have been self-deceived (cf. Matt. 7:21-23).
But Jesus did say, "You will know them by their fruits" (Matt. 7:20).
This principle of not pushing every Scripture to the wall is seen in the Old Testament as well (cf. Ps. 33:18,19; 34:10-14; 37:25). This is clearly seen in the Book of Proverbs which states as fact things which are general principles.
The fact that a true believer will produce good works does not mean we have to be able to discern or see these in every single situation. Sometimes we will be fooled or just will not know.
James now proceeds to show that agreement with a good doctrinal statement does not mean a person has saving faith.
This section has occasioned much discussion, but all commentators are agreed on the basic teaching of the passage.
2:18 -
This verse considers what might be raised as an objection to what James teaches in verses 14-17.
I think the preferable - and simplest - view is that the objection is expressed in 18a: "You have faith, and I have works."
The difficulty is in identifying who is meant by "You" and "I." It may be that the objector is simply stating the two contrasting positions without trying to specify James in particular ("one has faith and another has works"). This would not be a normal interpretation of the words, however. The view I prefer sees the "you" as referring to some of James' readers and the "I" as referring to James himself.
The important point is that someone is challenging James by saying that faith and works can exist separately. James challenges the objector to demonstrate his faith without works. Faith is not a tangible entity and can only be seen in its results. James offers to demonstrate his faith by (out of) his works.
2:19 -
James now demonstrates that it is possible to have faith without salvation. If your faith has not led to works, then you do not have saving faith.
God is one goes back to Deuteronomy 6:4. All the Jews adhered to this great doctrinal statement. The problem is - so do the demons! In fact, the demons' faith is great enough to cause their hair to stand on end. They are in awe or terror of the living God (cf. Mark 1:24; 5:7; Acts 16:17).
In spite of this faith that God is one, everyone knows the demons are not saved. This clearly shows that you can have faith in a good doctrinal statement and not be saved.

A writer who argues against the importance of works following salvation comments:

There is no question here of 'this kind of faith' versus 'that kind of faith,' or 'faith which leads to this rather than to that.' The issue is simple faith in the divine offer (Hodges, p. 18).​

However, it is clear that the demons have faith! If they are not saved, it must mean that there is faith which does not lead to salvation.
According to a poll conducted by the Princeton Center, 64 percent of those who were classified as unchurched said they believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
2:20 -
are you willing to recognize - This question implies an unwillingness to face the facts which are obvious.
you foolish fellow (or "O vain man") - He needs to recognize the seriousness of being in the same position as the demons.
faith without works is useless - The word useless (arge) has the idea of "barren," "sterile," or "ineffective." The point is this kind of faith cannot produce the needed salvation (cf. v. 14).
Jesus taught a very similar truth in John 8:33-47. These Jews believed God is One and were confident in their position as descendants of Abraham (cf. v. 33,39).
Note the response of Jesus to their claim in verse 39: "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham."
He says their father is the devil and they do his deeds (cf. vv. 41,44).
John develops this emphasis in his first epistle (cf. 1 John 2:3-5,29; 3:6-10,14,15; 4:6-8,13).

Although Luther struggled with James 2, he recognized the biblical nature of faith in other contexts. For example, he wrote:

Faith is a living, restless thing. It cannot be inoperative. We are not saved by works; but if there be no works, there must be something amiss with faith. It is quite impossible to separate works from faith as to separate heat and light from fire.​

Donald Grey Barnhouse wrote: "There will be enough fundamentalists in hell to have a convention."

For salvation you must believe the facts of the gospel. If you have truly believed, your life will be transformed. Where works are deficient or lacking, we need to heed the exhortation of Paul to the Corinthians:

Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you unless indeed you fail the test? (2 Cor. 13:5).​

Peter wrote:

Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things you will never stumble (2 Pet. 1:10).​

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Also, in this section began with verse 14 and has been driving home the point that saving faith produces works in the life. James has just made the point that if all you have is faith in a good doctrinal statement, you have the same kind of faith that the demons have.

This makes clear that faith which does not result in works is useless as far as producing salvation is concerned (v. 20).
This leads him to two diverse but clear examples of faith producing works in the life: Abraham and Rahab.
Abraham is the individual selected as the representative man of faith in the New Testament.
2:21 -
The question assumes that the readers will agree that Abraham was justified by works.
Abraham our father - The Jewish audience would especially appreciate this identification. However, the New Testament identifies Abraham as "the father of all who believe" (Rom. 4:11).
justified by works - The emphasis is on "by works" (ek ergon) which stresses the source or reason, not the means, of Abraham's salvation.
justified - The basic idea of this word is "to declare righteous" and that seems to be its meaning in this context (cf. vv. 23,24).
The incident referred to is the offering of Isaac on the altar, which is recorded in Genesis 22:1-18. This event is recorded one other time in the New Testament - Hebrews 11:17-19.
To put this event in its proper perspective, we need to look at some of the critical events in the life of Abraham.

1. The call of Abraham--Genesis 11:31-12:3
   1. Acts 7:2-4
   2. Hebrews 11:8
   It is important to note that the salvation of Abraham probably occurred at the time of his call, if not before. He responded in faith to the Word of God on that occasion. This fits with the fact that when Abraham did enter Canaan he began building altars and calling on the name of the Lord (cf. Gen. 12:7,8).
   
   
2. The promise of descendants - Genesis 15:1-6.
   Abraham was 75 when he came into Canaan (12:4), and probably was around 85 at the time of this promise. What is important to note is that Abraham was already a saved man when this occurred. Many put the conversion of Abraham at Genesis 15:6. The clear statement of Abraham's faith and justification on this occasion make this an important verse in the New Testament (cf. Rom, 4:3; Gal. 3:6). However, what occurs here relates to the pattern of Abraham's life and not just to his initial salvation. He was a man who believed God and was justified because he believed.
   
   
3. The promise of a son - Genesis 17 (cf, esp, vv. 15,17,21)
   Abraham is now 99 and Sarah 89. Yet the response of Abraham to this promise is faith (cf. Rom. 4:18-22). Sarah too manifested faith in this extraordinary promise of God (cf. Heb 11:11).
4. The offering of Isaac - Genesis 22
   This brings us to the incident that James is using as an illustration. Hebrews 11:17 says that Abraham offered up Isaac by faith.

2:22 -
There was a close connection between the faith of Abraham and his works. His works evidenced a living (saving) faith.
faith was perfected - It accomplished its intended purpose or arrived at the intended goal. "As the tree is perfected by its fruits, so faith by its works" (Mayor). Genuine faith will issue forth in good works.
2:23 -
The truth of Genesis 15:6 is fulfilled or made full; it was seen to be true. Here was a man who believed God in the most difficult circumstances. Genesis 22 is a much more demanding situation than Genesis 15.
the friend of God (cf, 2 Chron. 20:7; Isa, 41:8) - James may have had the events of Genesis 18:17,18 in view also. The emphasis is on the closeness of relationship that Abraham enjoyed with God. Jesus calls His followers "friends" in John 15:14,15.
"A friend of God is not one who talks about God, but one who walks with God" (Zodhiates).
2:24 -
This verse is really an answer to the question in verse 14. The issue is salvation: "Can that faith save him?" The answer is no, because "a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
The last part of this verse is crucial to a proper understanding. The issue is not:

justification by faith
vs.
justification by works​

but​

justification by faith alone
vs.
justification by faith which produces works
​

"By faith Abraham . . . offered up Isaac" (Heb 11:17).
2:25 -
James offers a second illustration which is totally different from that of Abraham. This person was a Gentile, a woman, and a prostitute.
in the same way (homois) - Emphasizes that this is a second example with the same meaning as the first.
Rahab the harlot stresses her immoral background (cf. Josh. 2:1; 6:17,22,25; the full account is contained in Josh. 2).
The person and actions of Rahab were different from those of Abraham, yet the point in both is the same. They believed God and acted accordingly.
Hebrews 11:31 lists Rahab among the Old Testament giants in faith, saying, "By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish." James and Hebrews taken together show that saving faith always results in action.
2:26 -
The conclusion completes the section which began in verse 14. The body without the spirit is dead, it can accomplish nothing. So also faith without works is dead. It can accomplish nothing, especially the salvation that James is talking about (cf. 2:14,17,20,24,26).
Sound doctrine is the basis of saving faith. But truly believing the facts of the gospel will result in a changed life. So works are an essential result of saving faith. If there are no works, then the faith is merely intellectual assent. This even the demons do. "Faith alone justifies, but the faith which justifies is not alone" (John Calvin).

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[bradfordl]

Interesting... Where does it say that faith will produce works, i.e. one follows the other? Is there proof that they are not rather simultaneous as the Catholics say?

Here:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Grace through faith unto good works before ordained.

Unto: epi
ep-ee'
A primary preposition properly meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution [with the genitive case], that is, over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.: - about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, [where-]) fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-) on (behalf of) over, (by, for) the space of, through (-out), (un-) to (-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).

 

[Koey]

Works of the law and good works are two different things are they not? How do I know which is being spoken of when you say that faith without works saves? Didn't James say that faith without works is dead? Isn't saving faith a faith that must include or be evidenced by good works? Didn't Jesus tell the Pharisees to go and produce fruits (ie. works) that proved their repentance? Is this not a package whose components (faith, repentance and good works) go together?

 

[Boxmaker]

Do Arminians teach salvation by works? If yes why?

No, they don't. They teach salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Armninians use a more Biblical deffinition of works. Biblical works are the things that are done for otheres such as caring for the elderly, widows and orphans and so on.

Arminians belive that God draws us to Him. We see, through the application of law, that we are lost and doomed to hell. God gives us a choice, will we accept Christ as our saviour or reject Him. If you choose Christ you make a profession of faith (See Romans 9) and are saved.

A common miss-representation of this is to say that a profession of faith is a work of man. A profession of faith is not a work of man in the Biblical sense. God created us to responde to Him. That response is not forced in any way.

God bless you.