Arminianism is inconsistent

[John Robie]

You did not deal with what I wrote in #114. If this is your approach, I'll respond to others.

I did reply to it. You said I ignored context. I showed context. You gave your understanding of "appeared". I addressed that.

So maybe you missed all of that and would like to address my post. Otherwise it looks like you are just avoiding.

 

[OzSpen]

was that to me or a member i ignore? all i see is your post.

It wasn't to you buddy Blue!

 

[now faith]

There is nothing that would validate the Arminian position. The Scriptures are extremely clear that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone and that it is all the gift of God apart from man doing anything. Man is the recipient of the grace of God. We receive God's grace in Christ Jesus the Lord just like a glass receives water, passively. We take no part in it except to be filled. We then receive Christ as a man does when he takes that water and drinks for himself. We cannot receive the water until the glass has been filled. That is what God given faith does. Just like the Lord's Supper we who have been born of God take the bread and wine and make it a part of us. It is a picture of faith.

That is exactly what I said. The Scriptures are just not clear on the destiny of infants and those who cannot understand. What is clear is that there is no such thing as an age of accountability. All the race of Adam are born sinners and under the penalty of sin and death. There are no innocent infants.


This passage is a proof-text for Aminianism to be sure but it in no way establishes free will as the foundation of saving faith. It is a command from God who rules and sits on the throne of dominion over all of His creation. When the King gives a command we ignore it to our peril. What the passage does establish is that unbelief is insanity.

Man's natural depravity, darkness and hatred of God will always make us choose sin over following God. It is not until God gives us life and faith that we are enabled to make the choice to trust and rest in the finished work of Christ. While we do choose life it isn't until we have already been given life that we can do so.

How many times did God repent for his doing somthing in the scriptures?
How many times was God reminded of His covenant, and withheld Judgment?
How could a man negotiate with God?
God does not Change,so how are these events reconciled?
I do not believe in Theonmony or the term God repented implies he repented from sin.

We have to ask,when it repented God that he made man, was the fault God or was it man.
Noah chose to honor God and was found righteous enough to continue the human race.

If we truly believe God said let us make man in our image,then we must consider we get our emotions from God.
The question being when God made man in his image did he allow the same free will in man that is in him.

If he did not give free will how could Eve first then Adam disobey ,Cain murder ,Able obey ?
How do we view the phrase the way of cain?
Did God make Eve to sin or Adam ,or Cain to murder?
It could not be irresistible grace because Eve was beguiled by the serpent, and she disobeyed.

 

[Bluelion]

How many times did God repent for his doing somthing in the scriptures?
How many times was God reminded of His covenant, and withheld Judgment?
How could a man negotiate with God?
God does not Change,so how are these events reconciled?
I do not believe in Theonmony or the term God repented implies he repented from sin.

We have to ask,when it repented God that he made man, was the fault God or was it man.
Noah chose to honor God and was found righteous enough to continue the human race.

If we truly believe God said let us make man in our image,then we must consider we get our emotions from God.
The question being when God made man in his image did he allow the same free will in man that is in him.

If he did not give free will how could Eve first then Adam disobey ,Cain murder ,Able obey ?
How do we view the phrase the way of cain?
Did God make Eve to sin or Adam ,or Cain to murder?
It could not be irresistible grace because Eve was beguiled by the serpent, and she disobeyed.

I find that interesting Noah was counted righteous. God says not one under Heaven is righteous, not one seeks Him. Did God contradicted Himself? No. Everyone who was counted worthy and righteous God looked forward to Jesus on the cross and counted them by the actions of Jesus. But some will say people paid for their sins, in fact the payment for sin is death, so no they did not. King David suffered because he sinned, some time sin causes and action which can not be undone. Which is why Jesus found the man He healed and said your healed now stop sinning before something worse happens to you. The man had been lame for 38 years. There is a reason God tells us to stop as much sin as we can, it is not to get us into heaven.

If you take away free will then you also have to take away why evil is allowed to exist. If you say evil is so we can chose as God said who we will serve, then it is answered but if you say there is no choice, there is no reason for this world at all.

What I see from you, Oz, my self and some others is we answer questions. While other create more questions with out answering anything. So who is actually addressing the problem? I would have to say those that answer the questions.

 

[twin1954]

How many times did God repent for his doing somthing in the scriptures?

God never repented for if He did then He changed and that is not possible. Therefore we must understand that when the Scriptures speak of God repenting it is what is known as an anthropomorphism which is simply speaking in such a way as to put human characteristics on God so that we can get the idea. God didn't change His mind but simply acted exactly as He had intended to but used the circumstance to teach us something. Every instance where it speaks of God repenting was an illustration of the awfulness of the situation or to show us the mercy of God.

How many times was God reminded of His covenant, and withheld Judgment?

Do you really think that God needed to be reminded of His covenant? Of course not! The reminding was for the man not for God. Just as in prayer we lay hold of and speak of the promises of God not to remind Him of them for that is ridiculous but to remind ourselves. Reminding God of His covenant wasn't for God but for us.

How could a man negotiate with God?

He didn't actually. God again did exactly as He had intended to do but showed Abraham the wickedness of the city by allowing him to try to negotiate mercy. Can a man truly negotiate the mercy of God?

God does not Change,so how are these events reconciled?

I believe I just reconciled them.

I do not believe in Theonmony or the term God repented implies he repented from sin.

While Israel was under Moses and Joshua and the judges it was a theonomy but when they desired a king, just like the rest of the world around them btw, God allowed them a king and it didn't turn out well. At least it didn't until David the man after God's own heart was made King by God. Of course we know that David was a type of Christ so God purposed it actually.

We have to ask,when it repented God that he made man, was the fault God or was it man.

It was man of course but all according to the purpose of God in order to show us the wickedness of man in his nature and how the mercy of God in Christ was to be revealed. The Ark of Noah is a beautiful picture of salvation in Christ. All the wrath of God fell on the Ark but not one drop fell on those in the Ark. Actually everything about the Ark shows us something of Christ.

Noah chose to honor God and was found righteous enough to continue the human race.

Noah's righteousness was exactly the same as ours, by imputation. It is believed that the book of Job is possibly pre-flood or perhaps soon after yet Job knew that his Redeemer would live on the earth in the latter days and that he would be resurrected with Him in order to see Him with his own eyes. Job 19:25-27

If we truly believe God said let us make man in our image,then we must consider we get our emotions from God.
The question being when God made man in his image did he allow the same free will in man that is in him.

Adam had a free will so to speak but still not a libertarian free will. He did exactly as we do. He did what he desired to do and he did exactly as God had before purposed for him to do. We know by Paul's writing to Timothy in 1Tim. 2:14 that Adam was not deceived but Eve. Adam went into sin with his eyes wide open. He desired the woman more than he desired God. He knew she must die and determined to die with her. Of course that would be another picture of Christ. He was one flesh with her and loved her and gave himself for her.

If he did not give free will how could Eve first then Adam disobey ,Cain murder ,Able obey ?

All according to the purpose of God. The Scriptures nowhere speak of God having a plan they speak of Him having a purpose. Plans can be changed according to circumstances but a purpose cannot change. Every detail of the lives of men spoken of in the Scriptures was ordered in perfect purpose in order to bring to pass what God had determined before to do according to His purpose. You can see it clearly in the example of Joseph. Joseph's brothers meant to do evil to him but God meant it for good. Gen. 50:20

How do we view the phrase the way of cain?

The way of Cain is false worship in the name of God and Christ. It is the way of all men naturally as seen by how soon the offspring of Cain began to worship other gods and pervert the worship of God.

Did God make Eve to sin or Adam ,or Cain to murder?

Of course not! They did exactly as they desired to do and are responsible for their sin and did exactly as God had purposed for them to do. We would be like the angels and know nothing of the wondrous mercy and grace of God if the Fall had not happened.

It could not be irresistible grace because Eve was beguiled by the serpent, and she disobeyed.

Nonsense. I just showed you how she did what she wanted and what God had purposed for her to do.

You must learn to not take passages of Scripture as though they stand alone. The Scriptures are a whole and they teach throughout one truth. We must understand every passage of Scripture in its immediate context and the context of the teaching of the whole of the Scriptures. Stand alone understanding of the Scriptures brings many problems and inconsistencies, errors and heresies that could be avoided if the whole of the Scriptures are understood in a complete and consistent manner.


Now I have answered your questions, as I have before, so deal with my answers instead of asking more questions.

<STAFF EDIT>

 

[now faith]

God never repented for if He did then He changed and that is not possible. Therefore we must understand that when the Scriptures speak of God repenting it is what is known as an anthropomorphism which is simply speaking in such a way as to put human characteristics on God so that we can get the idea. God didn't change His mind but simply acted exactly as He had intended to but used the circumstance to teach us something. Every instance where it speaks of God repenting was an illustration of the awfulness of the situation or to show us the mercy of God.
Do you really think that God needed to be reminded of His covenant? Of course not! The reminding was for the man not for God. Just as in prayer we lay hold of and speak of the promises of God not to remind Him of them for that is ridiculous but to remind ourselves. Reminding God of His covenant wasn't for God but for us.
He didn't actually. God again did exactly as He had intended to do but showed Abraham the wickedness of the city by allowing him to try to negotiate mercy. Can a man truly negotiate the mercy of God?
I believe I just reconciled them.
While Israel was under Moses and Joshua and the judges it was a theonomy but when they desired a king, just like the rest of the world around them btw, God allowed them a king and it didn't turn out well. At least it didn't until David the man after God's own heart was made King by God. Of course we know that David was a type of Christ so God purposed it actually.

It was man of course but all according to the purpose of God in order to show us the wickedness of man in his nature and how the mercy of God in Christ was to be revealed. The Ark of Noah is a beautiful picture of salvation in Christ. All the wrath of God fell on the Ark but not one drop fell on those in the Ark. Actually everything about the Ark shows us something of Christ.
Noah's righteousness was exactly the same as ours, by imputation. It is believed that the book of Job is possibly pre-flood or perhaps soon after yet Job knew that his Redeemer would live on the earth in the latter days and that he would be resurrected with Him in order to see Him with his own eyes. Job 19:25-27

Adam had a free will so to speak but still not a libertarian free will. He did exactly as we do. He did what he desired to do and he did exactly as God had before purposed for him to do. We know by Paul's writing to Timothy in 1Tim. 2:14 that Adam was not deceived but Eve. Adam went into sin with his eyes wide open. He desired the woman more than he desired God. He knew she must die and determined to die with her. Of course that would be another picture of Christ. He was one flesh with her and loved her and gave himself for her.

All according to the purpose of God. The Scriptures nowhere speak of God having a plan they speak of Him having a purpose. Plans can be changed according to circumstances but a purpose cannot change. Every detail of the lives of men spoken of in the Scriptures was ordered in perfect purpose in order to bring to pass what God had determined before to do according to His purpose. You can see it clearly in the example of Joseph. Joseph's brothers meant to do evil to him but God meant it for good. Gen. 50:20
The way of Cain is false worship in the name of God and Christ. It is the way of all men naturally as seen by how soon the offspring of Cain began to worship other gods and pervert the worship of God.
Of course not! They did exactly as they desired to do and are responsible for their sin and did exactly as God had purposed for them to do. We would be like the angels and know nothing of the wondrous mercy and grace of God if the Fall had not happened.
Nonsense. I just showed you how she did what she wanted and what God had purposed for her to do.

You must learn to not take passages of Scripture as though they stand alone. The Scriptures are a whole and they teach throughout one truth. We must understand every passage of Scripture in its immediate context and the context of the teaching of the whole of the Scriptures. Stand alone understanding of the Scriptures brings many problems and inconsistencies, errors and heresies that could be avoided if the whole of the Scriptures are understood in a complete and consistent manner.


Now I have answered your questions, as I have before, so deal with my answers instead of asking more questions.

<STAFF EDIT>

I ask questions not to promote my belief,but to comprehend yours.

Adam had free will but not Libertarian free will?

If Adam was not morally responsible for his actions,due to God's ultimate purpose, how can we hold anyone who sins responsible if it is God's will?

This is a theological concept that circumstances may change, but purpose is fulfilled.
If this is true there is no accountability for man's actions.


Quote Twinn:
While Israel was under Moses and Joshua and the judges it was a theonomy but when they desired a king, just like the rest of the world around them btw, God allowed them a king and it didn't turn out well. At least it didn't until David the man after God's own heart was made King by God. Of course we know that David was a type of Christ so God purposed it actually.

God's Law was not fulfilled until Christ finished work of redemption, and we are living in a New Covenant but the law exist in our hearts .

If man was purposed by God,there would have been no law,man would have abode in God's will according to God's purpose.

I believe the misunderstanding lies in the conjecture of free will.

<STAFF EDIT>

 

[now faith]

I find that interesting Noah was counted righteous. God says not one under Heaven is righteous, not one seeks Him. Did God contradicted Himself? No. Everyone who was counted worthy and righteous God looked forward to Jesus on the cross and counted them by the actions of Jesus. But some will say people paid for their sins, in fact the payment for sin is death, so no they did not. King David suffered because he sinned, some time sin causes and action which can not be undone. Which is why Jesus found the man He healed and said your healed now stop sinning before something worse happens to you. The man had been lame for 38 years. There is a reason God tells us to stop as much sin as we can, it is not to get us into heaven.

If you take away free will then you also have to take away why evil is allowed to exist. If you say evil is so we can chose as God said who we will serve, then it is answered but if you say there is no choice, there is no reason for this world at all.

What I see from you, Oz, my self and some others is we answer questions. While other create more questions with out answering anything. So who is actually addressing the problem? I would have to say those that answer the questions.

I need to ask questions to better understand the doctrine being taught.
I believe man has to be reminded of the covenants of God ,and God does not change.
But I still ask the question to find out what the others are thinking.

There can exist no evil without good nor good without evil,on this earth.
We are for a short while flesh and blood with minds that are corrupt.

Who we truly are is within our Spirit being,this Spirit will live for eternity.

 

[Bluelion]

I need to ask questions to better understand the doctrine being taught.
I believe man has to be reminded of the covenants of God ,and God does not change.
But I still ask the question to find out what the others are thinking.

There can exist no evil without good nor good without evil,on this earth.
We are for a short while flesh and blood with minds that are corrupt.

Who we truly are is within our Spirit being,this Spirit will live for eternity.

I must disagree brother there can be Good with out evil, but there can not be choice without evil. If all we can do is Good there is no choice but if we can do the opposite evil we have choice. I believe choice is limited to who will be our God, God wanted us to follow Him out of love and not because we had no choice. When we choose God we are slaves of God. It is a paradox, you think with slave there is no freedom but with God His slaves are free than any one here on earth. Now brother people will hate you for that truth. People of this world hate truth because it is the light and they live in the darkness and love it.

Just remember brother these words from God. 1 John 3:14-15 14 If we love our brothers and sisters who are believers, it proves that we have passed from death to life. But a person who has no love is still dead.15 Anyone who hates another brother or sister is really a murderer at heart. And you know that murderers don’t have eternal life within them.

Carry on brother, carry on.

 

[now faith]

I must disagree brother there can be Good with out evil, but there can not be choice without evil. If all we can do is Good there is no choice but if we can do the opposite evil we have choice. I believe choice is limited to who will be our God, God wanted us to follow Him out of love and not because we had no choice. When we choose God we are slaves of God. It is a paradox, you think with slave there is no freedom but with God His slaves are free than any one here on earth. Now brother people will hate you for that truth. People of this world hate truth because it is the light and they live in the darkness and love it.

Just remember brother these words from God. 1 John 3:14-15 14 If we love our brothers and sisters who are believers, it proves that we have passed from death to life. But a person who has no love is still dead.15 Anyone who hates another brother or sister is really a murderer at heart. And you know that murderers don’t have eternal life within them.

Carry on brother, carry on.

I do not think it is a paradoxical view point,it falls under the law of identity.

Adam and Eves idenity changed after the fall.

Before the fall they had not sinned, so they did not know evil existed they.

.after the fall they tried to cover there sin realizing they they were

 

[Bluelion]

I do not think it is a paradoxical view point,it falls under the law of identity.

Adam and Eves idenity changed after the fall.

Before the fall they had not sinned, so they did not know evil existed they.

.after the fall they tried to cover there sin realizing they they were

I was speaking of a slave being free.

Adam and Eve were a bit different than us they were born prefect and sinned, be we were born in sin imperfect and became born again and will be perfect again. For us we don't know what it is like to have a body with out sin.

 

[twin1954]

I do not think it is a paradoxical view point,it falls under the law of identity.

Adam and Eves idenity changed after the fall.

Before the fall they had not sinned, so they did not know evil existed they.

.after the fall they tried to cover there sin realizing they they were

Adam and Eve knew evil existed but had never experienced it. Adam wasn't created stupid or ignorant he was created brilliant in fact. He was created to rule over all of God's creation and named every animal. He was smart enough to walk with God and commune with Him. That is one of the reasons the Fall was so outrageous. Adam went against all that he knew and had experienced. And we think that we, who don't even come close to what Adam was, can resist the temptations of sin? Do we honestly think that we will choose God when Adam didn't. How self-righteous of anyone to think that they are able to do something that Adam didn't do.

That is why we must be born again. We must be given new eyes to see, and new heart to believe and be made a new creation in order to do what Adam wasn't able to do.

 

[twin1954]

I was speaking of a slave being free.

Adam and Eve were a bit different than us they were born prefect and sinned, be we were born in sin imperfect and became born again and will be perfect again. For us we don't know what it is like to have a body with out sin.

Adam wasn't born he was created. There is a great difference especially in a theological sense. And moreover he wasn't created perfect for if he had been he would not have plunged us all into the depravity of sin.

He was created righteous and good but not perfect.

 

[now faith]

Adam and Eve knew evil existed but had never experienced it. Adam wasn't created stupid or ignorant he was created brilliant in fact. He was created to rule over all of God's creation and named every animal. He was smart enough to walk with God and commune with Him. That is one of the reasons the Fall was so outrageous. Adam went against all that he knew and had experienced. And we think that we, who don't even come close to what Adam was, can resist the temptations of sin? Do we honestly think that we will choose God when Adam didn't. How self-righteous of anyone to think that they are able to do something that Adam didn't do.

That is why we must be born again. We must be given new eyes to see, and new heart to believe and be made a new creation in order to do what Adam wasn't able to do.

I can not find where Adam was tempted by evil,or that he knew of the existence of evil before his fall with Eve.

His realisation of good and evil came the moment he had eaten from the tree of knowledge.
We can see this example when God asks (who told you thou art naked)

 

[twin1954]

I can not find where Adam was tempted by evil,or that he knew of the existence of evil before his fall with Eve.

His realisation of good and evil came the moment he had eaten from the tree of knowledge.
We can see this example when God asks (who told you thou art naked)

I didn't say that he was tempted by evil but he knew that evil existed because he knew that to disobey God and eat the fruit was evil.

He feared being naked only after the Fall because he understood what nakedness meant. It meant to have your sin exposed before the eye of a Holy and just God.
(Gen 3:10) And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Now he knew by experience what evil was and feared because of it. Moreover he not only tried to blame the woman but God for his sin.

 

[now faith]

I still disagree Brother,Adam knew he was to obey the Lord but sin had not entered the world as yet.

It depends on how you view disobedience in relation to to purposeful evil.

As Eve said the Serpent beguiled me,or otherwise tempted her.

Did Adam and Eve know the Serpent was evil?

Never the less they made the choice to disobey God,I personally believe Adam had eaten the fruit for the sake of Eve.

I do not know how by scripture we can say either one knew evil existed prior to gaining knowlage from the tree.

Being naked and not ashamed tells us of innocent nature,in covering themselves tells us of a revelation they experienced by way of disobedience.

Does a child know somthing is hot even when you tell them?
But when they burn themselves they will warn you carful,that's hot Dad!

It was the tree of knowledge that brought the revelation of good and evil:Genesis: 2. 17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Just the trees name gives us the answer,without eating from they would not have knowlage of good and evil.

Let's agree to disagree ,as always I enjoy discussing God's Word with you.

God Bless

 

[twin1954]

I still disagree Brother,Adam knew he was to obey the Lord but sin had not entered the world as yet.

It depends on how you view disobedience in relation to to purposeful evil.

As Eve said the Serpent beguiled me,or otherwise tempted her.

Did Adam and Eve know the Serpent was evil?

Never the less they made the choice to disobey God,I personally believe Adam had eaten the fruit for the sake of Eve.

I do not know how by scripture we can say either one knew evil existed prior to gaining knowlage from the tree.

Being naked and not ashamed tells us of innocent nature,in covering themselves tells us of a revelation they experienced by way of disobedience.

Does a child know somthing is hot even when you tell them?
But when they burn themselves they will warn you carful,that's hot Dad!

It was the tree of knowledge that brought the revelation of good and evil:Genesis: 2. 17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Just the trees name gives us the answer,without eating from they would not have knowlage of good and evil.

Let's agree to disagree ,as always I enjoy discussing God's Word with you.

God Bless

You are actually making my point for me. But I will leave it and not debate it with you any longer.

I enjoy discussing the Scriptures with you as well.

 

[now faith]

I do get your point,it is our perspective on the topic that may differ,sometimes we are on same track but just do not realize it.

Thanks

 

[Bluelion]

I still disagree Brother,Adam knew he was to obey the Lord but sin had not entered the world as yet.

It depends on how you view disobedience in relation to to purposeful evil.

As Eve said the Serpent beguiled me,or otherwise tempted her.

Did Adam and Eve know the Serpent was evil?

Never the less they made the choice to disobey God,I personally believe Adam had eaten the fruit for the sake of Eve.

I do not know how by scripture we can say either one knew evil existed prior to gaining knowlage from the tree.

Being naked and not ashamed tells us of innocent nature,in covering themselves tells us of a revelation they experienced by way of disobedience.

Does a child know somthing is hot even when you tell them?
But when they burn themselves they will warn you carful,that's hot Dad!

It was the tree of knowledge that brought the revelation of good and evil:Genesis: 2. 17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Just the trees name gives us the answer,without eating from they would not have knowlage of good and evil.

Let's agree to disagree ,as always I enjoy discussing God's Word with you.

God Bless

was this to me? I was never arguing they knew evil before the fall. Just we are free as slaves to God. I don't think Adam and Eve had made a choice yet who to serve. They knew God, but what they chose was to disobey, they could have just as easily eaten from the tree of life instead of good and evil. They both were in the center of the garden. Again we see choice come into play. As God says choose this day who we will serve. That has been the choice from the start.

 

[Omah1970]

I am a Baptist but I am not a Calvinist either nor am I an Arminian. I do believe we have to chose God or God won't chose us. I am Arminian in that thinking but I do believe in Eternal Security so that disqualifies me as Arminian. What do Calvinists and Arminian folk call those of us who believe both sides have merits?

 

[twin1954]

I am a Baptist but I am not a Calvinist either nor am I an Arminian. I do believe we have to chose God or God won't chose us. I am Arminian in that thinking but I do believe in Eternal Security so that disqualifies me as Arminian. What do Calvinists and Arminian folk call those of us who believe both sides have merits?

Confused.