Arminianism is inconsistent

[Hoghead1]

In the Bible, Oz, Dawn, and Twin, God is always shaking up the status quo. The Exodus from Egypt is one major example. Another is talking a nomadic, semi-barbaric, semi-literate people and turning them into a mighty nation. When they broke the covenant, didn't do their share, they got a very rude awakening. Another example is Christ really shaking them up about all the laws. God, I believe, is eternally creative. And so in a way, God is an anarchist. God is the Cosmic Artist, not Ruling Caesar, Ruthless moralist, or Unmoved Mover. Whenever you being in creative ideas, you shake up the establishment but good.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

In the Bible, Oz, Dawn, and Twin, God is always shaking up the status quo. The Exodus from Egypt is one major example. Another is talking a nomadic, semi-barbaric, semi-literate people and turning them into a mighty nation. When they broke the covenant, didn't do their share, they got a very rude awakening. Another example is Christ really shaking them up about all the laws. God, I believe, is eternally creative. And so in a way, God is an anarchist. God is the Cosmic Artist, not Ruling Caesar, Ruthless moralist, or Unmoved Mover. Whenever you being in creative ideas, you shake up the establishment but good.

Does God say His purpose in Exodus was to shake up the status quo?

Romans 9:17
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth."

I don't believe He was trying to foster creative potential in us. There is no doubt that God is the grand designer, but your view of God needs a little bit more scripture behind it. Do you believe in the authority of scripture? I ask only because many on this forum have a very low view of it.

 

[Bluelion]

Does God say His purpose in Exodus was to shake up the status quo?

Romans 9:17
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth."

I don't believe He was trying to foster creative potential in us. There is no doubt that God is the grand designer, but your view of God needs a little bit more scripture behind it. Do you believe in the authority of scripture? I ask only because many on this forum have a very low view of it.

i suppose you will say that God destine him to go to hell? When in fact God harden his heart because he had already harden against God and the Jews so He harden it even further as punishment.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

i suppose you will say that God destine him to go to hell? When in fact God harden his heart because he had already harden against God and the Jews so He harden it even further as punishment.

If the Lord Almighty wanted Pharoah in His kingdom then why not soften his heart? Why harden it further? I have my answer: Pharoah wasn't a vessel of mercy, but a vessel of wrath.

Romans 9:19-23
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

God is the potter: We are the clay. If he destined some for wrath who are we to answer back?

 

[ClothedInGrace]

I gather, Clothed, you think the Exodus was due more to God getting into ego battle with the Pharaoh than for God to care about the slaves. I disagree. It is a decisive act of political liberation.
You asked me abut my view of Scripture. I initially thought of doing my doctorate in biblical studies, as I am good with languages and the Higher Criticism. However, I finally decided on theology. I think that Scripture has suffered by so many myths being place upon it. I agree with my OT professor, who use to boldly walk into class, dramatically toss the Bible in the wastebasket, and say in a loud voice, "The Bible is the Word of Man. The Word of God is revealed through the Word of Man." I see the Bible as a product of a divine-human interaction. Divinely inspirited as teh Bible may be, it is still the product of a racist, sexist, semi-barbaric, prescientific society. Too often, people forget that and fall into the error of bibliolatry.

Well there you go. I guess you'd toss the Bible in the wastebasket as your professor had done, yes?

 

[Hoghead1]

It would depend on what class I was teaching, Clothed, and what point I was trying to make. If I wanted to attack bibliolatry, I might do that. I am an amateur symphony conductor, well-educated, but not in the big time. I have already thrown a metronome, emphasizing that music must breathe and not be mechanical. I also one time flung a score, saying I wanted to relate directly to the music and so not have the score in my face. One of my conducting instructors actually did yank the score right out from under me and said do it from memory or don't do it at all. I have cautioned people that an exclusive reliance on Scripture makes the religion a static, backward-looking affair, that we need to directly focus on today. So I might yank the Bible out of someone's hands and say tell me what you see.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

I have cautioned people that an exclusive reliance on Scripture makes the religion a static, backward-looking affair, that we need to directly focus on today. So I might yank the Bible out of someone's hands and say tell me what you see.

Right, because the truth should be in motion, always changing with the tides of human desire. Abandoning scripture is not smart, friend.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

The phrase "inspired by God" in Greek is theopneustos, which means God-breathed. If you throw out the words that God has spoken to us then by what authority do you say what you do? Jesus taught only what He heard from the father, and likewise we Christians should only believe what has been given to us in the God-breathed scriptures.

If you abandon the scriptures then there is really no reason to debate, because you believe whatever the world tells you.

 

[Bluelion]

If the Lord Almighty wanted Pharoah in His kingdom then why not soften his heart? Why harden it further? I have my answer: Pharoah wasn't a vessel of mercy, but a vessel of wrath.

Romans 9:19-23
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

God is the potter: We are the clay. If he destined some for wrath who are we to answer back?

Your own words convict you. It is you questioning how God does things, did you not say if God wanted him in heaven why not soften his heart? so you question God's judgement in the matter and His Authority. I would take heed to the verse you just quoted because you just did what Paul said not to do. In fact you don't understand the writing of Paul here and you take the verse out of context and I don't care to put it into context for you, when you will not admit you are wrong in the first place. So what else you got?

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Your own words convict you. It is you questioning how God does things, did you not say if God wanted him in heaven why not soften his heart? so you question God's judgement in the matter and His Authority. I would take heed to the verse you just quoted because you just did what Paul said not to do. In fact you don't understand the writing of Paul here and you take the verse out of context and I don't care to put it into context for you, when you will not admit you are wrong in the first place. So what else you got?

Those questions were for you to ask yourself: In my post I already gave my answer. The goal in asking those questions was for you to reflect on your own beliefs and share with me your answer.

 

[Bluelion]

I gather, Clothed, you think the Exodus was due more to God getting into ego battle with the Pharaoh than for God to care about the slaves. I disagree. It is a decisive act of political liberation.
You asked me abut my view of Scripture. I initially thought of doing my doctorate in biblical studies, as I am good with languages and the Higher Criticism. However, I finally decided on theology. I think that Scripture has suffered by so many myths being place upon it. I agree with my OT professor, who use to boldly walk into class, dramatically toss the Bible in the wastebasket, and say in a loud voice, "The Bible is the Word of Man. The Word of God is revealed through the Word of Man." I see the Bible as a product of a divine-human interaction. Divinely inspirited as teh Bible may be, it is still the product of a racist, sexist, semi-barbaric, prescientific society. Too often, people forget that and fall into the error of bibliolatry.

Well I actually am majoring in Biblical and theology studies. and you missed the whole point it is the inspired work of God, meaning free from worldly influences such as everything you just named. Frankly I would be scared to treat the word of God in such a way. After all we are warned not to take what is uncommon and holy and make it common, that is a sin.

 

[Bluelion]

Those questions were for you to ask yourself: In my post I already gave my answer. The goal in asking those questions was for you to reflect on your own beliefs and share with me your answer.

Those are questions you asked however way you would like to try to retract them they are out there. I don't need answers to those questions. God does not hide His will from His children, so let me shoot. Because each man is give a time to repent, this is shown through out history with God even saying He gave some races time to repent or their time is not yet up. Even Israel was given a time then conquered and repeat this. So pharaoh had been given a time and instead of his heart being soften by the suffering of the Jews he harden it and did it on purpose, so his time ran out, and now his time of punishment had come. His first punishment was his heart to be harden further which made it much worse for him and his people, because pharaoh was seen as god and was there god. so all the people drank from his cup of suffering because he was there god, and the people were still not innocent they abused the Jews as well and wanted the slaves they did nothing to help them so were just as guilty. hows that?

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Those are questions you asked however way you would like to try to retract them they are out there. I don't need answers to those questions. God does not hide His will from His children, so let me shoot. Because each man is give a time to repent, this is shown through out history with God even saying He gave some races time to repent or their time is not yet up. Even Israel was given a time then conquered and repeat this. So pharaoh had been given a time and instead of his heart being soften by the suffering of the Jews he harden it and did it on purpose, so his time ran out, and now his time of punishment had come. His first punishment was his heart to be harden further which made it much worse for him and his people, because pharaoh was seen as god and was there god. so all the people drank from his cup of suffering because he was there god, and the people were still not innocent they abused the Jews as well and wanted the slaves they did nothing to help them so were just as guilty. hows that?

I don't know. Did God want to save pharaoh? Do you believe God could have saved pharaoh if He wanted to?

 

[Bluelion]

I don't know. Did God want to save pharaoh? Do you believe God could have saved pharaoh if He wanted to?

God says He is willing not one be lost but all come to repent and be saved. He does not say this once but many times in the Bible that He wants all to be saved. So yes He wanted him saved. God did all He could to save him, but God could not. How do you force a person to love you? Love is free a choice. You have to love God. That is the reason for this world and why some who prophesy in Jesus name will go to hell, because they do not truly Love God even though they Know He is God.

This is old the whole q and A that is what you group does and you think it is teaching. I have the answers it is you who says God's will is unknown to His children.

 

[Hoghead1]

If you hold, Clothed, that God dictated word for word the Bible, then yes, we have to stick to it. However, I do not believe it went down that way. I don't think the Bible is inerrant. I know it contains many contradictions. I think the higher authority for anyone to go on is our personal experience. I think that transcends anything written down in books. that doesn't mean that books or the Bible are unimportant,m just that they are no substitute for experiencing the real thing.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

God did all He could to save him, but God could not.

So much for God's love and power, right?

I think the higher authority for anyone to go on is our personal experience.

Personal experiences are subjective. Is truth subjective in your view?

 

[Hoghead1]

I believe all knowledge comes through experience. What you are talking about here is your personal experience reading the Bible. Does that make you subjective? What is meant by subjective anyway?
Also, God can't and doesn't force things. So sometimes God's love and power do not achieve the desired result, a point well recognized in Calvin, by the way. God is dealing with individuals who have a free will. And that means they can resist God.

 

[Bluelion]

So much for God's love and power, right?


Personal experiences are subjective. Is truth subjective in your view?

and yet again you do what Paul said not to do, or are you just trying to cause me to stumble by questioning God. And children of God do that to each other where in the Bible?

God's love well it was enough for me, but God tells us some people love evil. some people love to hurt others that is what gives them pleasure and they love this more than God, other don't want God so they don't have to have God.

As far as God's power well you would never say the things you just said if you Knew God's power. I don't claim to know all of His power I know only a small fraction but it is enough to serve its purpose. have a nice night now. Lol wow lol just have to laugh sometimes.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Also, God can't and doesn't force things.

You have no evidence to support your claim. Only your own human experience.

and yet again you do what Paul said not to do, or are you just trying to cause me to stumble by questioning God. And children of God do that to each other where in the Bible?

God's love well it was enough for me, but God tells us some people love evil. some people love to hurt others that is what gives them pleasure and they love this more than God, other don't want God so they don't have to have God.

As far as God's power well you would never say the things you just said if you Knew God's power. I don't claim to know all of His power I know only a small fraction but it is enough to serve its purpose. have a nice night now. Lol wow lol just have to laugh sometimes.

Goodnight.

 

[Bluelion]

You have no evidence to support your claim. Only your own human experience.



Goodnight.

One more thing Some people remind me of Raptors, ever see Jurassic Park, they kept hitting the fence looking for any weak areas so they could break through. Wonder what made me think of that lol night now.

 

[Hoghead1]

I have no idea where you are coming from, Bluelion. The Bible depicts a continual struggle between God and creation. Many things do not go the way God wanted them, as per Gen. 6:6. In his sermon on Jeremiah 6:10, Calvin stated, "Our Lord did everything possible to correct his people, as a father would his child. Seeing that he could not succeed in converting men to righteousness, he laments, saying,'Alas, am I not unhappy? For I have done everything possible to make men righteous, yet I have not succeeded.'"