Arminianism is inconsistent

[Bluelion]

I know quite well there are many who profess to be saved and are not. It's a sad reality, but Christianity for many is simply a religion they follow to feel good and righteous. Some don't understand that Christianity is about salvation from our sins in Jesus Christ. Ultimately, Jesus knows who is in His flock and who is not: He knows who has a God-given faith rather than a religious one. I'm not quite sure why you shared your story, but I do agree with what you learned from it.

I share it maybe it can help someone.

 

[Bluelion]

I suggest in your studies you examine the biblical teaching on God's providence in which Scripture teaches that God, the Son, 'upholds the universe by the word of his power' (Heb 1:3 ESV).

Let's check out a few verses over whether the laws of nature take over or whether God is in control of the elements of weather.

Take a read of Old Testament writers. They were open in attributing the forces of nature to God himself. Let's look at a few examples:

View attachment 171765 Leviticus 26:19-20 (ESV): 'and I will break the pride of your power, and I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze. 20 And your strength shall be spent in vain, for your land shall not yield its increase, and the trees of the land shall not yield their fruit'.

View attachment 171767 Deuteronomy 11:13-15 (ESV), '“And if you will indeed obey my commandments that I command you today, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul, 14 he will give the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the later rain, that you may gather in your grain and your wine and your oil. 15 And he will give grass in your fields for your livestock, and you shall eat and be full'.

View attachment 171769 2 Chron 7:13(ESV), 'When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command the locust to devour the land, or send pestilence among my people'.

View attachment 171766 Psalm 42:7 (ESV), 'Deep calls to deep at the roar of your waterfalls; all your breakers and your waves have gone over me'.

View attachment 171768 Psalm 147:15-18 (ESV), 'He sends out his command to the earth; his word runs swiftly. 16 He gives snow like wool; he scatters frost like ashes. 17 He hurls down his crystals of ice like crumbs; who can stand before his cold? 18 He sends out his word, and melts them; he makes his wind blow and the waters flow'.

View attachment 171771 Psalm 148:8 (ESV), 'fire and hail, snow and mist, stormy wind fulfilling his word!'

View attachment 171770 Nahum 1:3 (ESV), 'The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and the Lord will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet'.

View attachment 171773 Matt 5:45 (ESV), 'For he [God the Father] makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust'.

View attachment 171772 Luke 8:25 (ESV), 'He said to them, “Where is your faith?” And they were afraid, and they marveled, saying to one another, “Who then is this, that he commands even winds and water, and they obey him?”'

View attachment 171774 Heb 1:3 (ESV): 'He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high'.

There is a contemporary example of God's providential control of the weather:


See the article, 'Who controls the weather?'

There is sufficient biblical evidence to demonstrate that God controls the weather and we haven't even looked at Job's situation.

Oz

Brother i feel you are misunderstanding me. No doubt God controls the weather, but even at the end of the article you link He says I am not saying every hail storm or snow fall is God's judgement. I agree with God affects the weather however, I also believe there are natural and unnatural things which effect it also. Take pollution we know this effects the weather. I think some storms God sends but some are not His judgement at all. Some times it just rains.

Take hurricane sandy that hit here, It blocked us in cutting off the only roads out, we were with out power for a week. It could have been much worse. I did not think God is angry with me, I know God led me here. In fact you could say it was prophecy that I come to live where I do, long story on that one. So i know God wants me here why send such a storm? Then again just this year my heart did not want snow, I said just one day get all the snow and have the rest free. One day we got 30 inches and it pretty much did not snow the rest the year. Do I think God hears me yes, so I wonder if God did not do that, but also sometimes it just rains.

I think it would be foolish to say every storm has meaning. Some very much so, was it not hati which declared some pagan religion the national religion?

 

[OzSpen]

OZ elucidates who is attacking and denigrating whom.

Who is that?

 

[OzSpen]

Brother i feel you are misunderstanding me. No doubt God controls the weather, but even at the end of the article you link He says I am not saying every hail storm or snow fall is God's judgement. I agree with God affects the weather however, I also believe there are natural and unnatural things which effect it also. Take pollution we know this effects the weather. I think some storms God sends but some are not His judgement at all. Some times it just rains.

Take hurricane sandy that hit here, It blocked us in cutting off the only roads out, we were with out power for a week. It could have been much worse. I did not think God is angry with me, I know God led me here. In fact you could say it was prophecy that I come to live where I do, long story on that one. So i know God wants me here why send such a storm? Then again just this year my heart did not want snow, I said just one day get all the snow and have the rest free. One day we got 30 inches and it pretty much did not snow the rest the year. Do I think God hears me yes, so I wonder if God did not do that, but also sometimes it just rains.

I think it would be foolish to say every storm has meaning. Some very much so, was it not hati which declared some pagan religion the national religion?

Blue,

Of course there are secondary causes such as pollution, dams on rivers, destruction of the habitat, etc that affect rain and drought. However, it is still God who sends the rain & snow, or withholds it. I do not serve a deistic God who wound up the universe to let it run and he left us. The Almighty God is actively involved in sending the rain and drought on the just and the unjust.

I'm not suggesting every storm has 'meaning' that I can prophetically understand. However, God can send judgment in the natural elements, but I wouldn't second guess what God is up to with the cyclones, tornadoes, hurricanes, floods and tsunamis he sends.

See, 'A Study of the Providence of God' by Wayne Jackson.

Oz

 

[Bluelion]

Blue,

Of course there are secondary causes such as pollution, dams on rivers, destruction of the habitat, etc that affect rain and drought. However, it is still God who sends the rain & snow, or withholds it. I do not serve a deistic God who wound up the universe to let it run and he left us. The Almighty God is actively involved in sending the rain and drought on the just and the unjust.

I'm not suggesting every storm has 'meaning' that I can prophetically understand. However, God can send judgment in the natural elements, but I wouldn't second guess what God is up to with the cyclones, tornadoes, hurricanes, floods and tsunamis he sends.

See, 'A Study of the Providence of God' by Wayne Jackson.

Oz

Good then we agree question was it not hati which changed it religion to vodoo as the national religion? then that earthquake hit later?

 

[Bluelion]

Blue,

Of course there are secondary causes such as pollution, dams on rivers, destruction of the habitat, etc that affect rain and drought. However, it is still God who sends the rain & snow, or withholds it. I do not serve a deistic God who wound up the universe to let it run and he left us. The Almighty God is actively involved in sending the rain and drought on the just and the unjust.

I'm not suggesting every storm has 'meaning' that I can prophetically understand. However, God can send judgment in the natural elements, but I wouldn't second guess what God is up to with the cyclones, tornadoes, hurricanes, floods and tsunamis he sends.

See, 'A Study of the Providence of God' by Wayne Jackson.

Oz

Brother speaking of this, that huge earthquake that hit haiti they had changed there national religion to vodoo. I would say God was not happy about that. Here is a link about it http://www.britannica.com/topic/Vodou

 

[Patmos]

Just who are you in bondage to prior to salvation?

God, sin, or free will?

God Bless

Till all are one.

In bondage to Predestination!

 

[ClothedInGrace]

In bondage to Predestination!

Predestination doesn't make people sin: that is what you keep misunderstanding. Predestination was God's ordination of the choices that man would make regarding their circumstances, and the circumstances are in control by God. He predestined Adam and Eve to sin in the sense that He knew they, regarding the circumstances that He controlled, were going to sin. It was still their choice. Now, after the fall, men are born after Adam's sinful image, and are born Spiritually dead. Men can do nothing but act in rebellion towards God. Yes, they can choose whether to eat a banana or an apple and whether to help an old lady or to not, but they cannot choose God because all men are born in rebellion towards Him. We believe men have wills and that they make choices, but we believe men's wills have been enslaved to sin. Now, do you understand this?

 

[twin1954]

Yet more nonsense from self claimed Double Predestinarian 'teacher'. Not predestined but, wait for it , preordained choices, right.


Oh my word he is going for foreknowledge now (does he not know this is Arminianiasm?). What next, puppet theory ?


Yup.


By whom was this enslaving done ? God predestined it. Hmm is that not where this loop started. Wait, yes it is!

I will let Clothedingrace answer the first parts of this post since it is directed at him.

But as for the rest of it you are doing nothing but digging yourself into a hole. So lets actually see what the Scriptures have to say about your argument.

(Exo 33:17) And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.


(Exo 33:18) And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.


(Exo 33:19) And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

So we find out that God has wrapped up His glory in sovereign mercy. We would know nothing of the mercy and grace of God if Adam had not fallen. The angels certainly know nothing of it except that they look at the church, saved people.

(Eph 3:8) Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;


(Eph 3:9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


(Eph 3:10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,


(Eph 3:11) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

We are told in this verse that the manifold wisdom of God is known in the principalities and powers in heavenly places. Those principalities and powers are the heavenly beings whom God preserved from rebellion.

(Col 1:12) Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:


(Col 1:13) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


(Col 1:14) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:


(Col 1:15) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


(Col 1:16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


(Col 1:17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


(Col 1:18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


(Col 1:19) For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;


(Col 1:20) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

In this passage of the Scriptures we are told that all things, which would include the Fall, are for the sake of Christ and for Him. As the very image of God everything has been purposed for His glory. And we are told that in all things He has the preeminence. We are told that all things were created for Him.

So your theory that God set in motion a plan but has no control of its outcome is against the plain teaching of the Scriptures.

Now to move on to foreknowledge.

I suspect that you have never actually looked at the word as it is used in the Scriptures. If you had you would know that it is never used, just as predestination isn't, in connection with things it is always in connection with people. God doesn't foreknow nor predestine things He foreknows and predestines people. Lets look at the word in the Scriptures.

(Rom 8:29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Notice that the passage doesn't say what He did foreknow but whom He did foreknow. This passage alone shoots down the Arminian idea of God foreseeing who would believe.

(Act 2:23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

(1Pe 1:1) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,


(1Pe 1:2) Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Notice again that it is people who are foreknown.

The word foreknow and foreknowledge is not seeing before but an intimate relationship with. It is used the same way that we see when we read that Adam knew his wife Eve. It is a union and an intimacy that bonds together. That is how God foreknows His people.

So you see that if you are going to use words such as predestine and foreknow you ought to at least use them as they are used in the Scriptures. If and when you do your whole outlook, not to mention your theology, will be changed.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

You know what Patmos, maybe you are right; maybe God didn't plan human history; maybe He didn't plan to save sinners for His glory; maybe we are just living in a world of chaos, where evil actions have no purpose, and God just sits there begging for it to stop; maybe our wills really are free; maybe a man who doesn't know God can one day wake up and follow Christ without God's help; maybe God is just seeing what happens; maybe you are right.

 

[twin1954]

You know what Patmos, maybe you are right; maybe God didn't plan human history; maybe He didn't plan to save sinners for His glory; maybe we are just living in a world of chaos, where evil actions have no purpose, and God just sits there begging for it to stop; maybe our wills really are free; maybe a man who doesn't know God can one day wake up and follow Christ without God's help; maybe God is just seeing what happens; maybe you are right.

I sure hope that he isn't. I would have no reason to be at peace or to rest in the absolute sovereignty of God if that were true.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

staff edit

Let's be friends, Patmos.

 

[Patmos]

I will let Clothedingrace answer the first parts of this post since it is directed at him.

But as for the rest of it you are doing nothing but digging yourself into a hole. So lets actually see what the Scriptures have to say about your argument.
....

Twin, a long and detailed response, with scripture. So long I am going to cherry pick, but not , I hope you will see, to prove anything to my 'position'. I am in blue.

We would know nothing of the mercy and grace of God if Adam had not fallen.
WOW yes. I cannot help agreeing with this. However one describes it in the Calv or Arm umbrella - it is irrelevant. If the fall had not happened would know a whole lot less about God. Mercy , Grace , everything.

So your theory that God set in motion a plan but has no control of its outcome is against the plain teaching of the Scriptures.
Whooa there. I do NOT have a theory and never proposed one. I have been lost on this for a long time and come to the conclusion it is unfathomable for human logic. I am against the 'plan' notion myself.

Now to move on to foreknowledge.
I suspect that you have never actually looked at the word as it is used in the Scriptures. If you had you would know that it is never used, just as predestination isn't, in connection with things it is always in connection with people. God doesn't foreknow nor predestine things He foreknows and predestines people.
I have actually, though I believe your are way ahead of me ( and a lot of others) I have probably done a disservice by cutting short your scriptures. I also think you have hit on a major cause of disharmony between different Christian interpretations. Any chance of posting a weblink or book on this ?

Notice that the passage doesn't say what He did foreknow but whom He did foreknow. This passage alone shoots down the Arminian idea of God foreseeing who would believe.
I am going to be disagreeable here. Arminians, like Calvinism , is a big umbrella framework. I, for one,do not go with the foresight faith view and I know many Arminians who do not either.

Thanks again for a detailed response.

 

[Patmos]

Where has he misquoted anyone? Where has he made false claims. It is on you to prove your accusations.

He pretended to be a Double predestinarian SupraLapsarian Calvinist in the Soteriology and other forums.

When questioned ( positively, not looking for fault) he showed himself to be false. So no, not friends.

I came here from an Arminian website. I saw a poster 'Tulipbee' make outrageous and false claims of what I and others believe. Hence I felt compelled to respond ( yeah, I get the irony).

If I want to know about Calvinism I go to a respectable and honest source - Canons of Dort are good. I don't go to a hate site to get a load of 'they believe' straw man stuff. Stuffy me thinks it is incumbent for genuine Christians to do the same.

 

[Patmos]

You know what Patmos, maybe you are right; maybe God didn't plan human history; maybe He didn't plan to save sinners for His glory; maybe we are just living in a world of chaos, where evil actions have no purpose, and God just sits there begging for it to stop; maybe our wills really are free; maybe a man who doesn't know God can one day wake up and follow Christ without God's help; maybe God is just seeing what happens; maybe you are right.

Sarcasm does not work either. Big mistake.

 

[twin1954]

Twin, a long and detailed response, with scripture. So long I am going to cherry pick, but not , I hope you will see, to prove anything to my 'position'. I am in blue.

We would know nothing of the mercy and grace of God if Adam had not fallen.
WOW yes. I cannot help agreeing with this. However one describes it in the Calv or Arm umbrella - it is irrelevant. If the fall had not happened would know a whole lot less about God. Mercy , Grace , everything.

So your theory that God set in motion a plan but has no control of its outcome is against the plain teaching of the Scriptures.
Whooa there. I do NOT have a theory and never proposed one. I have been lost on this for a long time and come to the conclusion it is unfathomable for human logic. I am against the 'plan' notion myself.

Now to move on to foreknowledge.
I suspect that you have never actually looked at the word as it is used in the Scriptures. If you had you would know that it is never used, just as predestination isn't, in connection with things it is always in connection with people. God doesn't foreknow nor predestine things He foreknows and predestines people.
I have actually, though I believe your are way ahead of me ( and a lot of others) I have probably done a disservice by cutting short your scriptures. I also think you have hit on a major cause of disharmony between different Christian interpretations. Any chance of posting a weblink or book on this ?

Notice that the passage doesn't say what He did foreknow but whom He did foreknow. This passage alone shoots down the Arminian idea of God foreseeing who would believe.
I am going to be disagreeable here. Arminians, like Calvinism , is a big umbrella framework. I, for one,do not go with the foresight faith view and I know many Arminians who do not either.

Thanks again for a detailed response.

I thank you for the way that you have posted here. I admire and respect you. You have actually made my day in the way you have thoughtfully given my words even a reading. I am your servant in Christ, twin.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

He pretended to be a Double predestinarian SupraLapsarian Calvinist in the Soteriology and other forums.

When questioned ( positively, not looking for fault) he showed himself to be false. So no, not friends.

I came here from an Arminian website. I saw a poster 'Tulipbee' make outrageous and false claims of what I and others believe. Hence I felt compelled to respond ( yeah, I get the irony).

If I want to know about Calvinism I go to a respectable and honest source - Canons of Dort are good. I don't go to a hate site to get a load of 'they believe' straw man stuff. Stuffy me thinks it is incumbent for genuine Christians to do the same.

I really don't see how I can 'pretend' to believe in double predestination and supralapsarianism. I do believe those things. I believe God predestines all people for His glory, whether to judgement or salvation: That's double predestination. I also believe God predestined to save His elect people before the fall, not after: That's supralapsarianism.

If my definitions are wrong, then please explain them to me. There is no need to call me a liar.

 

[Patmos]

I thank you for the way that you have posted here. I admire and respect you. You have actually made my day in the way you have thoughtfully given my words even a reading. I am your servant in Christ, twin.

No way am I your servant.

And I respect you to.

Cheers

Ill look out for you in the Glory

 

[Patmos]

Ok . I apologise for being rude as well. Which I was.

 

[twin1954]

I really don't see how I can 'pretend' to believe in double predestination and supralapsarianism. I do believe those things. I believe God predestines all people for His glory, whether to judgement or salvation: That's double predestination. I also believe God predestined to save His elect people before the fall, not after: That's supralapsarianism.

If my definitions are wrong, then please explain them to me. There is no need to call me a liar.

I too am a supralapsarian though I do not believe it was needful for God to predestine folks to everlasting destruction for that is their default position. He just passed them by in His electing love. There is no need for double predestination because the destiny of the reprobate is already settled according to justice.

The wonder to me is that God chose, in electing love and sovereign mercy, to save any of us who are rebels by nature and God haters by choice. The natural man is enmity, as opposed to at enmity, with God. It is the very nature of our being and the essence of our sin. We oppose the truth of God with everything that is in us. That it why the truth of the Gospel of the free and sovereign grace of God in Christ Jesus alone is offensive to the natural man. He will not bow to a sovereign Lord nor will He acknowledge His right to rule.