Arminian Vs. Calvinist

[chestertonrules]

Dude you don't even know your own view. Molinistview God controls circumstances which manipualtes a persons will. So if I put person A in condition B that causes a certained desired condition. Either way God is responsible based on your logic.

Molinism does not deny man's free will.

If one freely accepts the grace offered and cooperates with it, a salutary action is produced; this co-operation automatically makes a sufficient grace an efficacious one. If the free will refuses its co-operation, the grace remains sufficient only.

 

[MamaZ]

Grace is seen in everyday life to all people.. The sun shining upon us is from the grace of God. The rain that the plants need to grow is from the grace of God. Us breathing another breathe is from the grace of God. It is through grace that we are saved. But one is not saved if one does not have the Spirit of Christ for they are none of His.. The Spirit of God lives inside of His People making His people His temple. Not all men have the Spirit of God living within them therefore are not His temple.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Molinism does not deny man's free will.

If one freely accepts the grace offered and cooperates with it, a salutary action is produced; this co-operation automatically makes a sufficient grace an efficacious one. If the free will refuses its co-operation, the grace remains sufficient only.

Again its the same problem. God controls ones free will to do whatever he wants. You can't get out of the own mess you made.

Your own premise is that if God is the primary cause of someones actions therefore God is responsible. The only difference between this and calvinism is that you threw "free will" into the picture. Accept the logic of it already.

 

[chestertonrules]

Again its the same problem. God controls ones free will to do whatever he wants. You can't get out of the own mess you made.

Your own premise is that if God is the primary cause of someones actions therefore God is responsible. The only difference between this and calvinism is that you threw "free will" into the picture. Accept the logic of it already.

You don't understand Molinism.

Try this:

Most of the Molinists, and also St. Francis de Sales (+1622), teach a conditioned Predestination (ad gloriam tantum), that is, postand propter praevisa merita. According to them, God by His scientia media [middle knowledge], sees beforehand how men would freely react to various orders of grace. In the light of this knowledge He chooses, according to His free pleasure a fixed and definite order of grace. Now by His scientia visionis, He knows infallibly in advance what use the individual man will make of the grace bestowed on him. He elects for eternal bliss those who by virtue of their foreseen merits perseveringly cooperate with grace, while He determines for eternal punishment of hell, those who, on account of their foreseen demerits, deny their cooperation. The ordo intentionis and the ordo executionis coincide (grace-glory; grace-glory).

(Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Rockford, IL: TAN Books, 1974; originally 1952, 242-245)

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2008/03/catholic-predestination-molinism-and.html
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[Hentenza]

Loving God and others. Love requires sacrifice and effort.

Can we love God and others if we are not indwelled by the paraclete?

Of faith will die if we live in sin. We must act on our faith. Our faith does not guarantee our cooperation with God's grace, even the demons believe.

If we live in sin then we did not truly accept God free gift and can never be sanctified.

BTW- The demons can believe that God exists and acknowledge him but can not become new creations or love God so the context of what the demons can believe is entirely different than the work that God does in us. We can choose to believe in the our Lord and savior and be given the promise of the counselor. Our true faith is all that we need.

 

[DD2008]

You are wrong because you don't take the rest of scripture into account before you decide your interpretation of meaning. I am adding nothing at all. Universalism is not biblical.


Scriptures about hell:

Why were they cursed? Lack of faith? Lack of grace?

Man was cursed because of the fallof Adam.

No, they failed to follow the commands of Jesus:

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

I'm sure many are the reasons God didn't elect someone. How can we know? He's the judge we aren't. We do know that we aren't saved by any merit on our part. All the damned are damned because they are sinners. So, again. It's God's choice to make.

Some are going to hell, but it is not because God chose them to go there with no possibility of salvation.

There is a reprobate part of humanity that God allows to exist even though they are going to Hell.

1 Peter 2:8

[8] and "A stone that will make men stumble,
a rock that will make them fall";
for they stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

The ALL means ALL. All are made alive in Christ, ALL are being drawn to him. ALL are being led to justification and life.

Grace is irresistable to the elect so if one is drawn by saving grace one will be saved. Some are not. Some are reprobate.

BUT, some will not follow God's lead. Some will refuse to believe and follow.

Some will look like believers but will actually not believe. There will be some Church members who do not really know God and are sent into hell when at the judgement it is revealed that they really are enemies of God.

You need a new straw dog argument!

Don't be ridiculous. If what is called calvinism was a straw argument Paul wouldn't have wrote what he did in the New testament. St. Augustine wouldn't have wrote what he did against the Pelagians. Aquinas wouldn't have wrote what he did. and Calvin's work wouldn't have withstood the last 500 years.

The fact is God predestines an Elect. The bible is clear on this. All of the titans of theology in Church history agree on this point.

 

[chestertonrules]

Can we love God and others if we are not indwelled by the paraclete?

No, but with God all things are possible.

If we live in sin then we did not truly accept God free gift and can never be sanctified.

BTW- The demons can believe that God exists and acknowledge him but can not become new creations or love God so the context of what the demons can believe is entirely different than the work that God does in us. We can choose to believe in the our Lord and savior and be given the promise of the counselor. Our true faith is all that we need.

We must choose to cooperate with God's grace or reject it.

Faith does not guarantee cooperation.

 

[chestertonrules]

You are wrong because you don't take the rest of scripture into account before you decide your interpretation of meaning. I am adding nothing at all. Universalism is not biblical.


Scriptures about hell:

Man was cursed because of the fallof Adam.

The passage in question has nothing to do with adam, as you know. It is the judgment of the world, and those who didn't follow the commands of Jesus are being sent to Hell.

I'm sure many are the reasons God didn't elect someone. How can we know? He's the judge we aren't. We do know that we aren't saved by any merit on our part. All the damned are damned because they are sinners. So, again. It's God's choice to make.

He tells us quite clearly in scripture. You have no excuse for ignoring his words. ONLY those who obey the will of the father will go to heaven.

Grace is irresistable to the elect so if one is drawn by saving grace one will be saved. Some are not. Some are reprobate.

More robot theology. Not biblical. God wants ALL men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. If it were soley up to him, we would all be saved. He gave us freedom, however.

Some will look like believers but will actually not believe. There will be some Church members who do not really know God and are sent into hell when at the judgement it is revealed that they really are enemies of God.

Those that do not follow his will.

Don't be ridiculous. If what is called calvinism was a straw argument Paul wouldn't have wrote what he did in the New testament. St. Augustine wouldn't have wrote what he did against the Pelagians. Aquinas wouldn't have wrote what he did. and Calvin's work wouldn't have withstood the last 500 years.

Your argument is a straw argument because you refuse to accept scripture as written.

The fact is God predestines an Elect. The bible is clear on this. All of the titans of theology in Church history agree on this point.

Why are they predestined?

This is the central question that Calvinism gets wrong.

 

[DD2008]

We must choose to cooperate with God's grace or reject it.

Faith does not guarantee cooperation.

Saving faith is given by irresistible grace to the elect who then will persevere because of the grace of God.

 

[chestertonrules]

Saving faith is given by irresistible grace to the elect who then will persevere because of the grace of God.

You won't score any debate points my merely repeating Calvinist dogma.

If grace is irresistible, then there is no need for perseverence.

 

[Thekla]

1. I never said anything about or to you at all.

2. That statement by Thekla seem to imply some insufficency in Jesus' atoning work, and yet as I commented, I sincerely doubted that was the veiw being expressed. I left room for an explanation. It wasn't offered.





.

#125:

My friend,

Surely you are not suggesting that Christ's atoning work was insuffient or that He was an incompletely, unsuccessful Savior.

my response:
no, I was indicating that this is the logical conclusion of the statement I referenced.

__________________

 

[Rhamiel]

As a Lutheran, I'm NEITHER Arminian (as the RCC is) or Calvinist (as some Protestants are) but as one who observes this debate from the outside, I think your comment, Chester, is not only unfortunate but a mischaracterization. No Calvinist remotely implied what you have imputed to them, and as one who has studied it, such is not a part of Calvinism.


With that, I'll resume my Lutheran "by-stander" position on this one.



.

just a little correction, the Catholic Church is not Arminian, Arminianism is a Protestant Theology is was created by a follower of Calvin

 

[DD2008]

Why are they predestined?

This is the central question that Calvinism gets wrong.

Because that's what God chose to do.

Romans 8:28-33

[28] We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.
[29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.
[30] And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.
[31] What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who is against us?
[32] He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him?
[33] Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies;

 

[MamaZ]

We must choose to cooperate with God's grace or reject it.

Faith does not guarantee cooperation.

it is God who causes us to walk in His statutes. He is the one who gives a new heart. Man cannot change who they are. Only the Power of God can change a mans heart.

 

[MamaZ]

It is because of Christ in us that we can even love as we are commanded to love. For we do not love from within ourselves we love with the love of God. This love has been shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Not our own free will.

 

[DD2008]

You won't score any debate points my merely repeating Calvinist dogma.

If grace is irresistible, then there is no need for perseverence.

I'm a Calvinist. The thread is about Calvinism.

At least I'm not trying to advocate Molinism on an Arminian vs Calvinist thread.

Perseverence is what it is called. We are people who speak in an anthromorphic language.

 

[MamaZ]

We who believe in predestination do press forward to the high calling of Christ Jesus..

 

[jckstraw72]

God never created men for the express purpose of eternal torture, you can say it as much as you want, but that is not what calvinism believes.

i know a good bit of Calvinists who believe that though

 

[jckstraw72]

We who believe in predestination do press forward to the high calling of Christ Jesus..

saying you press forward implies you having a say in the matter. what you mean is God monergistically forces you nearer to Him.

 

[chestertonrules]

I'm a Calvinist. The thread is about Calvinism.

At least I'm not trying to advocate Molinism on an Arminian vs Calvinist thread.

Perseverence is what it is called. We are people who speak in an anthromorphic language.

We are instructed to persevere and endure in scirpture.

Why bother exhorting these actions if we have no choice but to persevere?