Arminian Vs. Calvinist

[MamaZ]

saying you press forward implies you having a say in the matter. what you mean is God monergistically forces you nearer to Him.

LOL Forces us nearer to Him? what do you mean by this? How much nearer to God can we get than Him through His Spirit living with in us and us being His temple. Would us that are His want to be anywhere but in His presence?
Do you not love the very presence of God?

 

[MamaZ]

We are instructed to persevere and endure in scirpture.

Why bother exhorting these actions if we have no choice but to persevere?

Only those whom Christ lives in will be able to persevere.. For it is He who is made strong in our weakness. We press forward to His high Calling.

 

[chestertonrules]

Only those whom Christ lives in will be able to persevere.. For it is He who is made strong in our weakness. We press forward to His high Calling.

That's an evasion, not an answer.

If we have no choice but to endure, then we really don't need to be told to endure, do we?

 

[MamaZ]

That's an evasion, not an answer.

If we have no choice but to endure, then we really don't need to be told to endure, do we?

what are we to endure?

 

[Chesterton]

Why bother exhorting these actions if we have no choice but to persevere?

You could come up with a list of "why bothers" as long as your arm. Why bother with creation, why choosing the Jews, why make a covenant, why any revelation at all, why human history, why Christ's teachings and work on the cross, etc. The Calvinist answer usually comes back "for God's glory". But I say there is no glory to be had or increased by puppet-making.

 

[MamaZ]

That's an evasion, not an answer.

If we have no choice but to endure, then we really don't need to be told to endure, do we?

Even the nation of Isreal could not endure. No matter how many times they were brought to repentance. What makes one think that they are any better than this? Why could they not endure?

 

[MamaZ]

You could come up with a list of "why bothers" as long as your arm. Why bother with creation, why choosing the Jews, why make a covenant, why any revelation at all, why human history, why Christ's teachings and work on the cross, etc. The Calvinist answer usually comes back "for God's glory". But I say there is no glory to be had or increased by puppet-making.

Well puppet making is just that.. LOL. A person is a slave to something as scripture teaches us. Either sin or righteousness.. those whom are born again are bond servants to the Lord..

 

[jckstraw72]

LOL Forces us nearer to Him? what do you mean by this? How much nearer to God can we get than Him through His Spirit living with in us and us being His temple. Would us that are His want to be anywhere but in His presence?
Do you not love the very presence of God?

if its not my choice, then no, its not Love. The members of the Trinity have eternally loved each other freely. If I cannot love freely then I'm not in the image of God and I cannot love at all.

 

[chestertonrules]

Even the nation of Isreal could not endure. No matter how many times they were brought to repentance. What makes one think that they are any better than this? Why could they not endure?

Did Moses endure?

How about Aaron?

 

[MamaZ]

if its not my choice, then no, its not Love. The members of the Trinity have eternally loved each other freely. If I cannot love freely then I'm not in the image of God and I cannot love at all.

Scripture teaches us that we love by the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. This is why scripture teaches us that those who do not love do not know God.. How can a sinful man love freely? Can you love God uncondtionally? Can you love anyone unconditionally and give your life for their sin? Freely?

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Thank-you

So, like the EO, Calvinism understands that the image is distorted or covered - is that correct ?

Yes, both have that same basic sense.

However, EO (from what I understand) places a much heavier emphasis on the image of God within each person. Its a more "positive" view - what is retained - while the Calvinist view tends to focus on the "negative" aspects - what was distorted in the fall.

I don't understand the "utter depravity" idea, though.
To me, this suggests that the image is rendered inactive, or that we cannot in any way be "attracted" to God.

That is an interesting way to connect the issues.

To explain depravity, the terms "total depravity" and "utter depravity" are akin to Paul's statement that sinners are "spiritually dead." It implies both an inability and a lack of desire to seek God.

"Total" and "utter" refer to the entire person - body, soul, mind, emotions, will, etc. The terms should not be taken to mean that people are as bad as they can be, or that they can only do evil all the time. Sometimes even Calvinists misunderstand this.

Scripture does refer to conscience (Rom 2:15) where people have a degree of choosing between right and wrong. Conscience is not possible where depravity is "complete." Also we cannot deny that there are unbelievers who have done good things that benefit others (i.e. Cyrus in Scripture). And while a good conscience or good deeds are beneficial to those on the earth, these do not merit or earn salvation for individuals in the sight of God. Calvinists would say they need to "change their mind" regarding their view of Jesus Christ - that is, accepting Him as their Savior.

Connected with "attracted" to God is a process that Calvinists refer to as the calling. The calling is the preconversion work of God in a person's life that draws them to Christ. Then at the moment of conversion, their eyes are opened, they are free to choose to believe in Christ, and God justifies them.


LDG

 

[MamaZ]

Did Moses endure?

How about Aaron?

Did Moses endure? If I remember correctly Moses did not get to go into the promise land. What specifically are we to endure?

 

[jckstraw72]

i may not be able to love unconditionally, but i certainly have a say in whether or not i love someone or God. did the father of the prodigal son go and grab him from the pig sty and make him return home? or did the prodigal son "come to himself?"

 

[ReformedChapin]

We are instructed to persevere and endure in scirpture.

Why bother exhorting these actions if we have no choice but to persevere?

Two perspectives:

Metaphysical God keeps us

Physical we have to endure


the meta works within the physical, he tells us so that his will is accomplished concurrently

 

[jckstraw72]

Then at the moment of conversion, their eyes are opened, they are free to choose to believe in Christ, and God justifies them.

ive never heard a Calvinist put it that way before ... my Calvinist roommate from the summer definitely said there is absolutely no choice in the matter.

 

[MamaZ]

i may not be able to love unconditionally, but i certainly have a say in whether or not i love someone or God. did the father of the prodigal son go and grab him from the pig sty and make him return home? or did the prodigal son "come to himself?"

Well in that story you will note that the prodigal son was the son of the Father. He was not a stranger unto this man but was his son. Not all have God as thier Father. Jesus teaches us that..
So is this the love that the Father commands? For we are to be as Christ and lay our lives down for even those who do not love us..

 

[jckstraw72]

Well in that story you will note that the prodigal son was the son of the Father. He was not a stranger unto this man but was his son. Not all have God as thier Father. Jesus teaches us that..

perhaps that demonstrates that man is NOT a total stranger to God as Calvinism would teach.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Predestination is biblical but in the sense that God has chosen certain individuals to be saved.

Now, If God is choosing who is saved then how does that compare with biblical passages that show that we can be saved if we chose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the choice and that all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved like in John 3:16 and Romans 10:9-10 among others. The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who is seeking Him. The only possible answer is that God both predestines and allows those that believe in Christ to be saved. God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true.

I didn't quote all of it, but you have a very well written post. It highlights the Biblical evidence for both predestination and that individuals must place their faith in Jesus Christ.

The continental divide concerning predestination between Arminians and Calvinists is this:

. Arminians hold that God chose a person to be saved on the basis of God's love and the person's (future) choice.

. Calvinists hold that God chose a person to be saved on the basis of God's love.


LDG

 

[jckstraw72]

what does God have for those He didnt choose (if its not love)?

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

ive never heard a Calvinist put it that way before ... my Calvinist roommate from the summer definitely said there is absolutely no choice in the matter.

God is the First Cause of all things. However God also uses second causes: people are a second cause, the will is a second cause, etc.

But to show how its expressed in Reformed Calvinist circles, here are a couple of statements from The Westminster Confession:

"...yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. " (III:1)

"God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil." (IX:1).


LDG