Arminian Vs. Calvinist

[ReformedChapin]

Ok, here is the way I read it.

Romans 8:28-39
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (NKJV, Highlight mine)


The words translated “predestined” in the above verses are from the Greek word “proorizo,” which carries the meaning of “determine beforehand,” “ordain,” “to decide upon ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain folks would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. There are numerous scripture verses that refer to believers in Christ being chosen like Matthew 24:22 and 31, Titus 1:1, and 1 Peter 1:1-2 among others. Predestination is biblical but in the sense that God has chosen certain individuals to be saved.

Now, If God is choosing who is saved then how does that compare with biblical passages that show that we can be saved if we chose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the choice and that all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved like in John 3:16 and Romans 10:9-10 among others. The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who is seeking Him. The only possible answer is that God both predestines and allows those that believe in Christ to be saved. God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true.

Romans 9?

Btw john 3:16 and similar verses speak about God loving humanity not every single person.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Whose fault was the fall?

You said it was not a surprise to God. Are you now saying that God did not want Adam and Eve to sin?

Did God create Satan?

Here lets have some lessons in logic. Because God created a being and the being is controlled by God that doesn't imply that God is responsible for the beings actions.

God would be equally responsible in your understanding of God for not stopping the fall.

 

[chestertonrules]

Right after you are in Christ and have received grace not before.

That's not what the bible says, that's what you twist it to say.

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  Rom 11:32

 

[DD2008]

I'm saying that if the God of Calvinism is true, then it is absolutely his fault that any man goes to Hell.

I don't believe that such a God exists, however.

So you don't believe the bible? There is only one God and he revealed himself to us through the scriptures.

 

[MamaZ]

Please elaborate.



Of course I can. I can't post the whole bible!



God saves those who, through his grace, do his will. God already knows who these people are, but he didn't force them to follow his will, he enabled them to.

So if God does not enable one to follow His will ?

 

[chestertonrules]

Here lets have some lessons in logic. Because God created a being and the being is controlled by God that doesn't imply that God is responsible for the beings actions.

God would be equally responsible in your understanding of God for not stopping the fall.

According to Calvinist theology, man is incapable of pleasing or seeking God.



I am not trying to communicate my understanding of the fall, but to investigate the Calvinist view.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I'm saying that if the God of Calvinism is true, then it is absolutely his fault that any man goes to Hell.

I don't believe that such a God exists, however.

This is your own deduction based on your own faulty logic. Your molinist God is equally responsible. You are just throwing in an extra variable that God controlled anyway to try to rationalize your position.

 

[ReformedChapin]

According to Calvinist theology, man is incapable of pleasing or seeking God.



I am not trying to communicate my understanding of the fall, but to investigate the Calvinist view.

Man after the fall is incapable of pleasing God. Yes, because when adam sinned we all become totally depraved.

 

[chestertonrules]

So if God does not enable one to follow His will ?

But he does!

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
  John 12:31-32

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  Rom 11:32

• Ask, Seek, Knock
  
  7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

 

[chestertonrules]

Man after the fall is incapable of pleasing God. Yes, because when adam sinned we all become totally depraved.

But Jesus brought us back to life through his atonement and made it possible for us to pursue God's will.

 

[MamaZ]

are not all living beings created through procreation of man and woman other than Christ who born not of the seed of Man but of God?

 

[DD2008]

That's not what the bible says, that's what you twist it to say.

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  Rom 11:32

You are wrong because you don't take the rest of scripture into account before you decide your interpretation of meaning. I am adding nothing at all. Universalism is not biblical.


Scriptures about hell:


Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...
Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.
Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.
Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Matthew 22:13, ...Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Psalm 9:17, The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Isaiah 14:99-11, 15 (referring to Lucifer), Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee...all they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee...thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Daniel 12:2, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and EVERLASTING contempt.


Obviously some are going to hell as we clearly see in the scriptures. So if you believe that then the all that is being spoken of in the scriptures you provided is all of the elect.

 

[chestertonrules]

This is your own deduction based on your own faulty logic. Your molinist God is equally responsible. You are just throwing in an extra variable that God controlled anyway to try to rationalize your position.

Wrong.

God wants us to respond to his grace.

The Molinist does not believe that God chooses to withhold his grace from some.

The Molinist acknowledges that if we are free, then some will not respond to God's grace.

 

[ReformedChapin]

But he does!

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
  John 12:31-32

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  Rom 11:32

• Ask, Seek, Knock
  
  7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Those are the regenerated believers.

10:11 “I am the good 25 shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life 26 for the sheep. 10:12 The hired hand, 27 who is not a shepherd and does not own sheep, sees the wolf coming and abandons 28 the sheep and runs away. 29 So the wolf attacks 30 the sheep and scatters them. 10:13 Because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep, 31 he runs away. 32
10:14 “I am the good shepherd. I 33 know my own 34 and my own know me – 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father – and I lay down my life 35 for 36 the sheep. 10:16 I have 37 other sheep that do not come from 38 this sheepfold.39 I must bring them too, and they will listen to my voice, 40 so that 41 there will be one flock and 42 one shepherd. 10:17 This is why the Father loves me 43 – because I lay down my life, 44 so that I may take it back again. 10:18 No one takes it away from me, but I lay it down 45 of my own free will.46 I have the authority 47 to lay it down, and I have the authority 48 to take it back again. This commandment 49 I received from my Father.”

 

[MamaZ]

But Jesus brought us back to life through his atonement and made it possible for us to pursue God's will.

Only those who have been born again can even enter the kingdom of God. So how do you logically stand on one having to be born again not of the will of man but by the Spirit of God? I do not see anywere it is stated in scripture that all men are born again.

 

[DD2008]

Wrong.

God wants us to respond to his grace.

The Molinist does not believe that God chooses to withhold his grace from some.

The Molinist acknowledges that if we are free, then some will not respond to God's grace.

Molinism is irrelevant to this thread that is about Arminianism vs Calvinism isn't it?

The Molinist is the minority poition in Catholic Church anyway. Aquinas was a far superior theologian that Luis de Molinas.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Wrong.

God wants us to respond to his grace.

The Molinist does not believe that God chooses to withhold his grace from some.

The Molinist acknowledges that if we are free, then some will not respond to God's grace.

Dude you don't even know your own view. Molinist view God controls circumstances which manipualtes a persons will. So if I put person A in condition B that causes a certained desired condition. Either way God is responsible based on your logic.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Molinism is irrelevant to this thread that is about Arminianism vs Calvinism isn't it?

The Molinist is the minority poition in Catholic Church anyway. Aquinas was a far superior theologian that Luis de Molinas.

Molinists are sophisticared arminians...kind of. But still end up in the same mess they try to build themselves out of.

I love Aquines and Augustine though.

 

[chestertonrules]

You are wrong because you don't take the rest of scripture into account before you decide your interpretation of meaning. I am adding nothing at all. Universalism is not biblical.


Scriptures about hell:

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Why were they cursed? Lack of faith? Lack of grace?

No, they failed to follow the commands of Jesus:

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

??

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand

Obviously some are going to hell as we clearly see in the scriptures. So if you believe that then the all that is being spoken of in the scriptures you provided is all of the elect.

Some are going to hell, but it is not because God chose them to go there with no possibility of salvation.



The ALL means ALL. All are made alive in Christ, ALL are being drawn to him. ALL are being led to justification and life.


BUT, some will not follow God's lead. Some will refuse to believe and follow.


You need a new straw dog argument!

 

[DD2008]

You have simply demonstrated that one cannot hold your molinist view if one has a full view of scripture.

You can't just pick and choose verses.

God elects those who wil be saved. There is a process but in the end it all comes back to God elected who will be saved. He knows.

Here is the Ordo Salutis: 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

Many scriptures refer to points during this period.

This is what I posted.

So if God does not enable one to follow His will ?

God does give people the grace to believe in him and follow him.