Arminian Vs. Calvinist

[DD2008]

I'm using the terminology of Genesis; we were created in the image and toward the likeness of God.

It seems the image of God - per what I've read here - can be destroyed by evil.

Are the elect created in the image of God, or (since the image of God can be utterly destroyed by evil per the Calvinist position) are the elect some other sort of creation ?

See: 170

 

[DD2008]

The word elect is not there.

I don't believe in universalism. I believe God has given us sufficient grace to be saved, but we must respond to and cooperate with this grace.


You are merely repeating Calvinist dogma. Your words have NOTHING to do with the verse I posted.

We believe that the bible has to be read as a whole complete revelation. You can't pick and choose scriptures and base whole doctrines on them. The bible clearly describes an elect. It is like you asking me to look just at the corner of a masterpiece painting and describe what the whole thing means to me.

The Elect:

Matt.24

1. [22] And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
2. [24] For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
3. [31] and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark.13

1. [20] And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
2. [22] False Christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
3. [27] And then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Luke.18

1. [7] And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?

Rom.8

1. [33] Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies;

Rom.9

1. [11] though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call,

Rom.11

1. [7] What then? Israel failed to obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
2. [28] As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

1Tim.5

1. [21] In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without favor, doing nothing from partiality.

2Tim.2

1. [10] Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with its eternal glory.

Tit.1

1. [1] Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to further the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth which accords with godliness,

2Pet.1

1. [10] Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall;

2John.1

1. [1] The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth, and not only I but also all who know the truth,
2. [13] The children of your elect sister greet you.

 

[Thekla]

See: 170

John Calvin on the issue:

"Since the image of God had been destroyed in us by the fall, we may judge from its restoration what it originally had been. Paul says that we are transformed into the image of God by the gospel. And, according to him, spiritual regeneration is nothing else than the restoration of the same image. (Colossians 3:10, and Ephesians 4:23.)"

what is to keep the restored image from being destroyed ?

 

[ReformedChapin]

This is begging the question and only serves to try and demonize the other side which neither Thekla nor I have done. What she wrote was in the context of a question and not a definitive statement of the doctrine of her side.

In response to your reply, Orthodoxy does in fact leave things like the issue of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility to the realm of divine mystery. However, when the Reformed side makes it a point to define and systematize the mystery, and uneven logic crops up, it must be pointed out and dealt with.

I haven't found any logical incoherences in reformed theology. Guess that's why I am reformed huh?

I welcome you to bring them up, but I doubt we will agree on our logic.

Again, I do not think for Thekla, and definitely not for me, that we hold that man is able to save himself. This would be the Pelagian heresy. We both affirm also that God is the judge. You have not answered the question: how does the Calvinist reconcile the fact that their system says that evil and sin, things which he did not create, totally destroyed something which God specifically created and bestowed upon man to make him different than animals, plants, and inanimate objects? He did not have to give us his image, but Genesis clearly says he did and God does not do things without a purpose.

The east has always been very interesting for me. Although you are right, the EO's don't adhere to Palegianism they are certainly SEMI-Palgeian. Works based system in which an individual must not only come to faith on their own (make their own decision) but must also work in order to be justified and sanctified.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

My issue with only predestined folks are saved is the seeming conflict between Jesus command to spread the good news to every nation and the doctrine that only those predestined will be saved. My question is, if only the ones predestined will be saved then why spread the gospel?

Because God uses people as the instruments through which others will hear the gospel.

God is omniscient, so He knows who will be saved and who will not. People are not omniscient and cannot determine who will be saved or not.

Therefore the gospel is offered to everyone, in the hope that they will turn to Christ and believe.


LDG

 

[chestertonrules]

We

believe that the bible has to be read as a whole complete revelation. You can't pick and choose scriptures and base whole doctrines on them.

I clearly stated that the word ELECT or it's equivalent was not located in the verses into which you tried to insert it. You were attempting to distort the meaning of the scripture as written so you could make it fit into your dogma.

 

[DD2008]

what is to keep the restored image from being destroyed ?

The power of God.

 

[chestertonrules]

Because God uses people as the instruments through which others will hear the gospel.

God is omniscient, so He knows who will be saved and who will not. People are not omniscient and cannot determine who will be saved or not.

Therefore the gospel is offered to everyone, in the hope that they will turn to Christ and believe.


LDG

So people are robots, but we just don't know it?

 

[ReformedChapin]

The word elect is not there.

I don't believe in universalism. I believe God has given us sufficient grace to be saved, but we must respond to and cooperate with this grace.


You are merely repeating Calvinist dogma. Your words have NOTHING to do with the verses I posted.

Can we stop with the ad-hemenims please?


I don't see why RCC's and EO's even bother with this debate. Your essential pressupositions are different than ours. You come to the bible with Papist biases not Sola Scriptura.

 

[Thekla]

The power of God.

But if the power of evil can overcome the power of God by destroying the image, then the power of evil can destroy the restored image.

 

[DD2008]

We



I clearly stated that the word ELECT or it's equivalent was not located in the verses into which you tried to insert it. You were attempting to distort the meaning of the scripture as written so you could make it fit into your dogma.

You can't know what an individual verse really means without taking the whole of Divine revelation into consideration. I am not attempting to distort anything. I believe that the interpretation called Calvinism is true.

One must accept the whole of scripture not just a part of it if one wants to know the truth about God.

So your verses can't be understood without the rest of scripture and these verses in particular.

The Elect:

Matt.24

1. [22] And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
2. [24] For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
3. [31] and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark.13

1. [20] And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
2. [22] False Christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
3. [27] And then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Luke.18

1. [7] And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?

Rom.8

1. [33] Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies;

Rom.9

1. [11] though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call,

Rom.11

1. [7] What then? Israel failed to obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
2. [28] As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

1Tim.5

1. [21] In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without favor, doing nothing from partiality.

2Tim.2

1. [10] Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with its eternal glory.

Tit.1

1. [1] Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to further the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth which accords with godliness,

2Pet.1

1. [10] Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall;

2John.1

1. [1] The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth, and not only I but also all who know the truth,
2. [13] The children of your elect sister greet you.

 

[chestertonrules]

Can we stop with the ad-hemenims please?

What are you referring to?

I don't see why RCC's and EO's even bother with this debate. Your essential pressupositions are different than ours. You come to the bible with Papist biases not Sola Scriptura.

You can't defend your dogma with the bible unless you distort the words, as I have demonstrated.

Can you give me an example of Papist bias in our understanding of God's grace and justification?

 

[DD2008]

But if the power of evil can overcome the power of God by destroying the image, then the power of evil can destroy the restored image.

Has time stopped or something? The power of Evil has not won. Christ is victorious and evil is doomed.

God's plan is always going to be made reality.

 

[chestertonrules]

You can't know what an individual verse really means without taking the whole of Divine revelation into consideration. I am not attempting to distort anything. I believe that the interpretation called Calvinism is true.

One must accept the whole of scripture not just a part of it if one wants to know the truth about God.

So your verses can't be understood without the rest of scripture and these verses in particular.

You don't come to an understanding by distorting or adding words to scriptures.

Since the verses I posted contradict Calvinism, you decided to change their meaning.

 

[Thekla]

Has time stopped or something? The power of Evil has not won. Christ is victorious and evil is doomed.

God's plan is always going to be made reality.

Christ is victorious, I agree.
But I'm interested in reading a response to my previous questions.

 

[Hentenza]

Ok, here is the way I read it.

Romans 8:28-39
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (NKJV, Highlight mine)


The words translated “predestined” in the above verses are from the Greek word “proorizo,” which carries the meaning of “determine beforehand,” “ordain,” “to decide upon ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain folks would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. There are numerous scripture verses that refer to believers in Christ being chosen like Matthew 24:22 and 31, Titus 1:1, and 1 Peter 1:1-2 among others. Predestination is biblical but in the sense that God has chosen certain individuals to be saved.

Now, If God is choosing who is saved then how does that compare with biblical passages that show that we can be saved if we chose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the choice and that all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved like in John 3:16 and Romans 10:9-10 among others. The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who is seeking Him. The only possible answer is that God both predestines and allows those that believe in Christ to be saved. God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true.

 

[simonthezealot]

Christ is victorious and evil is doomed.

4for the (A)weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful (B)for the destruction of fortresses.
5We are destroying speculations and every (C)lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the (D)obedience of Christ,

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

A HUGE question occurs to me:

what is the Calvinist definition or understanding of the image of God ?

There is a wide range of various definitions, from physical resemblance to eternal soul or capacity (reasoning, etc).

Here is Calvin on the image of God, from the Institutes (I, 15, 4 - Beveridge):

It cannot be doubted that when Adam lost his first estate he became alienated from God. Wherefore, although we grant that the image of God was not utterly effaced and destroyed in him, it was, however, so corrupted, that any thing which remains is fearful deformity; and, therefore, our deliverance begins with that renovation which we obtain from Christ, who is, therefore, called the second Adam, because he restores us to true and substantial integrity.


LDG

 

[chestertonrules]

Ok, here is the way I read it.

Romans 8:28-39
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (NKJV, Highlight mine)


The words translated “predestined” in the above verses are from the Greek word “proorizo,” which carries the meaning of “determine beforehand,” “ordain,” “to decide upon ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain folks would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. There are numerous scripture verses that refer to believers in Christ being chosen like Matthew 24:22 and 31, Titus 1:1, and 1 Peter 1:1-2 among others. Predestination is biblical doctrine but in the sense that God has chosen certain individuals to be saved.

Now, If God is choosing who is saved then how does that compare with biblical passages that show that we can be saved if we chose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the choice and that all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved like in John 3:16 and Romans 10:9-10 among others. The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who is seeking Him. The only possible answer is that God both predestines and allows those that believe in Christ to be saved. God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true.

God also predestines based on his foreknowledge. He knows who will choose him when given the opportunity.

In Catholicism, the two poles on the free will/grace spectrum are Thomism and Molinism. Molinism developed later and I think it is much more comprehensive and scripturally sound.

Molinism teaches that there is no built-in difference, but only an external accidental difference between sufficient and efficacious grace. God gives every person sufficient grace for all supernatural actions he or she is to perform. If one freely accepts the grace offered and cooperates with it, a salutary action is produced; this co-operation automatically makes a sufficient grace an efficacious one. If the free will refuses its co-operation, the grace remains sufficient only. God from all eternity foresees the free consent of the human will by his infallible foreknowledge of what a person would do with whatever grace he or she received. Why god chooses to give the person the precise grace he does, foreseeing whether that person will accept or reject it, is left as a mystery in God.

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=34931

 

[Thekla]

There is a wide range of various definitions, from physical resemblance to eternal soul or capacity (reasoning, etc).

Here is Calvin on the image of God, from the Institutes (I, 15, 4 - Beveridge):

It cannot be doubted that when Adam lost his first estate he became alienated from God. Wherefore, although we grant that the image of God was not utterly effaced and destroyed in him, it was, however, so corrupted, that any thing which remains is fearful deformity; and, therefore, our deliverance begins with that renovation which we obtain from Christ, who is, therefore, called the second Adam, because he restores us to true and substantial integrity.


LDG

Thank-you

So, like the EO, Calvinism understands that the image is distorted or covered - is that correct ?

I don't understand the "utter depravity" idea, though.
To me, this suggests that the image is rendered inactive, or that we cannot in any way be "attracted" to God.