Arminian Vs. Calvinist

[MamaZ]

Would you love God if you knew he planned for some of your children to be tortured for eternity?

Why would I not love Him? For I love Him because He first loved me. I love Him more than my own children. I am not one to wonder who is the elect and who isn't.. My life is to be lived to glorify my Father in Heaven.

 

[Chesterton]

This I Do remember and it is very true.. But notice that one must hear His voice. Let those with ears hear what the Spirit says to the church..

What I just as significantly notice is the word "if", and also that a person must act by "opening the door".

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

He doesn't pick some for eternal damnation. He picks some for eternal life. Men are not deserving of eternal life. It is a gift

.... actually, that's the Lutheran position, not the Calvinist one.




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[Thekla]

John 7:17 "If anyone be willing to do His will, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from God or whether I speak from Myself."

James 4:7 "Be subject therefor to God. Stand against the devil and he will flee from you."

Both of these passages indicate the human's person's agency (will) as needful.

 

[chestertonrules]

Why would I not love Him? For I love Him because He first loved me. I love Him more than my own children. I am not one to wonder who is the elect and who isn't.. My life is to be lived to glorify my Father in Heaven.

I wouldn't love such a God.

I'm thankful that he doesn't exist.

 

[DD2008]

Paul has hope, but not presumption

:

Every works related verse in the NT implies that works is a product of faith and if you don't bear good fruit through works it is indicitive that you don't have faith. So there are constant reminders to check yourself.

The Elect may sin but will not permantently fall away as they are predestined and elected by God.

You seem to think that the bible teaches that men are somehow deserving of a "fair shake". God is the author of life. He is the potter we are the clay. We are sinners and he saves who he will by His mercy. If he decided to save absolutely nobody that would be a good choice because it would be just. He saves simply because he wants to.

Note these passages about the soverignty of God:

Romans 9:13-24

[13] As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
[15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.
[17] For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth."
[18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.
[19] You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
[20] But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?"
[21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?
[22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,
[23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,
[24] even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Notice here that some men are destined to disobey:

1 Peter 2:8

[8] and "A stone that will make men stumble,
a rock that will make them fall";
for they stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

However, the Christian Elect is a chosen people a royal priesthood, God's own people:

1 Peter 2:9-10

[9] But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
[10] Once you were no people but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy.

 

[simonthezealot]

Haven't all men sinned and come short of the glory of God?

Didn't God create all men?


Why does God pick some for eternal torture, even though they are just like everyone chosen for paradise?

It that what you call just and merciful?

Sin must be shown to be utterly sinful and horrible. The cross shows His righteousness and grace and that His will is carried out.
God is not simple and that He has a divine plan that we must truly seek to fathom if we are to rightly understand His word.
Having predestinated[SIZE=+0] us[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] unto[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] the adoption of children[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] by[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] Jesus[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] Christ[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] to[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] himself[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], according[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] to the good pleasure[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] of his[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] will[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], [/SIZE]
He engineered history to bring not only the cross as the means of redemption, but also the culmination of all things for the declaration of His own glory, righteousness,holiness, and character
What character and justice would there be if those opposed to making Him LORD recieved what those whose hearts have been prepared and have made Him LORD received?

 

[Tzaousios]

John 7:17 "If anyone be willing to do His will, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from God or whether I speak from Myself."

James 4:7 "Be subject therefor to God. Stand against the devil and he will flee from you."

Both of these passages indicate the human's person's agency (will) as needful.

The verses imply that the person's will is important. However, the Calvinists will say that only the elect can know his teaching in the first case and fulfill the command to be subject to God in the second.

 

[Chesterton]

I wouldn't love such a God.

I'm thankful that he doesn't exist.

Agreed. I think such a God is neither just, nor loving, nor glorious.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

.... this thread belongs in the Soteriology forum....



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[simonthezealot]

Would you love God if you knew he planned for some of your children to be tortured for eternity?

Abraham showed us what faith in Him is by offering his son up, our Father in heaven offered His son up... Why shouldn't we as well have the faith in Him to know that all things come together for the good of HIM?
You can't love the LORD your God with all your heart mind and soul if you are not willing to put God first before your child, it is in a sense idolatry!

 

[chestertonrules]

Sin must be shown to be utterly sinful and horrible. The cross shows His righteousness and grace and that His will is carried out.

Then why save anyone?

God is not simple and that He has a divine plan that we must truly seek to fathom if we are to rightly understand His word.

What does understanding his word have to do with being one of the elect?

Having predestinated[SIZE=+0] us[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] unto[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] the adoption of children[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] by[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] Jesus[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] Christ[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] to[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] himself[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], according[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] to the good pleasure[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] of his[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] will[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], [/SIZE]
He engineered history to bring not only the cross as the means of redemption, but also the culmination of all things for the declaration of His own glory, righteousness,holiness, and character
What character and justice would there be if those opposed to making Him LORD recieved what those whose hearts have been prepared and have made Him LORD received?

Sounds like salvation through faith AND works to me, not Calvinism.


If God chooses who goes to hell without regard for human thoughts and actions, then he is not merciful or just.

 

[chestertonrules]

Abraham showed us what faith in Him is by offering his son up, our Father in heaven offered His son up... Why shouldn't we as well have the faith in Him to know that all things come together for the good of HIM?
You can't love the LORD your God with all your heart mind and soul if you are willing to put your child before God, it is in a sense idolatry!

You didn't answer the question.

Would you love a God who planned to torture your children for eternity?

 

[simonthezealot]

.... this thread belongs in the Soteriology forum....



.

Awe lets let it be...Its the oly thing happening in GT

 

[DD2008]

I wouldn't love such a God.

I'm thankful that he doesn't exist.

Beware. That kind of thinking is what this passage is about. Remember God is the creator, we are the created. His justice is just and good. His mercy is is mercy and it is good.

But to judge God or make Him into what you want Him to be is not in accordance with His will. That is rejection of His revelation of Himself. People believe in and love God through the grace of God. If one finds himself in doubt of God it is profitable to repent and cry to Him for His mercy and grace.

Matthew 7:21-23

[21] "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[22] On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
[23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'

 

[simonthezealot]

You didn't answer the question.

Would you love a God who planned to torture your children for eternity?

YES..It is satan who tortures NOT God.

 

[Thekla]

The verses imply that the person's will is important. However, the Calvinists will say that only the elect can know his teaching in the first case and fulfill the command to be subject to God in the second.

So - and perhaps a Calvinist can respond - do Calvinists believe that humans have a conscience ?

 

[simonthezealot]

[/i]

Then why save anyone?

Well NONE of us deserve it...Nonetheless he saves who he saves.

 

[chestertonrules]

Beware. That kind of thinking is what this passage is about. Remember God is the creator, we are the created. His justice is just and good. His mercy is is mercy and it is good.

I agree.

But to judge God or make Him into what you want Him to be is not in accordance with His will. That is rejection of His revelation of Himself. People believe in and love God through the grace of God. If one finds himself in doubt of God it is profitable to repent and cry to Him for His mercy and grace.

That's exactly what Calvinists do. They create a false sense of security for themselves.


Matthew 7:21-23

[21] "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[22] On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
[23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'

This is clearly not accepted by Calvinist theology. DO THE WILL of the father.


These verses tell us about God:

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32


Are we all imprisoned in disobedience?

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

JUST as means JUST LIKE.... Jesus leads all to justification and life. We must accept his grace and follow or reject him.

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

Did all die in Adam?

 

[MamaZ]

[/i]


[/color]Sounds like salvation through faith AND works to me, not Calvinism.


If God chooses who goes to hell without regard for human thoughts and actions, then he is not merciful or just.

LOL according to whose definition of merciful or just? God chooses those whom He by His mercy saves.. How is this not just? For none deserve salvation. Salvation is not earned. Men cannot earn salvation. It is given as a free gift.