Arminian Vs. Calvinist

[DD2008]

I've been there many times.

They ignore scriptures that contradict their dogma or they scramble like mad for a reason that the bible doesn't actually mean what it says.

• Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
  John 12:31-32

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• herefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  Rom 11:32

• My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
  1 John 2:1-2

• The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
  John 1:29

1. Do you believe ther is a hell?
2. Do you believe that some humans will spend eternity there?

 

[chestertonrules]

1. Do you believe ther is a hell?
2. Do you believe that some humans will spend eternity there?

Yes and Yes.


I don't believe that God sends them there with no chance of salvation.

Do you believe these verses?

• Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
  John 12:31-32

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• herefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  Rom 11:32

• My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
  1 John 2:1-2

• The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
  John 1:29

 

[itisdeliciouscake]

If God only showed his love and mercyto only ONE person, he would still be a loving and merciful God. Calvinism doesn't deny the mercy of God.

 

[chestertonrules]

If God only showed his love and mercyto only ONE person, he would still be a loving and merciful God. Calvinism doesn't deny the mercy of God.

That make no sense.

If God created men for the express purpose of eternal torture, then he is not loving and merciful.

Calvinism denies God's mercy, justice, and love.

 

[itisdeliciouscake]

That make no sense.

If God created men for the express purpose of eternal torture, then he is not loving and merciful.

Calvinism denies God's mercy, justice, and love.

God never created men for the express purpose of eternal torture, you can say it as much as you want, but that is not what calvinism believes.

God created men for the sole purpose of glorifying Him (which ultimately satisfies us).

Man chose not to, Calvinism doesn't deny free-will (necessarily) in the sense that humans never had a choice, but rather it affirms free-will in the sense that man, left to himself, will always choose to reject God. (Romans 3)

The VERY fact that God even sent his Son is evidence of his love, the VERY fact that he showed his grace to anyone is evidence of his mercy.

and I REALLY don't see where you're getting that Calvinism denies God's justice.....

 

[DD2008]

Yes and Yes.


I don't believe that God sends them there with no chance of salvation.

Then you don't believe in universalism or you wouldn't believe God sent anyone there at all.

Do you believe these verses?

Certainly. Explainations below.

• [*]Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
  John 12:31-32
  [*]

All here means all kinds of people, all races not just Jews. If it mean all people it would be the proof text for univeralism.

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

  1Cor. 15:21-22

This means all in Christ will be made alive. In other words all of the Elect. If it was all people this would teach universalism.

• herefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For all that is in Christ. There is no salvation without Christ. So again, all of the Elect.

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

  Rom 11:32

If one believes there are people going to hell one must ask himself "All of who?" The answer is the Elect.

• My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

  1 John 2:1-2

The Atonement isn't just valid for John and his audience but for people from everywhere.

• The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”

  John 1:29

The atonement was sufficient for all people in all parts of the world. However as we have already established it is only effective for the Elect.

 

[itisdeliciouscake]

That make no sense.

If God created men for the express purpose of eternal torture, then he is not loving and merciful.

Calvinism denies God's mercy, justice, and love.

and if ONE man being saved is not enough to validate God's mercy, how many men being saved DOES it take to validate God's mercy? because most of the world is not saved.... most of the world will end up separated from God's glory.... do either of these facts dis-credit God's mercy?

 

[chestertonrules]

God never created men for the express purpose of eternal torture, you can say it as much as you want, but that is not what calvinism believes.

What is the eternal destination of the non elect? Based on whose decision are the non elect the non elect?

God created men for the sole purpose of glorifying Him (which ultimately satisfies us).

God created us because he loves the world. To think that God needs us to glorify himself is laughable.

Man chose not to, Calvinism doesn't deny free-will (necessarily) in the sense that humans never had a choice, but rather it affirms free-will in the sense that man, left to himself, will always choose to reject God. (Romans 3)

Semantics. Calvinism declares that some men are destined for hell by God's design no matter what they do. Calvinism claims that some men are born, by the sovereign will of God, with no other possibility than eternity in Hell.

The VERY fact that God even sent his Son is evidence of his love, the VERY fact that he showed his grace to anyone is evidence of his mercy.

God sent his son for the world, the WHOLE world.

 

[simonthezealot]

To think that God needs us to glorify himself is laughable.

Its only laughable to those who haven't read this truth..
Isa 43:7,
7everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made.’
col 1:16,
16for in* him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.

 

[chestertonrules]

Then you don't believe in universalism or you wouldn't believe God sent anyone there at all.

I don't believe in universalism.

All here means all kinds of people, all races not just Jews. If it mean all people it would be the proof text for univeralism.

It doesn't say all kinds of people. Only Calvinists say that. The fact that Jesus draws all people in no way means that all we come and then follow. This has nothing to do with universalism.

This means all in Christ will be made alive. In other words all of the Elect.

That's not what the bible says, that's what Calvinists say. The bible says: so all will be made alive in Christ.

In other words, Calvinists distort the words of scripture.

If it was all people this would teach universalism. For all that is in Christ.

There is no salvation without Christ. So again, all of the Elect. If one believes there are people going to hell one must ask himself "All of who?"

God is merciful to ALL Because Jesus died for all mens sins, all are led to justification and life. Not all will accept this gift and follow Jesus, however. You keep inserting Calvinist words and dogma that are not in the bible.

The answer is the Elect. The Atonement isn't just valid for John and his audience but for people from everywhere. The atonement was sufficient for all people in all parts of the world. However as we have already established it is only effective for the Elect.

[/QUOTE]


More distortions of the word of God.

Seriously. Review how different your interpretation is from what the bible actually says.

 

[chestertonrules]

Its only laughable to those who haven't read this truth..
Isa 43:7,
7everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made.’
col 1:16,
16for in* him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.

I agree that we were created for God, but I disagree that he needs us to increase his glory.

I disagree with the Calvinist view that God does not love the world.

 

[Thekla]

Its only laughable to those who haven't read this truth..
Isa 43:7,
7everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made.’
col 1:16,
16for in* him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.

I don't know -isn't "eis" (in the Colossians passage) more commonly "into/towards" ?

The word for "for" would be "yar" (gamma alpha rho).

This (towards instead of for) confers a much different sense.


In Colossians 1:20

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

Colosians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

where the if qualifies the result of the "toward" ...

The "all" is what has the possibility, "if" one continues (where the activity is done by the 'ye').

 

[Rhamiel]

Discussion is cool. Though, I'd like to broaden it more - there are more than just Arminian vs. Calvinist views on soteriology.

I'm a Calvinist, according to the theological definition of the term.

Historically there has been a wide range in the views of Calvinists.

These days I think many people confuse HyperCalvinism with Calvinism.


LDG

are the HyperCalvinists the ones who say God created some people for the purpose of burning in hell forever to show his justice?

 

[DD2008]

More distortions of the word of God.

Seriously. Review how different your interpretation is from what the bible actually says.

I'm simply acknowledging that hell is the eternal destination of some as revealed in the Bible. Therefore the rest of the Calvinist view of these scriptures follows. The only other option is universalism. God has predestined His Elect.

Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:7-8

[7] For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot;
[8] and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

However, those who are LED by the spirit of God are the sons of God.

Romans 8:9-14

[9] But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
[10] But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness.
[11] If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you.
[12] So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh --
[13] for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.
[14] For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Because they are predestined to conform to the image of His Son and nothing can separate His Elect from His Love.

Romans 8:28-39

[28] We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.
[29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.
[30] And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.
[31] What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who is against us?
[32] He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him?
[33] Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies;
[34] who is to condemn? Is it Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us?
[35] Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
[36] As it is written, "For thy sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."
[37] No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
[38] For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
[39] nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[MamaZ]

I agree that we were created for God, but I disagree that he needs us to increase his glory.

I disagree with the Calvinist view that God does not love the world.

those who believe in predestination believe that God so loved the world. For none one single person born knows whom God has chosen and who God has not. Therefore we are to preach the gospel to all the nations. The gifts and callings are of God not of man.

 

[simonthezealot]

I agree that we were created for God, but I disagree that he needs us to increase his glory.

I disagree with the Calvinist view that God does not love the world.

I missed the needs us, and was clarify a reason he made us is to glorify Himself.

 

[chestertonrules]

I'm simply acknowledging that hell is the eternal destination of some as revealed in the Bible. Therefore the rest of the Calvinist view of these scriptures follows. The only other option is universalism. God has predestined His Elect.

Calvinists deny that all men have a chance to go to heaven. The bible teaches that all men have this opportunity.

Calvinists deny that a person who is one of the "elect" can ever turn away from God.

Calvinists claim that Jesus didn't die for the whole world yet the bible tells us he did.

Calvinists claim that a just God would create people for the PURPOSE of eternal damnation. This is not just nor is it biblically sound.

Calvinists deny that we must pick up our cross and follow because the believe in unconditional election.

Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:7-8

[7] For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot;
[8] and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

And therefore.....?

However, those who are LED by the spirit of God are the sons of God.

Romans 8:9-14

[9] But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
[10] But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness.
[11] If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you.
[12] So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh --
[13] for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.
[14] For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

This is the opposite of unconditional election. Live according to the ways of the world and the spirit of God will not abide in you.

This passage directly contradicts Calvinism.

things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
[38] For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
[39] nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul has hope, but not presumption:

Phil 3

10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things.

Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."


1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

I realize that we aren't sure if Paul wrote Hebrews, but still...


Hebrews 10:26-27 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."
Hebrews 10:29 "How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit?"

 

[chestertonrules]

those who believe in predestination believe that God so loved the world. For none one single person born knows whom God has chosen and who God has not. Therefore we are to preach the gospel to all the nations. The gifts and callings are of God not of man.

You also believe that God created men for the express purpose of eternal torture.

I'm glad my parents didn't share your view of love.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

You also believe that God created men for the express purpose of eternal torture.

I'm glad my parents didn't share your view of love.

As a Lutheran, I'm NEITHER Arminian (as the RCC is) or Calvinist (as some Protestants are) but as one who observes this debate from the outside, I think your comment, Chester, is not only unfortunate but a mischaracterization. No Calvinist remotely implied what you have imputed to them, and as one who has studied it, such is not a part of Calvinism.


With that, I'll resume my Lutheran "by-stander" position on this one.



.

 

[chestertonrules]

As a Lutheran, I'm NEITHER Arminian (as the RCC is) or Calvinist (as some Protestants are) but as one who observes this debate from the outside, I think your comment, Chester, is not only unfortunate but a mischaracterization. No Calvinist remotely implied what you have imputed to them, and as one who has studied it, such is not a part of Calvinism.


With that, I'll resume my Lutheran "by-stander" position on this one.



.

Tell me then, can one of the non "elect" go to heaven according to Calvinist theology?

Who determines who is "elect" or non "elect" according to Calvinist theology?