Arminian Vs. Calvinist

[Christian Sojourner]

All peoples and All men is not a contradiction. Of course if all men are drawn all peoples will be drawn. Doesn't change a thing.

We know? You should say my dogma theorizes, not we know. We know no such thing because that's not what the bible says.

I'm just quoting Jesus, as is written.

Sovereign Election and Predesination is scripture. The burden is on those who reject what is clearly written, not on those who accept the Bible as reads.

Jesus was clear, "ALL the Father has given Me WILL come to Me, and they will never perish." And again, "No one will snatch them out of My hand."

If you are His election you will come and you will never perish. If you don't come then you were never given to Christ by the Father. As Jesus said, in essence, "If you were My sheep you'd hear My words."

Again Jesus said, "Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word."

 

[chestertonrules]

I'm just quoting Jesus, as is written.

Sovereign Election and Predesination is scripture. The burden is on those who reject what is clearly written, not on those who accept the Bible as reads.

Jesus was clear, "ALL the Father has given Me WILL come to Me, and they will never perish." And again, "No one will snatch them out of My hand."

If you are His election you will come and you will never perish. If you don't come then you were never given to Christ by the Father. As Jesus said, in essence, "If you were My sheep you'd hear My words."

Again Jesus said, "Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word."

I accept the words of Jesus, not necessarily your words.

 

[Christian Sojourner]

I accept the words of Jesus, not necessarily your words.

I don't expect people to agree on every point.

I accept that which I believe to be most logical in light of scripture. Some will disagree with this, but as long as they trust in Christ, then I trust they'll be alright in the end.

 

[chestertonrules]

I don't expect people to agree on every point.

I accept that which I believe to be most logical in light of scripture. Some will disagree with this, but as long as they trust in Christ, then I trust they'll be alright in the end.

Fair enough.

May we both find the truth.

 

[ArcticFox]

Both terms are loaded and don't adequately allow for people to vary in small or even large degrees.

However, it is my belief that Calvinism, or some flavor of it, best accounts for the entirety of the Bible's teaching. Armianism seems unable to provide a valid answer for the plethora of verses speaking of God's predestination and choice.

Particularly, Jesus' words in the gospel of John, and Ephesians 1-3. Romans 8, too.

 

[chestertonrules]

Both terms are loaded and don't adequately allow for people to vary in small or even large degrees.

However, it is my belief that Calvinism, or some flavor of it, best accounts for the entirety of the Bible's teaching. Armianism seems unable to provide a valid answer for the plethora of verses speaking of God's predestination and choice.

Particularly, Jesus' words in the gospel of John, and Ephesians 1-3. Romans 8, too.

These words?

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

Or these:

Eph 4
25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26"In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27and do not give the devil a foothold.


Eph 5
5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

15Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.

Eph 6

7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.

10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

 

[Zoness]

I do not accept the five points of calvinism, namely limited atonement being what I have the most problem with.

 

[MamaZ]

You forget the part where Jesus said many will be called but few chosen.

 

[ArcticFox]

These words?

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

Or these:

Eph 4
25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26"In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27and do not give the devil a foothold.


Eph 5
5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

15Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.

Eph 6

7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.

10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

I seriously do not mean to offend, but let me honest...

Whenever people try to confront me with what they believe to be "Calvinism-crushing" verses, they generally don't pick anything significant. It shows they have a seriously deficient understanding of Calvinism if they think verses like this present any problem at all.

Really... if you want verses that could be troublesome, just ask. I'll try to remember the 2-3 that bothered me as a Calvinist.

I can, however, tell you of the 30+ that bothered me when I was an Arminian.

 

[MamaZ]

“But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:” (2Th 2:13 AV)

 

[chestertonrules]

I seriously do not mean to offend, but let me honest...

Whenever people try to confront me with what they believe to be "Calvinism-crushing" verses, they generally don't pick anything significant. It shows they have a seriously deficient understanding of Calvinism if they think verses like this present any problem at all.

Really... if you want verses that could be troublesome, just ask. I'll try to remember the 2-3 that bothered me as a Calvinist.

I can, however, tell you of the 30+ that bothered me when I was an Arminian.

That seems to be an evasion.

Tell how you can justify Calvinism given this crystal clear words of scripture.

I notice that you didn't even make the attempt.

I'll add some questions to focus your thinking:

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

If Jesus is drawing all people to himself, then it must be our decision as to whether or not we actually come. Do you disagree?



Eph 4
25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26"In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27and do not give the devil a foothold.


If God's grace is irresistible and perseverence of the saints is true, then how could the devil possibly get a foothold on one of the elect? Paul seems to be saying that sin opens to door for the devil, ie. if you don't obey Jesus, ie. do good works, then your salvation could be jeopardized.


Eph 5
5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

Obedience is an act of will. Paul clearly indicates that salvation is conditinoal with this warning.

15Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.

Why be very careful if your salvation is already decided by God?

Eph 6

7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.

What makes you think this passage excludes those who you believe are the non elect?


10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

All these exhortations, including our prayers for the saints, are evidence that perseverence is necessary(our perseverence, not God's) and that our salvation is impacted by our steadfast work in serving God's will.

 

[chestertonrules]

“But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:” (2Th 2:13 AV)

You never address the verses I post. You post some irrelevant evasion then move on as if you have accomplished something.

Keep reading:

15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

What happens if you don't stand firm and hold to the teachings passed on by the apostles?

14If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. 15Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

Warn him about what?

 

[MamaZ]

You never address the verses I post. You post some irrelevant evasion then move on as if you have accomplished something.

Keep reading:




What happens if you don't stand firm and hold to the teachings passed on by the apostles?

what is the teaching of the Apostles? That we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the earth. Do you hold firm to this teaching? Peter calls us a Chosen people.



Warn him about what?

That they are erring from the truth.. That the truth is that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the word.. That is in Christ where we get any righteousness and that it is not of our own free will but the very righteousness of Christ.. We also see that those who go out from the truth of the teaching of the Apostles and make up other gospels were not really of us or they would not have gone out from us..

 

[chestertonrules]

That they are erring from the truth.. That the truth is that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the word..

You are spinning your wheels. If they are already irrevocably chosen, then no warning is necessary.

We are all chosen by God, which is why we exist. God loves all men and wants us to saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. Jesus draws all men to himself.

Now will you acccept and use his grace or reject it?

 

[MamaZ]

You are spinning your wheels. If they are already irrevocably chosen, then no warning is necessary.

We are all chosen by God, which is why we exist. God loves all men and wants us to saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. Jesus draws all men to himself.

Now will you acccept and use his grace or reject it?

Have you not read if we see a brother in a tresspass we should go to that bother? This is love. If we see a brother erring from truth we are to go to him with our mouths filled with the words of Christ. He is chosen. But he may stumble and he may fall. We as loving brothers and sisters are to pick him up. We are to preach to him again the sincere milk of the word. So that he will be able to eat the meat of the word. This is why Paul is always saying beware of false prophets.. For they come to steal kill and destroy Gods sheep. Why because they are of their father the devil and the devil could give a care less about people.. He just wants to devour Gods people because they are Gods people. His beef is with God..

 

[MamaZ]

Do you stand firm in what the Apostles teach us? Do you stand firm and preach as they preach? Do you know that you have eternal life? Do you have that testimony within yourself?

 

[chestertonrules]

Have you not read if we see a brother in a tresspass we should go to that bother? This is love. If we see a brother erring from truth we are to go to him with our mouths filled with the words of Christ. He is chosen. But he may stumble and he may fall.

If he is already chosen, what is there to worry about? Seriously, your understanding of scripture negates most of the bible.

This is why Paul is always saying beware of false prophets.. For they come to steal kill and destroy Gods sheep. Why because they are of their father the devil and the devil could give a care less about people.. He just wants to devour Gods people because they are Gods people. His beef is with God

..

So false prophets can steal, kill, and destroy God's sheep?


I didn't know you believed this.

 

[chestertonrules]

Do you stand firm in what the Apostles teach us? Do you stand firm and preach as they preach? Do you know that you have eternal life? Do you have that testimony within yourself?

I stand on the teachings of the apostles. You stand on the teachings of John Calvin.

I have hope for eternal life, as should we all.

We must never presume. Not even Paul would do such a thing.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

I seriously do not mean to offend, but let me honest...

Whenever people try to confront me with what they believe to be "Calvinism-crushing" verses, they generally don't pick anything significant. It shows they have a seriously deficient understanding of Calvinism if they think verses like this present any problem at all.

You hit the nail on the head there. Often there is more zeal than knowledge from those attempting to "disprove" a theology.

Really... if you want verses that could be troublesome, just ask. I'll try to remember the 2-3 that bothered me as a Calvinist.

I can, however, tell you of the 30+ that bothered me when I was an Arminian.

I appreciate the honesty...

LDG

 

[MamaZ]

I stand on the teachings of the apostles. You stand on the teachings of John Calvin.

I have hope for eternal life, as should we all.

We must never presume. Not even Paul would do such a thing.

If you stood on the teaching of the Apostles then you would know that we are a chosen people. Scripture teaches us that we were predestined before the foundation of the world. That salvation is not a game of Chance but an act of God himself..