Arminian Or Calvinist?

[PrincetonGuy]

Originally Posted by PrincetonGuy
TimRout,

The text not only allows for the interpretation that I gave; it disallows any other interpretation. In John 17:9, Jesus is not asking, at this point in His life, on behalf of the entire world; He is asking specifically on behalf of those who have believed in Him, a subset of the world at large.

Let's consider the text one more time.

"I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours...." [Jn. 17:9/NASB]

Again PG, you're reading your theology into the text. Perhaps it would be meaningful if we slowed down and exegeted this thing a bit more closely.

Yes, Jesus is praying for those who had believed in Him. However, it is erroneous of you to add the word "entire" into your analysis. Jesus did not say, "I do not ask on behalf of the entire world, but only for that subset who believe." Rather, the Lord differentiated the world from those who have been GIVEN to Him by the Father.

As previously established in John 6:37, it is the act of the Father's giving that causes God's chosen people to come to Christ.

No, this has not been previously established and it cannot be established from the Scriptures. Here is what the Scriptures establish:

John 6:37. “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38. “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39. “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40. “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
41. Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”
42. They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?”
43. Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves.
44. “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

What occasioned Jesus to say these words, and what did He mean by them? The answer to those questions is learned from the context in which they are found. For that, we need to back up to v. 22,

22. The next day the crowd that stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other small boat there, except one, and that Jesus had not entered with His disciples into the boat, but that His disciples had gone away alone.
23. There came other small boats from Tiberias near to the place where they ate the bread after the Lord had given thanks.
24. So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they themselves got into the small boats, and came to Capernaum seeking Jesus.
25. When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You get here?”
26. Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
27. “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
28. Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29. Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
30. So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
31. “Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’”
32. Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
33. “For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
34. Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
35. Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36. “But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.”

We can see immediately from the above verses that the conversation between Jesus and this crowed was confrontational and that the crowd consisted of a group of selfish Jews who were more interested in getting free food to eat (v. 26) than they were in partaking of the Bread of Life. Jesus responded to their worldly, selfish attitude by saying,

27. “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
28. Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29. Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Jesus goes here right to the heart of the matter—they MUST believe in Him in order to have eternal life. Indeed, He tells them that they must work “for the food which endures to eternal life.” These Jews then ask Jesus what work of God they must perform (v. 28). He replies (v. 29) that the work of God that they must perform is believing “in Him whom He has sent.” There is no imaginative play on words here, no change in the use of the genitive case, no exegetically sound way out of this one! Jesus is telling this crowd of Jews that the work of God that they must perform is believing “in Him whom He has sent.” In verse 30 the Jews ask Jesus, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work [the same Greek word] do You perform?” They tell Jesus that God gave their fathers manna in the wilderness, and Jesus replies that, “it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.” Notice to whom the Father gives the true bread out of heaven—the recipients of His gift includes these unbelieving (v.36) Jews! In verse 33 Jesus tells these unbelieving Jews that the true bread out of heaven gives life to the world—the “world” without any such modifiers as “the elect.” Lest there be any doubt, Jesus explicitly says in verse 35, “I am the bread of life.”

In verse 37, Jesus says to these Jews, “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” To whom does the word “all” in this verse apply? It applies to all those persons who perform the work of God, believing in Him whom the Father has sent (v. 29), so that the Father can give them to Jesus. All of those persons who perform the work of God, believing in Him whom the Father has sent, will come to Jesus.

In John chapter 6 we find, therefore, Jesus expressly teaching these Jews that, in order to be saved and have eternal life, they must perform the work of God, believing in Him whom the Father has sent.

(All quotations from the Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Originally Posted by PrincetonGuy
There is no contradiction and no need to rewrite John’s gospel in favor of Calvinism. Verse 17 does not suggest that Christ saves everyone, but that God sent Jesus into the world on behalf of everyone that everyone in the world who chooses to believe (v. 15) in Him might be saved.

There is no question John 3 teaches that all who believe on Christ will not perish but have eternal life. The question, then, is why do some people repent and believe unto eternal life? Your answer, if I'm reading you correctly, is "free will". But as we have discussed formerly, "free will" describes a capacity to believe, not a reason for believing.

Each person who believes the Gospel does so for his or her own reasons. This is not to suggest, however, that God’s grace, the dynamic of God by which He saves us from sin and its consequences through our faith in Christ, is not directly involved. See here:
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/Wesley/walk.stm

Can you offer something other than your personal opinion in support of the following contentions?

-The NIV (and perhaps other versions) have been mistranslated by Calvinists.
-The term "world" as seen throughout the New Testament almost always indicates all people everywhere.

The history of the NIV begins at Trinity Christian College, “a four year college in the Christian Reformed faith,” in Palos Heights, Illinois, in 1965 when representatives of the Christian Reformed Church met with representatives of the National Association of Evangelicals and a group of scholars to discuss the need for a new translation of the Bible. From its very inception down to the present day, the Reformed influence has been pervasive and unmistakable. Here is a link to a website providing a list of the people behind the NIV and the TNIV:
http://www.bible-researcher.com/niv-translators.html

I did not make the claim that “The term ‘world’ as seen throughout the New Testament almost always indicates all people everywhere.”

Originally Posted by PrincetonGuy
God’s gift of salvation is universal; man’s belief is not, therefore, not all men are saved. To those who believe in Him and receive Him, He gave the right to become children of God, to the ones believing in His name.

Again, how does one sustain the doctrine of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, while making the free decision of man the final arbiter of one's eternal destiny?

Forgive the cliche, but the old Reformed challenge still seems to have gone unanswered.

Imagine that we're standing by the throne of God on Judgment Day. At the Lord's right hand are gathered all the redeemed, robed in white, singing the eternal praises of their Savior and King. And on the left are myriads of the damned, standing at the threshold of hell, screaming out their hatred of God and mourning their outcast state.

Assuming, for sake of argument, that both groups are of roughly equal intelligence, and both have had a similar exposure to the gospel, what makes the redeemed group different than the damned?

This is a simple question for the Calvinist to answer. The difference is, "God's sovereign, saving grace."

But what does the advocate of free will say? Logically, there must be something --- some quality or merit --- that makes the redeemed group better than the condemned. Perhaps they were more philosophically inclined? Perhaps they were more spiritually sensitive? Perhaps they had better genes? However one wishes to characterize it, the saving quality must somehow reside with the individual, since (according to your view) God's enabling prevenient grace has been given to all in identical measure.

“How does one sustain the doctrine of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, while making the free decision of man the final arbiter of one's eternal destiny?” Such a concept is not sustainable, and it need not be, for the very simple reason that the doctrine of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone is NOT a Biblical doctrine, but a man-made doctrine that directly contradicts the Scriptures in very many places, most notably in James 2:14-26,

James 2:14. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15. If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16. and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
19. You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26. For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Again, see here: http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/Wesley/walk.stm

I apologize for referencing a website rather than giving you answers in my own words, but I do not have the time to answer every complicated question in my own words.

(All quotations from the Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)

 

[PrincetonGuy]

My Dear Readers,

John 3:16. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” (NASB, 1995)

Until John Calvin came along, about 1500 years after Jesus spoke the words that we find in John 3:16, Jesus was understood by all to be teaching that God loved all the inhabitants of the world. If Jesus did not mean that, but really meant that God loved only a predestined elect group of persons, the only possible reasonable conclusion is that Jesus suffered from very poor communication skills and that He was not really the Son of God, but merely a Jewish carpenter who was very confused about his identity. But no, Jesus said what He meant, and He meant what He said. He loved you, your family, your friends and everyone else, and He gave up His life on the cross that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. In this, God’s love for the entire world, even for those who hate Him, the majesty of God brings to the knees those who hear the gospel and believe it. Let us not rob God of the majesty which is His and His alone.

PrincetonGuy

 

[PrincetonGuy]

1 John 2:1. My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2. and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. (NASB, 1995)

-- King James Version
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

-- New King James Version
1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

-- American Standard Version
1 John 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

-- Revised Standard Version
1 John 2:2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

-- English Standard Version
1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

-- New American Standard Bible, 1995 Update
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

-- New Jerusalem Bible
1 John 2:2 He is the sacrifice to expiate our sins,
and not only ours,
but also those of the whole world.

-- New American Bible
1 John 2:2 He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.

-- New Revised Standard Version
1 John 2:2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

-- Young's Bible
1 John 2:2 and he - he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,

-- Darby's Bible
1 John 2:2 and *he* is the propitiation for our sins; but not for ours alone, but also for the whole world.

-- Weymouth's New Testament
1 John 2:2 and He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

-- Webster's Bible
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

-- New Living Translation
1 John 2:2 He is the sacrifice for our sins. He takes away not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

-- Reina Valera Actualizada
1 John 2:2 El es la expiación por nuestros pecados, y no solamente por los nuestros, sino también por los de todo el mundo.

-- Latin Vulgate
1 John 2:2 et ipse est propitiatio pro peccatis nostris non pro nostris autem tantum sed etiam pro totius mundi

-- International Standard Version
1 John 2:2 It is he who is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world's.

-- William's NewTestament
1 John 2:2 And He is Himself the atoning sacrifice for our sins; and not for ours alone, but also for the whole world.

-- Montgomery New Testament
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

 

[Tzaousios]

Until John Calvin came along, about 1500 years after Jesus spoke the words...

I see you still have not made an effort to read Augustine's De diversis quaestionibus VII ad Simplicianum.

 

[DeaconDean]

nm

 

[Albion]

My Dear Readers,

John 3:16. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” (NASB, 1995)

Until John Calvin came along, about 1500 years after Jesus spoke the words that we find in John 3:16, Jesus was understood by all to be teaching that God loved all the inhabitants of the world.

First, that's factually incorrect if, by it, you want us to think that no one believed the Biblical references to election.

Second, you're entertaining a false analogy. Loving all =/= saving all.

If Jesus did not mean that, but really meant that God loved only a predestined elect group of persons, the only possible reasonable conclusion is that Jesus suffered from very poor communication skills and that He was not really the Son of God, but merely a Jewish carpenter who was very confused about his identity.

Again, the mistake of assuming that love cannot exist unless God gives eternal life as part of that love.

no, Jesus said what He meant, and He meant what He said. He loved you, your family, your friends and everyone else, and He gave up His life on the cross that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Why would "whoever believes in Him" be part of the equation, then? According to your line of thought, if you exist, God has to save you or else he doesn't love you. But now you (correctly) admit that salvation is contingent upon something in addition. You have contradicted your thesis.

In this, God’s love for the entire world, even for those who hate Him, the majesty of God brings to the knees those who hear the gospel and believe it.

Still a contradition. You begin by saying that he loves the entire world, including those who reject (hate) him, but then make a requirement that they hear the Gospel and believe it in order to activate that divine love, knowing full well that most of the humans who have ever lived do not or did not meet that requirement.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

My Dear Readers,

Let us compare the themes in John 3:16 with themes found in Genesis, Ecclesiasticus, and Jubilees.


John. 3:16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. (NASB, 1995)

Genesis 22:15. Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven,
16. and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son,
17. indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.
18. "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." (NASB, 1995)

Ecclesiasticus 44:19. ABRAHAM, father of many peoples,
kept his glory without stain:
20. He observed the precepts of the Most High,
and entered into an agreement with him;
In his own flesh he incised the ordinance,
and when tested he was found loyal.
21. For this reason, God promised him with an oath
that in his descendants the nations would be blessed,
That he would make him numerous as the grains of dust,
and exalt his posterity like the stars;
That he would give them an inheritance from sea to sea,
and from the River to the ends of the earth. (New American Bible)

Jubilees 18:14. And the Lord called Abraham by his name a second time from heaven, as he caused us to appear to speak to him in the name of the Lord.
15. And he said: ‘By Myself have I sworn, saith the Lord,
Because thou hast done this thing,
And hast not withheld thy son, thy beloved son, from Me,
That in blessing I will bless thee,
And in multiplying I will multiply thy seed
As the stars of heaven, And as the sand which is on the seashore.
And thy seed shall inherit the cities of its enemies,
16. And in thy seed shall all nations of the earth be blessed;
Because thou hast obeyed My voice,
And I have shown to all that thou art faithful unto Me in all that I have said unto thee:
Go in peace.’ (From The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament by R.H. Charles, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1913)


Let us also observe the fact that Paul taught in his Epistle to the Galatians that the seed written of in Genesis 22:18 (quoted above) was a reference to Christ,

Galatians 3:16. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. (NASB, 1995)

And let us also observe in Genesis 22:18 the words, “all the nations of the earth,” a reference to all the peoples of the world. The offering up by Abraham of his only son is a figure of God the Father offering up His only son, Jesus. The Israelites, as a people, pursuing righteousness through the Law rather than through faith, rejected the blessing and nailed Jesus to the cross. Therefore, it can be seen that the gift of our Savior, Christ Jesus, was given to the world by God who “so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life,” but not all of the world chose to receive that gift into their hearts to be born again.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

First, that's factually incorrect if, by it, you want us to think that no one believed the Biblical references to election.

No, it is not factually incorrect. Until John Calvin came along, about 1500 years after Jesus spoke the words that we find in John 3:16, Jesus was understood by all to be teaching that God loved all the inhabitants of the world.

Second, you're entertaining a false analogy. Loving all =/= saving all.

I am not entertaining that analogy.

Again, the mistake of assuming that love cannot exist unless God gives eternal life as part of that love.

I am not making that assumption.

Why would "whoever believes in Him" be part of the equation, then? According to your line of thought, if you exist, God has to save you or else he doesn't love you. But now you (correctly) admit that salvation is contingent upon something in addition. You have contradicted your thesis.

No, you have radically misunderstood my post.

Still a contradition. You begin by saying that he loves the entire world, including those who reject (hate) him, but then make a requirement that they hear the Gospel and believe it in order to activate that divine love, knowing full well that most of the humans who have ever lived do not or did not meet that requirement.

No, you have radically misunderstood my post. [/quote]

 

[DeaconDean]

I used to think most fundamentalist Christians (especially Baptists) were generally Arminian in direction but going to this subforum I've noticed many Calvinists. So are you a Calvinist or an Arminian?

How have we gone from this question, a simple one such as are you Arminian or Calvinist, to what is posted above me?

I know of at least two anti-Calvinists who are posting in this thread, why are we debating this?

Getting a little "Off-Topic" aren't we?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Albion]

No, it is not factually incorrect. Until John Calvin came along, about 1500 years after Jesus spoke the words that we find in John 3:16, Jesus was understood by all to be teaching that God loved all the inhabitants of the world.

Did Calvin say that God doesn't love his creation? No. This is a red herring. Calvinism isn't to be defined as you are doing it--by guessing at whom God supposedly loves and whom he supposedly doesn't.

No, you have radically misunderstood my post.

If you think so, feel free to expliain in what way you believe I did.

 

[Vince53]

We have seen that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, but they can resist it. What about repentance? Does God grant repentance only to the elect, or to the world?

Acts 11:18 "...Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."

Acts 5:31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

However, repentance can be resisted. Romans 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

 

[Albion]

We have seen that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, but they can resist it. What about repentance? Does God grant repentance only to the elect, or to the world?

Acts 11:18 "...Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."

Acts 5:31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

However, repentance can be resisted. Romans 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

We do not know that repentance can be resisted. We also do not know that repentence, if it comes, is sufficient to merit salvation. What we do know is that men are saved by FAITH, not by repentance in the absence of faith, and that there are God's elect.

How that can be gotten around (Biblically-speaking, that is) so that everyone is equal in God's eyes--a nice democratic, twenty-first century social ideal--I personally do not know.

 

[Vince53]

The Bible does state that Judas "repented himself," but it is a different Greek word than is used in the verses I quoted. While salvation is by faith alone, it is impossible to turn to Christ without turning away from sin.

 

[Albion]

The Bible does state that Judas "repented himself," but it is a different Greek word than is used in the verses I quoted. While salvation is by faith alone, it is impossible to turn to Christ without turning away from sin.

It's only because of Faith that anyone would care to turn away from sin.

 

[Vince53]

Okay, I see the problem. Repentance and belief are not two separate acts. When a person turns to Christ, he turns away from sin.

Easy believism is the belief that if you say the words "Jesus please save me," and mean it, you are saved, even if you have no intention of turning away from your sins. But a person who does that did not "completely accept" Christ, and did not really turn to Christ. A person who accepts Christ as Savior, but not as Lord, did not accept Christ.

Man, on his own, will never turn to Christ. That's why the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. And that's why God has granted repentance to both Israel and to the Gentiles.

 

[Albion]

Okay, I see the problem. Repentance and belief are not two separate acts. When a person turns to Christ, he turns away from sin.

Easy believism is the belief that if you say the words "Jesus please save me," and mean it, you are saved, even if you have no intention of turning away from your sins. But a person who does that did not "completely accept" Christ, and did not really turn to Christ. A person who accepts Christ as Savior, but not as Lord, did not accept Christ.

Man, on his own, will never turn to Christ. That's why the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. And that's why God has granted repentance to both Israel and to the Gentiles.

I'm not sure if you are addressing your remarks to me, but if so I'll give my reaction. I like much of what you wrote. Repentance is a consequence of faith and, as you are thinking, pretty much a "given" if there is faith--real faith, as you pointed out. But we have here a discussion that is supposed to center on Arminianism vs. Calvinism. How does that enter in? Well, the question remains, "How does one come to have saving faith?" In my own opinion, the Arminian argument is much less cohesive than the Calvinist argument and probably also much less based upon Scripture.

 

[Vince53]

Romans 1:21 shows another aspect of how God reaches out to men with a genuine offer of salvation, and how mankind resists that offer:

...because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

God does not choose innocent men, darken their hearts, and then blame them for not accepting Christ. John 1:9 shows us that God enlightens all men. But when they choose to reject that light, the darkness that follows is their own fault, not God's.

 

[Albion]

Romans 1:21 shows another aspect of how God reaches out to men with a genuine offer of salvation, and how mankind resists that offer:

...because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

God does not choose innocent men, darken their hearts, and then blame them for not accepting Christ. John 1:9 shows us that God enlightens all men. But when they choose to reject that light, the darkness that follows is their own fault, not God's.

Very true, except that it was not "a genuine offer of salvation," and you seem to be assuming that all these men could have followed Christ and so have fouind salvation. God reaches out to men in general and in many ways, but he saves only those whom he allows to have the faith. In the above, we read "although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God...." That shows us that saving faith is not universally available 'for the taking.'

 

[arationalchristian]

I don't think that scripture clearly points one way or the other on the subject of Arminianism and Calvinism. However, what I do know is that the early Christians (and along with the first 1500 years of Christianity) all believed in free will. These men studied at the feet of the apostles, and possibly some of them studied with Jesus. If predestination was true, then I'm confident that the Early Church Fathers would have known that, instead of having a wholesale acceptance of free will. Thus, I would think it arrogant for me to assert that my private interpretation of scripture is better than the knowledge that the Early Church Fathers got straight from the apostles.