Armegeddon/Gog-Magog same event?

I put "I am not sure". However, when I was on here a few years ago I heard you arguing they may be one and the same, and found that a brilliant possibility.

I have since remarked on that observation of yours here and there with people I know, and recalled your name.

My own perspective at that time already was that there is an extraordinary similarity between the two events. So it very well could be the case.

I cannot see how anyone could think that the Gog/Magog attack and the one that happens at the Return are the same event. They are led be different people, they have a different purpose and the result of each is different.
God's purpose for the GM attack, is in order for Him to display His power, Ezekiel 38:23, but the attack led by the 'beast and all the kings of the earth', Rev.19:19 results in the destruction of all the ungodly peoples and commences the Millennium.

I will go ahead and mention why this is possible, seeing the poster after me sees it is impossible... but I do not have a response for them, so will respond to the first post:

First of all, as I said, "I do not know". It could be. Or maybe not.

There are strong similarities. In the first one you see Satan (The Destroyer, King of the Spirits of the Abyss) being released from the Abyss.

Soon afterwards, Satan leads the nations against the City of God and are destroyed.

Likewise, in the second situation, Satan comes out of the abyss, and leads the nations against the City of God and are destroyed.

Some of the names and details are different, but the overall trend is the same. One can say this matters. It might. Or it might not. Satan is Satan.

People say "the President did this" or "the President did that", when the President really did not do anything, but because he or she is the President that can say this and people know what they mean.

They also say, "Satan did this" or "Satan did that", when, in fact, while it was Satan it was also likely a different demon entirely. But, of course, saying it is Satan does not change the meaning nor even truthfulness of what they are saying.

But, to understand *my* viewpoint, I think is near impossible for most readers (if not all here), merely because I take a strong "I do not know" stance.

The OP may have evidence I do not have. But as for seeing that what they are saying is a strong theory, a strong possibility, I can surely see that.

This is because I do not know who all of these metaphors represent. I am not going "I know, I know" and so setting artificially the boundaries of possibility.

I believe this is highly dangerous behavior.

And would strongly encourage people to retain an open and cautious mind, which is especially called for when considering Revelation.

Very often Christians have to painfully be corrected and realize that hard set beliefs that they have had are incorrect. They may think that by strongly believing one interpretation or another is faith. But, very often this is simply believing very strongly in something which is simply not true. And we will all know the truth soon on all such matters. So anything not grounded in truth will be demolished, and often very painfully so.


I believe the best approach to Revelation is like if you are a homicide cop. Consider various theories. Keep an open mind. But do not be biased. Rely on the evidence. And the evidence for the meaning for many things in Revelation is slim. Unless you have specific insight given to you from Heaven. Where "insight" means "evidence".


It does not matter how popular a theory is, nor what denomination supports it. We saw this with the Jews, and God does surely not hold favorites. If they could be in error with their mainstream teachings, so can Christians.


As for this theory (or hey, maybe it is more then theory and proven to the OP).... being bizarre: you are talking here about Revelation. There are many questions people really can not answer. As for ordering, there are also ordering issues in Revelation. Some things stated might be like a prologue.

What could be happening is specific details are given in the first instance. And in the second instance, less details are given, but different metaphors are used.

This would simply be repeating the very same thing happening twice, in two different ways. That no introduction or seeming transition is made does not matter. In retrospect, like with Daniel's prophecies, it should all be clear.



Considering the strong similarities between the two accounts, I do consider this a very strong theory. Further, there are deeply unanswered questions which this would explain in both accounts.

If you do not know what those questions are, you should. Because Revelation should be raising a lot of questions with any truly interested readers.

keras said:

I cannot see how anyone could think that the Gog/Magog attack and the one that happens at the Return are the same event. They are led be different people, they have a different purpose and the result of each is different.
God's purpose for the GM attack, is in order for Him to display His power, Ezekiel 38:23, but the attack led by the 'beast and all the kings of the earth', Rev.19:19 results in the destruction of all the ungodly peoples and commences the Millennium.

Click to expand...

From my perspective, I am familiar with your theories here, and I can see how the OP's theory is also plausible.

Different metaphors are used and there is no obvious transition. Transitions in works are normally very clear, but this is not the way necessarily of dreams and visions. People therefore expect Revelation to be entirely linear, but at the same time many mainstream views actually do not consider this to be true: for instance, many view the fall from Heaven written of in Revelation 12 to have happened at the Garden of Eden.

There are different metaphors used, but these metaphors definitely have much equivalent between them.

Satan leads the nations against God and the people of God and are destroyed. Satan leads the nations against God and the people of God and are destroyed.

Twice.

Satan is not literally Gog and the nations are not literally Magog. The Beast and False Prophets are metaphors for someone, or something.

Whatever your viewpoint is: these are metaphors, not the actual thing, and it is ultimately all "Satan".


Satan rises from the Abyss in Revelation 9.

Satan rises from the Abyss in Revelation 20.


Revelation 9 does not say how Satan got there.

Midst, I basically concur with the approach you relate in post #103, above.

At the same time, objectivity itself has to be based on principles of objectivity on the one hand and objectivity as neccessarily determined within one's particular assigned responsibities within a household.

What a cop is able to see, given the "reason of use" his assigned responsibility "within the household" of Law Enforcement, will not only determine his objecttivity but its limitations. A Detective is able to see what the Cop is neither assigned, nor trained to the detection of. Where his job ends, a Detective's begins. And then Forensics ad infinitum, followed by the Courts and so on..

Point is, the respective objectitivity each is required but also, it specific principles.

In short, at some point, Scripture desires we approach It via specific principles of objectivity. That, at some point the "wait and see" give way to an objective "We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak," 2 Cor. 2:4.

We neither get to that by continuing in a wait and see outlook, nor through both reasoning our own notions into Scripture, at the same time that we conclude we are on to the right approach just because our own reasoning makes sense to us.

In this, I strongly suspect you understand a lot of what I have related in this post.

For if you really do try to be objective, said objectivity will concord with mine as yours rang true to mine.

Scripture speaks of God's wanting believers to come to where they are able to see eye to eye, to "be of the same mind, to mind the same things, 1 Cor. 1:10. Fools disagree with that due to "what makes sense to" them, outside of Scripture's own reasoning.

Consider the above, and the Lord [through HIS Word ALONE] give the understanding," 2.Tim. 2:7.

Danoh said:

Midst, I basically concur with the approach you relate in post #103, above..........*snip

Scripture speaks of God's wanting believers to come to where they are able to see eye to eye, to "be of the same mind, to mind the same things, 1 Cor. 1:10. Fools disagree with that due to "what makes sense to" them, outside of Scripture's own reasoning..........

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Those mysterious 10 horns/kings are also of one mind.
I have a rather interesting perspective/view on them if any here would like to discuss it at the thread link below.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7286692
The 10 horns and beast Reve 17 question

NKJV] Reve 17:
12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet,
but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast.
13 "These are of one mind/gnwmhn <1106>, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.
17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose/gnwmhn <1106>, to be of one mind/gnwmhn <1106>, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

View Poll Results: Armegeddon and Gog-magog same event?

I view them as the same event 8 16.67%

I view them as different events 29 60.42%

I am not sure 7 14.58%

Does it really matter? 4 8.33%



.

I will note as I have to go out, but will come back to responses directed at me:

There is *very* strong precedent for visions being presented duplicate times without explanation that these visions are showing the very same thing.

Where? This is something everyone interested in prophecy should know, right?

Daniel.

I might further note: Daniel is an incredible wealth of information about Revelation. Many of the types of symbolism used in Daniel is directly repeated in Revelation.

And Daniel is probably the most clear and inarguable case example of where prophecy did predict the future.

In fact, today, cynics force date Daniel to the time of Maccabees. Merely because Daniel's prophecies so clearly depict the timeline of Western Civilization and history to that time period.

In retrospect, this is so obvious that even atheists and other cynics can not believe Daniel is possibly dated to the actual time of Nebuchadnezzar.

(It is.)

Consider Daniel, like Revelation is likely impossible to discern at the time or before: but at some juncture it must become very clear that it in no uncertain terms expressed exact and astonishing foreknowledge of the future.

Danoh,
the link above offers several choices at my end on so-called "Prophecy" but none by Impe.

Don't trust any material that has orchestrated music playing in the back ground. it will warp what you're reading.

where is the prophecy of the 'march on Jerusalem'? Where is it literal?

Does anyone think that God is saying that now God does not remember the sins of Israel? Ez 38:21+. Israel is rather angry at God about its history.

God also must pour out his spirit on the house of Israel. This happened in Acts 2.

I find more mistakes than 'confirmations.'

Tim LaHaye, and two Calvary Chapel pastors are not scholarship.

How many of you pray about events that are 2500 years ahead of your time?

It is interesting to me how the futurist "sees" nuclear war in those Ezek chapters, but doesn't see the "literal" weapons that are mentioned. It's going to take 7 years to burn the weapons; sounds pretty literal and non-nuke to me.

I will respond to #113 above, but not IP's other provocative posts.
Nuke war in Ezekiel 38-39? no hint of that anywhere.
The weapons mentioned are what was used in ancient times; the time those prophesies were written. So that was the only way the prophet could describe them. However what so many can't see, is how the Lord will destroy our modern weapons during His Day of wrath, which will happen before the GM attack. Hosea 2:18, Micah 5:10-11, Psalm 46:9, Psalm 76:3.
Anyway, things like rifle stocks and mortar bases are now made of lignostone, a compressd plastic/wood material that do burn. Plus all types of fuel.

Ah, so there is an accommodation to what they would understand back then. Hmmm.

Do these prophecy experts know other chapters besides these 3 (Ez 38, 39, Ps 83 with its miraculous preserved Irish copy?)

Interplanner said:

Danoh,
the link above offers several choices at my end on so-called "Prophecy" but none by Impe.

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What is it about how you read words that you couldn't understand what I wrote - that the youtube video laying out its case for TWO Gogs and Magogs is called "The Gog and Magog Invasions - Richard Jordan"?

I never said it was by Van Impe, who's notions I couldn't care less for.

Jordan has Israel, Church, mystery, agency all mistaken.

Thank you for pointing out a teacher who actually acknowledges the direct path between 2P2P and Gog stuff. Most of them don't know. All Jordan doesn't know is that it is mistaken.

it was not a mystery since the world began. That is all based on a mistaken trans of 'chronois aioniois' in Rom 16:25. It is not since the world began. It is 'for long periods' meaning the age of Judaism, so it is saying the same thing as the replacement criticism of Gal 3:17.

As a contra ex. Scripture, just see Rom 1. The Gospel was known by all the prophets, and that would include Moses. A believer believes the Gospel. So therer have been believers since Gen 3:15, and Abraham was one of them.

This is where the Van Impe source came in; my mistake

So Mr Jordan also is in dispute with all the scholars who say Meshech is not Moscow and Rosh is not Russia etc.

Anyway the thing about 2P2P is that it has all kinds of unfinshed business that needs to happen in the middle east that has nothing to do with the Gospel because people don't know what kind of declaration the Gospel is.

Like our older pal BW, they spend 95% of their time on OT chapters that are NOT interped by the NT instead of the ones that are. Go figure.

RibI said:

Armageddon, better known as the hill of Megiddo, over looking the plain or valley of Megiddo.

The battle of Amageddon happens at Christ's return.

The battle with Gog and Magog happens 1,000 years later when Satan is released for a short season and gathers Gog and Magog for battle.

Two different battles at two defferent times.
Simple as that.

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