Armageddon (Har-Mageddo)

[interpreter]

That is misleading. All seven churches existed around AD 60 when there were nine churches in Asia. At that time a monstrous earthquake destroyed Laodicea, Hierapolis and Colossae. This is Tacitus on Laodicea:

"In the course of the same year [that Ummidius Quadratus died, AD60-61,] Laodicea, a celebrated city in Asia, was destroyed by an earthquake; and though Rome in so great a calamity contributed no kind of aid, it was soon rebuilt, and, by the internal resources of the inhabitants, recovered its former splendor." [Arthur Murphy, 'Tacitus Vol III,' Henry Colburn & Richard Bentley, 1830, Book XIV.xxvii, p.30]​

Laodicea quickly rebuilt (in a few years by some accounts,) making that the only time in history when the seven Churches in Asia were only those specifically mentioned in the Revelation.

So, some years before AD70, there existed exactly the seven churches in Asia mentioned in the Revelation, and no others. Maybe that is why John wrote "the" seven churches, rather than "seven of the" churches, or other variant indicating some, but not all.

One other point: the seven churches had to have been in existence about 6 years prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, since the beast, Nero, died in AD68, and he persecuted the saints for 42 months (Rev 13:5.) Further, it seems John would have mentioned Hierapolis and Colossae, if they still existed.

Therefore, I believe John saw the vision prior to AD65, but after Laodicea rebuilt from the great earthquake of AD60-61.

John wasn't on the Isle of Patmos in 65 AD. Jesus had to wait until 95 AD for the seven Asian churches to be in place. Called stars and messengers, they are the key to understanding the Revelation. Their coordinates are star-like messengers that form 21 vectors that point the reader to all the good things foretold. One vector points to New York City, Philadelphia and Washington DC, like 3 ducks in a row. They are the 3 historical capitals of the US which is the 4th horseman to rule the earth for Jesus.

 

[Rev20]

John wasn't on the Isle of Patmos in 65 AD. Jesus had to wait until 95 AD for the seven Asian churches to be in place.

Will you please provide us with a historical reference for that claim?

 

[CryOfALion]

Har-Megiddo? "Har" in Hebrew means mount or mountain.

What is it?

Mt Megiddo (Armageddon) is symbolically Mt Jerusalem A.D. 70, most notably "that great day of God Almighty".

Or the Valley of Megiddo A.D. ?????.

Either way, it is a place, and not synonymous with WWIII, WWIV, TEOTWAWKI, or anything else of the sort.

Har Megiddo is "mount(ain) of Megiddo." It is a place outside of Haifa that surrounds a "valley" with a raised area in it called "Tell Megiddo (mound of Mediggo.)

It is the perfect place to stage a war because there is an inverted choke point (Har/Tell,) and the death toll will be conveniently high, and neatly stored. This will also be convenient for all of the fouls of the air that are supposed to eat their flesh.

This happens right before "it is done," and after the beast is here.

 

[Codger]

Revelation 16:16-21 (NIV2011)
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!”
18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake.
19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.
20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found.
21 From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

The book of Revelation is a book written in symbols - there is not much to be taken literally. What is the symbol for "Armageddon?" It's simple - it is the geographical place where Israel's greatest battles were fought. Here it is symbolizing the great confrontation between God and his people Vs the government and power of the city of Rome.

Revelation 16:16-21 (NIV2011)
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

The final judgment of Rome which violently began in 410AD with the invasion of Alaric the Visigoth..

17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

God had persevered until the 5th century before he finally judged Rome and its corrupt government. Rome's final judgment was prophesied by John in Rev 18:21.

18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake.

What is the symbol for "Earthquake?"

It is a "shaking" - God from time to time shakes humanity - He shakes all that can be shaken - in this case the shaking was massive. The shaking occurred all over Europe for decades - that is why it is called the greatest earthquake ever because literal earthquakes only last for minutes and only cover a limited area. The shaking was the marauding nomadic tribes who displaced one another as the Roman empire was collapsing; and there was a lot of bloodshed, looting, and violence.

19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

Here it is symbolizing that the government was split into three different groups. Under the threat of Alaric in 395AD the government was divided. The Senate remained at Rome, the emperor moved to Milan/Ravenna, and the remainder moved to Constantinople. Very simple and it fits the context exactly.

20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found.

What are the symbols "island" and "Mountains" mean. They are not literal. It is simple - they are places of escape, respite, or hiding. John is telling his audience that there will be no place of escape from the barbarians and violence that is coming with them.

21 From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

Large literal hailstones are a rarity in nature and there has never been a large scale hailstorm in history. Rain from heaven is a symbol of blessing and hail is a symbol of a curse because of its destructive power. Remember Egypt.

This "Armageddon" as described occurred in the early 5th century and it concerns itself with the final judgment and destruction of the power of Rome.

This interpretation is written from the standpoint that the book of Revelation was written to the first century Christians; and at the time they believed that it would shortly come to pass. (within a few years) Both Jesus and John never gave a timetable as to when their prophetic events would be completed.

And so we are looking for a very simple message; and to those who are looking for a big complicated message that is interpreted to take place in our day you are way off track. Only the Second Coming and associated events remain to be fulfilled.

 

[interpreter]

Will you please provide us with a historical reference for that claim?

Several of the 7 Asian churches are not mentioned anywhere in the other books of the NT.

 

[ebedmelech]

John wasn't on the Isle of Patmos in 65 AD. Jesus had to wait until 95 AD for the seven Asian churches to be in place. Called stars and messengers, they are the key to understanding the Revelation. Their coordinates are star-like messengers that form 21 vectors that point the reader to all the good things foretold. One vector points to New York City, Philadelphia and Washington DC, like 3 ducks in a row. They are the 3 historical capitals of the US which is the 4th horseman to rule the earth for Jesus.

You're kidding right?

Paul is spawning churches everywhere on his missionary journey, and we KNOW the church at Ephesus already exists. If you know the proximity of the seven churches, and thought about it...maybe you would have stopped typing. There's NO DOUBT these churches were existant way before 95 AD.

Listen to Paul in 1 Corinthians 16:19:
The churches of Asia greet you. Aquila and Prisca greet you heartily in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

 

[random person]

Either way, it is a place, and not synonymous with WWIII, WWIV, TEOTWAWKI, or anything else of the sort.

Har Megiddo is "mount(ain) of Megiddo." It is a place outside of Haifa that surrounds a "valley" with a raised area in it called "Tell Megiddo (mound of Mediggo.)

It is the perfect place to stage a war because there is an inverted choke point (Har/Tell,) and the death toll will be conveniently high, and neatly stored. This will also be convenient for all of the fouls of the air that are supposed to eat their flesh.

This happens right before "it is done," and after the beast is here.

The mound of Megiddo is in the valley of Jezreel, a site of much bloodshed and slaughter.

There is a big difference between a mere mound in a valley and a mountain.

Armageddon is simply emblematic like "Waterloo".

 

[CryOfALion]

The mound of Megiddo is in the valley of Jezreel, a site of much bloodshed and slaughter.

There is a big difference between a mere mound in a valley and a mountain.

Armageddon is simply emblematic like "Waterloo".

Yes, Har (Mount) Megiddo overlooks Jezreel Valley, which contains Tel (mound) Megiddo in the middle. Very waterloo-esque.

It is interesting israeli Highway "66" runs north and south right through the city of Megiddo, and run right along Tel Megiddo.

 

[random person]

Yes, Har (Mount) Megiddo overlooks Jezreel Valley, which contains Tel (mound) Megiddo in the middle. Very waterloo-esque.

It is interesting israeli Highway "66" runs north and south right through the city of Megiddo, and run right along Tel Megiddo.

I met it was emblematic, an expression, much like "Met His Waterloo" or "Remember The Alamo", etc. That this is merely a prophetic phrase or idiom.

There isn't going to be a great end times battle situated at Mt. Megiddo because for one thing, Megiddo isn't a mountain but rather a mound or plain.

But this is an idiom in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70, and the slaughter of millions it experienced.

 

[rdclmn72]

There is no battle of Armageddon, its 64 mi. from Jerusalem where the events of Zechariah 14 occurs.

 

[random person]

There is no battle of Armageddon, its 64 mi. from Jerusalem where the events of Zechariah 14 occurs.

Most importantly, Mt. Megiddo does not exist at all.

And the events of Zechariah 14 occurred with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit (the river) and destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70 when God gathered the nations (multi-ethical Roman armies and multi-ethical Jews) together against Jerusalem when God fought all the enemies of New Jerusalem (the Christian Church).

 

[random person]

double post

 

[interpreter]

The fact remains that the Euphrates was dry on 9/11

 

[Rev20]

The fact remains that the Euphrates was dry on 9/11

I wouldn't be too alarmed at the figurative verse in the Rev 16:12. The current situation appears to be mostly man-made:

"The Euphrates is drying up. Strangled by the water policies of Iraq’s neighbors, Turkey and Syria; a two-year drought; and years of misuse by Iraq and its farmers, the river is significantly smaller than it was just a few years ago. Some officials worry that it could soon be half of what it is now."​

...​

"The most frequently cited culprits are the Turkish and Syrian governments. Iraq has plenty of water, but it is a downstream country. There are at least seven dams on the Euphrates in Turkey and Syria, according to Iraqi water officials, and with no treaties or agreements, the Iraqi government is reduced to begging its neighbors for water."​

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/14/world/middleeast/14euphrates.html

There is also this historical item about the Euphrates that occurred during the Roman/Jewish War of the first century:

"6. . . Those also that had been selected out of these four legions, and sent with Mucianus to Italy, had their places filled up out of these soldiers that came out of Egypt with Titus; who were two thousand men, chosen out of the armies at Alexandria. There followed him also three thousand drawn from those that guarded the river Euphrates; as also there came Tiberius Alexander, who was a friend of his, most valuable, both for his good-will to him, and for his prudence. He had formerly been governor of Alexandria, but was now thought worthy to be general of the army [under Titus]. The reason of this was, that he had been the first who encouraged Vespasian very lately to accept this his new dominion, and joined himself to him with great fidelity, when things were uncertain, and fortune had not yet declared for him. He also followed Titus as a counselor, very useful to him in this war, both by his age and skill in such affairs." [Flavius Josephus, "The Complete Works: Wars of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, Book V.1.6 pp.1401-02]​

 

[interpreter]

I wouldn't be too alarmed at the figurative verse in the Rev 16:12. The current situation appears to be mostly man-made:

"The Euphrates is drying up. Strangled by the water policies of Iraq’s neighbors, Turkey and Syria; a two-year drought; and years of misuse by Iraq and its farmers, the river is significantly smaller than it was just a few years ago. Some officials worry that it could soon be half of what it is now."​

...​

"The most frequently cited culprits are the Turkish and Syrian governments. Iraq has plenty of water, but it is a downstream country. There are at least seven dams on the Euphrates in Turkey and Syria, according to Iraqi water officials, and with no treaties or agreements, the Iraqi government is reduced to begging its neighbors for water."​

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/14/world/middleeast/14euphrates.html

There is also this historical item about the Euphrates that occurred during the Roman/Jewish War of the first century:

"6. . . Those also that had been selected out of these four legions, and sent with Mucianus to Italy, had their places filled up out of these soldiers that came out of Egypt with Titus; who were two thousand men, chosen out of the armies at Alexandria. There followed him also three thousand drawn from those that guarded the river Euphrates; as also there came Tiberius Alexander, who was a friend of his, most valuable, both for his good-will to him, and for his prudence. He had formerly been governor of Alexandria, but was now thought worthy to be general of the army [under Titus]. The reason of this was, that he had been the first who encouraged Vespasian very lately to accept this his new dominion, and joined himself to him with great fidelity, when things were uncertain, and fortune had not yet declared for him. He also followed Titus as a counselor, very useful to him in this war, both by his age and skill in such affairs." [Flavius Josephus, "The Complete Works: Wars of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, Book V.1.6 pp.1401-02]​

All of the 7 last plagues are man-made. But the Euphrates being dry on 9/11 had nothing yo do with the dams in Turkey and Syria. It was all Saddam Husseins doings.