Armageddon (Har-Mageddo)

[random person]

Har-Megiddo? "Har" in Hebrew means mount or mountain.

What is it?

Mt Megiddo (Armageddon) is symbolically Mt Jerusalem A.D. 70, most notably "that great day of God Almighty".

Or the Valley of Megiddo A.D. ?????.

 

[random person]

Harmagedón

Strong's Concordance

Harmagedón: Har-Magedon, a mountain of unc. location
Original Word: Ἁρμαγεδών
Part of Speech: Proper Noun, Indeclinable
Transliteration: Harmagedón
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-mag-ed-dohn')
Short Definition: Armageddon
Definition: Armageddon.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin

of Hebrew origin har and Megiddon

Definition

Har-Magedon, a mountain of unc. location (Preterists believe it is Mt Jerusalem A.D. 70)

Strong's Greek: 717. ?????????? (Harmagedón) -- Har-Magedon, a mountain of unc. location


Megiddon or Megiddo

Strong's Concordance

Megiddon or Megiddo: a place in Manasseh
Transliteration: Megiddon or Megiddo
Short Definition: Megiddo
NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin

from gadad

Definition

a place in Manasseh

Strong's Hebrew: 4023b. Megiddon or Megiddo -- a place in Manasseh


gadad

Strong's Concordance

gadad: to penetrate, cut
Original Word: גָּדַד
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: gadad
Phonetic Spelling: (gaw-dad')
Short Definition: cut

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin

a prim. root

Definition

to penetrate, cut (I.e. cut-off, slaughter)

Strong's Hebrew: 1413. ?????? (gadad) -- to penetrate, cut

 

[interpreter]

It is "Ar Mageddon" which mans "City of the Sanctuaries." The Battle of Ar Mageddon began on 9/11 when the Euphrates was dry. We are now dropping 100 pound "hailstones" on the 7th head pf the beast.

 

[random person]

It is "Ar Mageddon" which mans "City of the Sanctuaries." The Battle of Ar Mageddon began on 9/11 when the Euphrates was dry. We are now dropping 100 pound "hailstones" on the 7th head pf the beast.

Babylon fell when the Persian-Mede forces diverted the headwaters Euphrates and lowered it to about their calves and knees permitting an easy and safe crossing.

But also, the Euphrates passed beneath the walls of Babylon, allowing the Persian-Mede forces to walk right in and take the whole city with little resistance.

Ironically, Jerusalem in A.D. 70 suffered a similar fate when the Jewish forces under siege dug under its walls in order to build traps and pitfalls for the Roman siege towers that stood 75' high, but what they ended up doing is undermining the foundations of Jerusalem's walls and a part of it collapsed like the walls of Jericho. And at that point, all is history.

100 hailstones were stones launched from the Roman ballista or onager that could launch stones between 50lbs to 300lbs.

Babylon has always been a symbol of apostate Jerusalem and it remains the same for the book of Revelation.

 

[interpreter]

Babylon fell when the Persian-Mede forces diverted the headwaters Euphrates and lowered it to about their calves and knees permitting an easy and safe crossing.

But also, the Euphrates passed beneath the walls of Babylon, allowing the Persian-Mede forces to walk right in and take the whole city with little resistance.

Ironically, Jerusalem in A.D. 70 suffered a similar fate when the Jewish forces under siege dug under its walls in order to build traps and pitfalls for the Roman siege towers that stood 75' high, but what they ended up doing is undermining the foundations of Jerusalem's walls and a part of it collapsed like the walls of Jericho. And at that point, all is history.

100 hailstones were stones launched from the Roman ballista or onager that could launch stones between 50lbs to 300lbs.

Babylon has always been a symbol of apostate Jerusalem and it remains the same for the book of Revelation.

Hogwash. The seven last plagues are poured after the great tribulation of WW II. The lower 50 miles of the Euphrates was completely dry for nine years, dried up by Saddam Hussein to prepare the way of the kings of the east as prophesied. He did it with a couple dams and a diversion canal that he called "The Mother of All Battles River.

 

[Interplanner]

Interp,
the exact language that was used of Jerusalem in Mt23 about the deaths of Israel's prophets was used in the Rev of Babylon.

NT eschatology is either about 1st century "business" (Lk 21) with Israel or about the worldwide day of God's judgement. These things don't mix.

 

[interpreter]

Interp,
the exact language that was used of Jerusalem in Mt23 about the deaths of Israel's prophets was used in the Rev of Babylon.

NT eschatology is either about 1st century "business" (Lk 21) with Israel or about the worldwide day of God's judgement. These things don't mix.

Except for the first three chapters, nothing in the Revelation is about the first century. And very little of the Revelation is about our future. The Revelation began unfolding in 312 Ad when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow. We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues, such as skin cancer, red tides, global warming, and the Euphrates drying up, which has led to the Battle of Ar Mageddon.

 

[Interplanner]

says who?

 

[random person]

Hogwash. The seven last plagues are poured after the great tribulation of WW II. The lower 50 miles of the Euphrates was completely dry for nine years, dried up by Saddam Hussein to prepare the way of the kings of the east as prophesied. He did it with a couple dams and a diversion canal that he called "The Mother of All Battles River.

Read Leviticus 26:18, 21, 24, 28.

Where God promises to give Israel seven plagues for her apostasy. Fulfilled already in A.D. 70 Jerusalem. You're reading the apocalyptic language far too literally. The 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 bowls are all in Leviticus chapter 26.

And many preterist believe the 7 seals is Daniel's prophecy being opened and fulfilled in A.D. 70 Jerusalem:

Preterist Timeline of the Great Tribulation​

By Doug Beaumont​

There are striking parallels between the writings of Daniel, John and Matthew with regard to the Great Tribulation and the events surrounding it. When laid out in a chart, it seems clear that they are speaking of the same things. When coupled with the many time related statements in each, it becomes apparent that these events were about to take place in the time of the disciples and not 2,000 years later. Consider the following:



The Sealed Scroll - Coincidence???

Starting from Jesus' words in the Olivett Discourse (Mt. 24, Lk. 21, Mk.13) we can see that the events spoken of refer to the same events in Daniel (Mt. 24:15). Once we have carefully laid out the order of these events in the Olivett Discourse, we can also see that they very closely parallel Jesus' words in Revelation 6. What is interesting is that at the end of Daniel where he asks about the Great Tribulation (Dan. 12:1,6), he is told to seal up his book (12:4,9) because it relates to events at the time of the end.

Note how Revelation 6 opens up - the unsealing of a scroll! Could this be the very scroll Daniel was told to seal? Now, if Daniel is writing about the Great Tribulation (during the time of the end), and Jesus identifies this time with the events of the Olivett Discourse (at the end of the age), and these parallel Revelation 6 - should they not tell the same story? As we see, they do.

Coming Soon

If these things are so, what does it mean when John is told these things are about to take place (Rev. 1:1 and 22:10, 22)? Note that John is told in verse 22 that he is NOT to seal up his book (for the time was near). This is the exact opposite of Daniel's admonition TO seal his book (for the time was apparently still far in the future). Consider this: John wrote Revelation in the 1st Century A.D. If Daniel wrote around 550 B.C. (when "the end" was still far off), and John wrote about the same events less than than 600 years after Daniel (when "the time" was near), how could we still be looking for fulfillment 2,000 years later?

The End - of what?

Daniel was specifically told that "the end" would come when the "power of the holy people [the Jews]" was shattered. The power of the Jews was shattered in 70 A.D. at the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem . . . and it was this very destruction that Jesus was speaking of in the Olivett Discourse (Mt.23:38-24:4).

Matthew records that Jesus said the end would come after the Gospel had been preached in the whole world. It would seem that this could not have happened by 70 A.D. But as Paul shows in Colossians 1:5-6, 23 and Romans 10:18 it had in fact gone into the whole world ("the world" was synonymous with the Roman Empire - see Acts 11:28; 17:6 [and Luke 2:1]).

"The End" was the end of the Old Covenant. The "end times" (or "last days") were the transition period that lasted about 40 years starting from the time of Christ and extending one generation (Mt. 24:34) to 70 A.D. Just as the Old Covenant was established after a 40 year transition time (from Egypt to the Promised Land), so was the New established in a 40 year transition out of spiritual Egypt (1 Cor. 10:1-6; Gal 4:21-31; Heb. 4:9; Rev. 11:8 & 19).

Conclusion

If these things are so then Daniel, John, and Jesus are referring to the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem with regard to the Great Tribulation and the Day of The Lord judgment that the Jews incurred when they rejected Messiah (Mt. 23:36-39). If this is true then, of course, the Great Tribulation is over.

Preterist Timeline of the Great Tribulation

 

[random person]

 

[interpreter]

Read Leviticus 26:18, 21, 24, 28.

Where God promises to give Israel seven plagues for her apostasy. Fulfilled already in A.D. 70 Jerusalem. You're reading the apocalyptic language far too literally. The 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 bowls are all in Leviticus chapter 26.

And many preterist believe the 7 seals is Daniel's prophecy being opened and fulfilled in A.D. 70 Jerusalem:

Preterist Timeline of the Great Tribulation​

By Doug Beaumont​

There are striking parallels between the writings of Daniel, John and Matthew with regard to the Great Tribulation and the events surrounding it. When laid out in a chart, it seems clear that they are speaking of the same things. When coupled with the many time related statements in each, it becomes apparent that these events were about to take place in the time of the disciples and not 2,000 years later. Consider the following:



The Sealed Scroll - Coincidence???

Starting from Jesus' words in the Olivett Discourse (Mt. 24, Lk. 21, Mk.13) we can see that the events spoken of refer to the same events in Daniel (Mt. 24:15). Once we have carefully laid out the order of these events in the Olivett Discourse, we can also see that they very closely parallel Jesus' words in Revelation 6. What is interesting is that at the end of Daniel where he asks about the Great Tribulation (Dan. 12:1,6), he is told to seal up his book (12:4,9) because it relates to events at the time of the end.

Note how Revelation 6 opens up - the unsealing of a scroll! Could this be the very scroll Daniel was told to seal? Now, if Daniel is writing about the Great Tribulation (during the time of the end), and Jesus identifies this time with the events of the Olivett Discourse (at the end of the age), and these parallel Revelation 6 - should they not tell the same story? As we see, they do.

Coming Soon

If these things are so, what does it mean when John is told these things are about to take place (Rev. 1:1 and 22:10, 22)? Note that John is told in verse 22 that he is NOT to seal up his book (for the time was near). This is the exact opposite of Daniel's admonition TO seal his book (for the time was apparently still far in the future). Consider this: John wrote Revelation in the 1st Century A.D. If Daniel wrote around 550 B.C. (when "the end" was still far off), and John wrote about the same events less than than 600 years after Daniel (when "the time" was near), how could we still be looking for fulfillment 2,000 years later?

The End - of what?

Daniel was specifically told that "the end" would come when the "power of the holy people [the Jews]" was shattered. The power of the Jews was shattered in 70 A.D. at the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem . . . and it was this very destruction that Jesus was speaking of in the Olivett Discourse (Mt.23:38-24:4).

Matthew records that Jesus said the end would come after the Gospel had been preached in the whole world. It would seem that this could not have happened by 70 A.D. But as Paul shows in Colossians 1:5-6, 23 and Romans 10:18 it had in fact gone into the whole world ("the world" was synonymous with the Roman Empire - see Acts 11:28; 17:6 [and Luke 2:1]).

"The End" was the end of the Old Covenant. The "end times" (or "last days") were the transition period that lasted about 40 years starting from the time of Christ and extending one generation (Mt. 24:34) to 70 A.D. Just as the Old Covenant was established after a 40 year transition time (from Egypt to the Promised Land), so was the New established in a 40 year transition out of spiritual Egypt (1 Cor. 10:1-6; Gal 4:21-31; Heb. 4:9; Rev. 11:8 & 19).

Conclusion

If these things are so then Daniel, John, and Jesus are referring to the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem with regard to the Great Tribulation and the Day of The Lord judgment that the Jews incurred when they rejected Messiah (Mt. 23:36-39). If this is true then, of course, the Great Tribulation is over.

Preterist Timeline of the Great Tribulation

Lol. Next you will tell me that there was global warming in 70 AD, or that the Euphrates was dry then.

 

[random person]

Lol. Next you will tell me that there was global warming in 70 AD, or that the Euphrates was dry then.

The Euphrates is "symbolic" of the fall of Babylon. It was the Euphrates itself that toppled and overthrew the ancient capital of Babylon.

Now Jerusalem in Revelation is likened to the "Babylonian harlot".

The Euphrates River was Babylon's Achilles heel. And likewise the walls of Jerusalem would prove to be its Achilles heel too when Jewish engineers decided to create traps and pitfalls beneath the 75 foot tall Roman siege towers, and destabilized the foundations of the great wall of Jerusalem. Once those walls fell, it was all over for Jerusalem.

 

[interpreter]

The Euphrates is "symbolic" of the fall of Babylon. It was the Euphrates itself that toppled and overthrew the ancient capital of Babylon.

Now Jerusalem in Revelation is likened to the "Babylonian harlot".

The Euphrates River was Babylon's Achilles heel. And likewise the walls of Jerusalem would prove to be its Achilles heel too when Jewish engineers decided to create traps and pitfalls beneath the 75 foot tall Roman siege towers, and destabilized the foundations of the great wall of Jerusalem. Once those walls fell, it was all over for Jerusalem.

I knew you would say someting like that. But the Revelation was written in 95 or 96 AD, so there is no way it can refer to a 70 AD event. The 7 last plagues are poured out after the great tribulation of WW II. The Euphrates was dry on 9/11, and now we are dropping 100 pound "hailstones" on the 7th head of the beast.

 

[random person]

I knew you would say someting like that. But the Revelation was written in 95 or 96 AD, so there is no way it can refer to a 70 AD event. The 7 last plagues are poured out after the great tribulation of WW II. The Euphrates was dry on 9/11, and now we are dropping 100 pound "hailstones" on the 7th head of the beast.

Revelation was written while the temple still stood and there was still a Jerusalem in existence, while there was still Jewish persecutors throughout Asia Minor to contend with, and while the sixth king of Rome (namely Nero) sat upon his throne declaring himself God and worthy of worship and who instigated the first and worst persecutions of Christians in the Roman era. These did not exist in A.D. 95 or 96.

Nero's famed "Colossus," a 35-meter-tall (115 feet) golden statue of Nero as the Sun King at Domus Aurea (his sumptuous 200 acre pleasure palace)

 

[interpreter]

Revelation was written while the temple still stood and there was still a Jerusalem in existence, while there was still Jewish persecutors throughout Asia Minor to contend with, and while the sixth king of Rome (namely Nero) sat upon his throne declaring himself God and worthy of worship and who instigated the first and worst persecutions of Christians in the Roman era. These did not exist in A.D. 95 or 96.

Nero's famed "Colossus," a 35-meter-tall (115 feet) golden statue of Nero as the Sun King at Domus Aurea (his sumptuous 200 acre pleasure palace)

Hogwash. All of the early Church fathers say the Revelation was written in 95 or 96 AD. Several of the seven Asian churches that the Revelation was addressed to did not exist in 70 AD.

 

[ebedmelech]

Hogwash. All of the early Church fathers say the Revelation was written in 95 or 96 AD. Several of the seven Asian churches that the Revelation was addressed to did not exist in 70 AD.

This is not true. They take of on Iranaeus statement in "Against Heresies" and that statement is the text of the entire debate. Here it is:

We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign.

This statement has long been in debate, and will until Jesus returns. The ambiguity of the statement is based on WHEN John revealed antichrist.

My position is that John, in Revelation, does not say who the beast was because it was Nero, and therefore he veiled it in Revelation 13:18 using gematria. I agree that John is using gematria, so he cannot be accused of straight out saying it's Nero, who is Emperor at the time.

Here's a link to that position:

The Mark Of The Beast

I believe Revelation to be written between 66-69 AD.

 

[rdclmn72]

Meggido is a coastal valley that is big enough to contain a huge army by any standard.
Har-meggido is a mound in the valley.
The armies ascend to Jerusalem, take it, and before they can kill the survivors, Jesus returns.

 

[random person]

Hogwash. All of the early Church fathers say the Revelation was written in 95 or 96 AD. Several of the seven Asian churches that the Revelation was addressed to did not exist in 70 AD.

Man's traditions.

Vespasian Marched Through Megiddo in 67

 

[Rev20]

Hogwash. All of the early Church fathers say the Revelation was written in 95 or 96 AD. Several of the seven Asian churches that the Revelation was addressed to did not exist in 70 AD.

It appears they all jumped on Iraneaus' bandwagon, since there is no other external "evidence" (as in, NONE!) But they should have at least paid attention to the statement by Irenaeus two paragraphs earlier. This is paragraph 3:

"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign." [Roberts & Donaldson, Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 'Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 01: Apostolic Fathers,' Charles Scribner's Sons, 1913, Book V.30.3, pp.559-560]​

Note that most so-called "scholars" claim Irenaeus is stating that John saw the vision "almost in [Irenaeus'] day." Now look two paragraphs earlier:

"Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six;" [Roberts & Donaldson, Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 'Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 01: Apostolic Fathers,' Charles Scribner's Sons, 1913, Book V.30.1, p.558]​

Please explain to me how there can be ancient copies of a book, when the vision that inspired it was seen "almost in our day?" Even the original book could not be considered "ancient" under this scenario.

The following may explain part of what I call, "The Mystery of the Ancient Copies of a Recently-Written Book" (sounds like a Perry Mason thriller, yes?):

"After the text has been settled, according to the best judgment which can be formed, the work of translation remains; and that is, in this case, a matter of no small difficulty. Irenaeus, even in the original Greek, is often a very obscure writer. At times he expresses himself with remarkable clearness and terseness; but, upon the whole, his style is very involved and prolix. And the Latin version [the translation that contains Book V] adds to these difficulties of the original, by being itself of the most barbarous character. In fact, it is often necessary to make a conjectural re-translation of it into Greek, in order to obtain some inkling of what the author wrote. Dodwell supposes this Latin version to have been made about the end of the fourth century; but as Tertullian seems to have used it, we must rather place it in the beginning of the third. Its author is unknown, but he was certainly little qualified for his task. We have endeavoured to give as close and accurate a translation of the work as possible, but there are not a few passages in which a guess can only be made as to the probable meaning." [Roberts & Donaldson, 'Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 01: Apostolic Fathers,' Charles Scribner's Sons, 1913, Introductory Note, pp.311-312]​

There's your "evidence." LOL!

 

[Rev20]

Hogwash. . . Several of the seven Asian churches that the Revelation was addressed to did not exist in 70 AD.

That is misleading. All seven churches existed around AD 60 when there were nine churches in Asia. At that time a monstrous earthquake destroyed Laodicea, Hierapolis and Colossae. This is Tacitus on Laodicea:

"In the course of the same year [that Ummidius Quadratus died, AD60-61,] Laodicea, a celebrated city in Asia, was destroyed by an earthquake; and though Rome in so great a calamity contributed no kind of aid, it was soon rebuilt, and, by the internal resources of the inhabitants, recovered its former splendor." [Arthur Murphy, 'Tacitus Vol III,' Henry Colburn & Richard Bentley, 1830, Book XIV.xxvii, p.30]​

Laodicea quickly rebuilt (in a few years by some accounts,) making that the only time in history when the seven Churches in Asia were only those specifically mentioned in the Revelation.

So, some years before AD70, there existed exactly the seven churches in Asia mentioned in the Revelation, and no others. Maybe that is why John wrote "the" seven churches, rather than "seven of the" churches, or other variant indicating some, but not all.

One other point: the seven churches had to have been in existence about 6 years prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, since the beast, Nero, died in AD68, and he persecuted the saints for 42 months (Rev 13:5.) Further, it seems John would have mentioned Hierapolis and Colossae, if they still existed.

Therefore, I believe John saw the vision prior to AD65, but after Laodicea rebuilt from the great earthquake of AD60-61.