Aren't we all physically ill?

[probinson]

This is true. Every example in scripture speaks positively about those who believe God for healing. No where is doubt encouraged.

Indeed.

Unfortunately, humanism has crept into the church in a big way.

I am absolutely convinced that if Jesus Himself were to say to some of these folks, "Because of your unbelief", they'd rebuke Him.

It amazes me that Jesus' own disciples were chastised on multiple occasions for their "little faith". These are the guys that saw Jesus heal people, saw blind men receive their sight, saw Jesus walk on water, saw multitudes fed with a little boy's lunch, saw countless miracles wrought at the hands of Jesus... yet these guys had "little faith" according to Jesus on more than one occasion.

And then I think to myself, if those guys who saw all of those miracles with their own 2 eyes had "little faith", how much pride in oneself would someone have to have to suggest that they've never had "little faith"?

When Jesus' disciples heard they had little faith, they didn't become righteously indignant. They simply listened to the admonishment and learned from it. Humanism, OTOH, simply can't abide the thought that there might be something lacking, something that needs working on, an area where growth is needed. And so, you end up with all this strange theology that absolutely flies in the face of how Jesus, who was sent to show us the Father, dealt with sickness and disease.

 

[Boidae]

My wife has no disbelief in her healing, yet she has not been healed. There is no unconfessed sin in her life, yet she's not healed.

Apparently, God does tell us to wait.

 

[mourningdove~]

reps, I've found that's the best way.

Thanks, FoundInGrace.

The kind of healing being focused on, in this thread, appears largely to be 'physical',
but God does heal in oh so many other* ways also. PTL.

(*a discussion for another thread perhaps someday!)

 

[probinson]

My wife has no disbelief in her healing, yet she has not been healed. There is no unconfessed sin in her life, yet she's not healed.

Apparently, God does tell us to wait.

Boidae, I sympathize with your situation, and I've been praying for your wife's healing.

It's always more difficult when someone introduces a personal example like this into the conversation, because the last thing I want you to think is that I lack compassion for your situation. With that said, I cannot base my beliefs based upon your wife's circumstances, or anyone else's (and that would include my own) for that matter.

Why is your wife not healed? I don't know. I don't have all the answers. But I do know that in Hebrews 11, we're given a list of people who did not waver in their beliefs, even though they never saw the things promised. But the key here is that they were still living by faith when they died. Their circumstances didn't cause them to doubt. Even though they never saw the fulfillment, they still continue to believe.

There have been times in my own life when I've prayed and not seen the fulfillment of the promises. But I don't allow those circumstances to cause me to waver in what I believe. Just like those people in Hebrews 11, I want to stand firm in what I believe, regardless of my circumstances.

 

[lismore]

This resulted in quite a bit of pain for him, a trip to the ER, and weeks in a walking boot that caused him to miss almost the entire first week of school.

Hello

Sorry to hear what happened to your boy, about his injury and his need to seek medical help.

However on this thread it seems as if a lot of bombast is being given out by WOF members. Jesus always heals, Jesus never says wait, Jesus never says no, Jesus says have faith instead of the medicine.

 

[Frogster]

My wife has no disbelief in her healing, yet she has not been healed. There is no unconfessed sin in her life, yet she's not healed.

Apparently, God does tell us to wait.

Abraham sure waited, a loooong time for a son, and he is the father of our faith. Sarah's womb did not work, she needed healing for yearrrrrrs.

 

[Frogster]

Hello

Sorry to hear what happened to your boy, about his injury and his need to seek medical help.

However on this thread it seems as if a lot of bombast is being given out by WOF members. Jesus always heals, Jesus never says wait, Jesus never says no, Jesus says have faith instead of the medicine.

 

[Frogster]

I think that there is plenty of blame to go around. I agree that using that blame to manipulate others for personal gain is wrong. But avoiding a place of humility is equally wrong. Which of us is so perfect that we feel that we should be exempted from any possibility of blame or lack of faith ?

I think that we can't have it both ways. We either stand by grace which means that we admit that we have come up short or we argue that we have measured up. One thing is certain. We cannot place any blame upon God. If there is any blame to be placed , it is upon the people involved and not upon God who is perfect.

One other point. While everyone is busy being distracted by arguing about how they are not wrong , the thing that gets lost in the shuffle is the need for us to humbly seek God for the answer. That is not a shell game that I want to participate in.

I am comfortable admitting that my faith is lacking many times and looking at the possibility that I have come up short in a given situation. Both when I am the one doing the praying and when I am the one receiving prayer.

well..to blame God, is different than understanding that some things in life, even the bad, God allows. The philippians were told they had faith, yet called to suffer, so faith is not a magic wand over suffering.

but it is true, the preacher never gets blamed for his lack of peter like faith, usually the ill person gets faulted.

 

[probinson]

Hello

Sorry to hear what happened to your boy, about his injury and his need to seek medical help.

Thanks, but that incident was a few years ago. He's perfectly fine now.

However on this thread it seems as if a lot of bombast is being given out by WOF members. Jesus always heals, Jesus never says wait, Jesus never says no, Jesus says have faith instead of the medicine.

Despite some petulant attempts to make it appear like I'm just pushing WoF beliefs on people, the reason I carry the WoF moniker is because I feel that it most closely represents what I believe. However, there are quite likely areas where I would not completely agree with my WoF friends.

With that in mind, I can't answer for other WoF people, but if you have a specific question about what I believe, I'd be happy to answer it.

 

[Frogster]

Most people do not think in terms of blame. This is just something you are introducing into the conversation. Very rarely have I heard anyone say "it is your fault healing did not come".
We cannot really blame anyone for sickness any more than we can blame someone for rain getting us wet. It happens as a course of nature. If you try to open an umbrella and it does not open, you still cannot blame the umbrella owner for the rain. It is the rain that is the offender, not the broken umbrella. So too, it is the sickness that is the offender, not the failed attempt at effecting healing.
We need to try to edify each other... not introduce blame and doubt.
peace...

just out of curiousity, you have never heard people say, so and so is still ill, or ill, because they dion't have enough faith?

 

[JimB]

just out of curiousity, you have never heard people say, so and so is still ill, or ill, because they dion't have enough faith?

Of course I have heard people say that a sufferer is not healed because they lack faith. It’s a too common accusation. This is usually an admission of failure—like saying, “You were not healed for reasons I do not understand; therefore it must be your fault (because I, of course, have the faith to remove mountains and uproot trees and create universes).” I have often wondered why the blame is stuck on the poor sufferer rather than the man of faith who prayed for the healing? I guess ours is not to question why, ours is just to do ... then die.

 

[Boidae]

Boidae, I sympathize with your situation, and I've been praying for your wife's healing.

It's always more difficult when someone introduces a personal example like this into the conversation, because the last thing I want you to think is that I lack compassion for your situation. With that said, I cannot base my beliefs based upon your wife's circumstances, or anyone else's (and that would include my own) for that matter.

Why is your wife not healed? I don't know. I don't have all the answers. But I do know that in Hebrews 11, we're given a list of people who did not waver in their beliefs, even though they never saw the things promised. But the key here is that they were still living by faith when they died. Their circumstances didn't cause them to doubt. Even though they never saw the fulfillment, they still continue to believe.

There have been times in my own life when I've prayed and not seen the fulfillment of the promises. But I don't allow those circumstances to cause me to waver in what I believe. Just like those people in Hebrews 11, I want to stand firm in what I believe, regardless of my circumstances.

Thank you for your response. My wife will continue to live by faith as she knows that God is near her at all times. Her faith has not wavered.

My point was that someone can have all the spiritual things covered and still not be healed. God does tell us to wait, even though some may not believe that. My wife may end up waiting till she dies and has a glorified body to be cured of this horrible disease. She has faith that one day she will be healed and it is all in His timing.

Sometimes, we have to just wait till we die our physical death, and in our new bodies till we're healed, so I guess in a way those that say God always heals is correct, just that their timing is off as to when that happens.

 

[murjahel]

Sickness is universal. All of us experience sickness. All of us, barring the rapture, will someday die. Yet, when sickness comes, why are we not all healed? We wonder and question.

No matter ow wonderful our spiritual level is, we have roughly ‘three score and ten’, or ‘fourscore’ years.

Psalm 90:10 (KJV)
10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.


Remember, there are a number of CAUSES of sickness, so, likewise, there are a number of reasons that healing does not come. Sometimes God brings sickness, plague, and death.

Sometimes the devil brings those. Man is often the culprit of the ailments. The curse upon mankind is most frequently the cause. The spiritual lapses can also bring sickness, disease, even death.

Satan is the author of sickness and disease. Man is subject to sickness due to the temptation of the devil upon Eve. When Eve, and then Adam, sinned, the devil had accomplished making immortal mankind to become mortal
and frail.


Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Mankind did die spiritually that day. Mortality of the body claimed their bodies also in time. Corruption set in, the curse went into effect. The devil probably felt victorious. Satan was the originator. Jesus came and claimed VICTORY over the devil.

Acts 10:38 (KJV)
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


Since we are promised to do the ‘works’ that Jesus did, and even ‘greater works’, then we have authority to also speak healing to ALL that are OPPRESSED by the devil. So, why are some that are ‘oppressed by the devil’ not healed? Satan needs God’s permission to oppress Christians. There is a ‘hedge of protection’ round about Christians. Job was a believer, and yet, God gave the devil permission to afflict Job.

If Job had one of us there to undo that affliction on the first day, would it have happened? No ! For God has a trial time planned for Job. Until Job’s trial time was accomplished, which is estimated to have been about two years, the healing would not come. So, in others being oppressed by the devil, we need a word of knowledge, and word of wisdom, to know
WHEN the oppression of the devil will be broken.

The curse of sin is another cause of sickness, disease, and death. The curse is ever present, and even the righteous are still ‘bodily’ under the curse. The righteous still bald, age, wrinkle, get sickness, and even die. Some teach that the righteous should not get sick, but if that were true, they also should not age, nor get gray hair.


The body of all of us is still under the curse. Our spirits have been made alive, made eternal, So, some that are sick, are not sick due to personal sin, but are sick due to the origingal sin.

John 9:2-3 (KJV)
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.


God had a plan, and until that plan came to fruition, no one would have overruled the sovereign God as to when this healing would occur.


Sickness does not always equate with personal sins, sometimes, the curse from the original sin allows the sickness. Until the curse is removed from the body, which takes place for the saints at the resurrection time, we can still suffer effects of the curse upon the body.

Romans 8:21-25 (KJV)
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.


God can override the curse’s effect on the body. These are partial overrides, not complete. Though we may be healed, the body continues to age, sweat, wrinkle, and move towards death.

Paul eventually died. John, had been put into boiling oil, and he lived, but still later died. Lazarus was resurrected, but 30 years later his body still died. The curse is not permanently, nor totally removed until the day of the rapture/resurrection.

We need ... with the gift of healings and of miracles ... need the gift of word of knowledge, and of wisdom, to know what God is doing, and what He wants done. Some may be called home by God... that is a healing that takes place with removal from this diseased body... it is still healing. It is far more of a healing than having 'cancer' healed, but still in a body that ages, wrinkles, sweats, and balds...

 

[vitaminC]

Hello

Sorry to hear what happened to your boy, about his injury and his need to seek medical help.

However on this thread it seems as if a lot of bombast is being given out by WOF members. Jesus always heals, Jesus never says wait, Jesus never says no, Jesus says have faith instead of the medicine.

As you point out , people are making a lot of assertions about what God is saying and doing. Let's talk about the basis for these assertions. What I see is that people will assign to God a lot of things that they really have very little evidence or good reason to assign to God. All without having a very open or objective mind about the matter.

For example , a person prays that they will be healed and is not healed and so they conclude that Jesus said to wait. Did Jesus really say to wait ? or was there just silence and based on the lack of results , they assume that must be what Jesus is saying ? Another example , where is it that Jesus said that it is wrong to take medicine ? Is this in the scripture or is someone claiming some divine word from God that they are delivering to
us ?

I have seen on this very message board threads about people with visions of heaven and there seems to be no shortage of words from God that people receive. We can debate whether they are true words or false words. But let's clarify here. Are people saying that God literally told them to wait ? Or are they saying that based upon the fact that they did not get healed , they have therefore figured out that God is saying to wait ? One is an opinion. Something they think they have figured out. The other is a prophecy or word from God. Or someone could simply admit the limits of their knowledge and say they do not know if God is saying to wait or if there is some other reason.

The same thing could be said of the scripture itself. Simply because something makes sense to me or I feel very strongly about something does not make that therefore the correct interpretation of scripture. This applies to all sides of the issue. There can be no appeal to the authority of scripture if people simply insert what they want to believe and make speculations to be fact because of the silence of scripture on a matter.

 

[probinson]

The same thing could be said of the scripture itself. simply because something makes sense to me or I feel very strongly about something does not make that therefore the correct interpretation of scripture. This applies to all sides of the issue. There can be no apepal to the authority of scripture if people simply insert what they want to believe and make speculations to be fact because of the silence of scripture on a matter.

Very well put.

 

[probinson]

Thank you for your response. My wife will continue to live by faith as she knows that God is near her at all times. Her faith has not wavered.

Please forgive me if my prior post made it sound like I thought your wife was wavering in her faith. Please know that was not my intention.

My point was that someone can have all the spiritual things covered and still not be healed. God does tell us to wait, even though some may not believe that. My wife may end up waiting till she dies and has a glorified body to be cured of this horrible disease. She has faith that one day she will be healed and it is all in His timing.

The main reason I don't buy the "God told me to wait for my healing" doctrine is because there simply is no example in scripture where someone requested healing and was told to wait. I don't disagree that there are times when we will have to "wait" for things, but I see no examples of that as it pertains to healing anywhere in scripture.

Sometimes, we have to just wait till we die our physical death, and in our new bodies till we're healed, so I guess in a way those that say God always heals is correct, just that their timing is off as to when that happens.

I'd disagree with this. I don't think we're "healed" when we die. As you said, we get NEW bodies. The old body is not "healed". It passes away and we are given new bodies.

 

[Boidae]

Please forgive me if my prior post made it sound like I thought your wife was wavering in her faith. Please know that was not my intention.



The main reason I don't buy the "God told me to wait for my healing" doctrine is because there simply is no example in scripture where someone requested healing and was told to wait. I don't disagree that there are times when we will have to "wait" for things, but I see no examples of that as it pertains to healing anywhere in scripture.



I'd disagree with this. I don't think we're "healed" when we die. As you said, we get NEW bodies. The old body is not "healed". It passes away and we are given new bodies.

I say wait, because if it hasn't happened when you pray for it and your pretty sure that you have all the spiritual aspects covered, then you're waiting for your healing as it may not be on your timeline. I'm not sure what else to call it other than waiting as it seems like waiting to me. If I ask for a sandwich and it comes to me 20 minutes from the time that I asked for it, I had to wait for that sandwich to get to me. Horrible analogy, but the best one I could come up with.

I guess I call it healed, because that is what makes sense to me. We're given new bodies, but they don't have the old illnesses in them. Just like when you are given a new knee, you were healed by given something new to replace something that was ill.

The above to paragraphs are how I understand and explain things differently then you might.

 

[vitaminC]

just out of curiousity, you have never heard people say, so and so is still ill, or ill, because they dion't have enough faith?

I have heard it. But those of us who are not novices in the faith should be mature and experienced enough to not react to such assertions with an unthinking knee jerk reaction. We could have a discussion and ask the person why they make such an assertion. Maybe they are claiming a word of knowledge about it ? One of the questions which I ask is on what basis to we rule out a lack of faith ?

It is irresponsible to jump to the conclusion that it must be a lack of faith , but even more irresponsible to jump to the conclusion that it cannot be a lack of faith.

Because a person testifies that they have faith , do we simply accept that testimony as Gospel truth. Or is faith a quantity that is difficult to measure from outward appearance both for the outside observer and for the person making the claim.

Faith is usually made more clear over time and under testing. I don't claim to be able to objectively and accurately measure my own level of faith. I am frequently surprised at my own lack of faith or sometimes surprised that I had more faith than I realized. For myself and for others whom I have know well enough to get a glimpse into their faith walk , faith has it's ups and downs. There are times of doubt and times of certainty.

Anyway , I think that it is important that the Christian community develop our doctrine from things that are certain such as the scripture and not based upon what someone has " figured out " from either their experience or lack of experience.

I am not naive enough to accept that everyone who says that they have faith , really does. Some do and some don't.

 

[Gospel Guy]

You were not healed for reasons I do not understand; therefore it must be your fault

Well, there are only a few options as to why someone whould not be healed...

1) God refuses to honor what Jesus did at the Cross and is withholding His power to Heal (in spite of His Word stating where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty... from whatever it is you need liberating from for the Holy Ghost is the very Glory of God)

Believing this is accusing the Lord (satan loves it when people accuse God of being the problem by refusing to heal) of not being willing to honor what Jesus has done and will put you in a position of causing the Lord to allow you to reap the unbelief you are sowing since He is not mocked, what you sow IS what you reap.

2) satan is stronger than God and is blocking your healing.

3) You are abusing your body by refusing to present your body as a living sacrifice unto the Lord so you refuse to eat right, make sure you get enough nourishment (gonna have to take some suppliments since eating good alone doesn't provide enough nourishment), get plenty of rest, and you may be putting known carcinogens in your body (food laden with additives. cigarettes, drugs, alcohol, etc)

4) The Bible is very clear that God's people are destroyed for a) lack of knowledge, b) lack of vision (lacking revelation of what Jesus has purchased for us) c) Not rightly discerning the Body of Christ... which is two fold speaking of His physical body that took your sickness when He went to the Cross... and His Body in the earth today (cannot be harboring ill feelings towards other Christians)

5) Insisting upon relying on the arm of the flesh (wisdom and ability of mankind) above what God has said in His Word in thinking we need to go to the doctor first and use prayer based on God's Word as a last resort.

6) Lack of understanding that our Body (as well as our entire lives) is the Temple of the Holy Spirit... living a worldly lifestyle is telling God to go mind His own business and leave us alone...

I have plenty of experience in physical healing having not been sick in the past 25+ years (that's right... no doctors needed here). I have spent a lot of time mediating on what God says concerning healing, speaking what God says concerning healing, teaching others what God says concerning healing... and it works great for me because all I have is plan A... God's ability to keep me well as I manage my body responsibly and not mistreat it as it is His property.

Now, I have experienced satan's attacks against my physical health by experiencing all sorts of strange pains and feelings in different places in my body... and based on Mark 4:14-20 I recognize those as attacks by satan to try and choke God's promises out of my thoughts, speech, and actions and I've never had any symptoms stay for more than just a few moments as they are in fact lying manifestations designed by satan to get me to believe them in place of believing God's promises thru which I access His divine nature.

So, over the years I've become so engrained in divine heath... I know and understand that I'm IN CHRIST and in God's Kingdom... sickness and disease is actually illegal.... obama care is a none issue for me since I have no need for doctors just like Jesus didn't need any doctors when He walked the earth!

 

[FoundInGrace]

Ant yet Jesus never said no or wait.

Jesus didnt heal the guys daughter the second He was asked either though.. not to quibble but the guy ended up waiting for ages. you can say Jesus never said wait but Jesus had every power and aithority to heal the daughter right then but Jesus obviously decided not to and the guy had to wait until Jesus decided to heal and that wait for that guy must have seemed like forever.

To me it looks like waiting.

Its ok if it looks different to you.

Gods timing isnt always ours, in fact often isnt ours.
If God doesnt heal on my schedule I still believe God heals. It just means He has a greater plan in mind and that He is God and I'm not and I can live with that most of the time without having a tantrum that God needs to get on my program lol..

If God is obviously saying wait and the reality of life like waiting for healing was a scary reality for the guy and his daughter with Jesus then trusting God knows what Hes doing is all you can do. And God does give us help to hang in there, He always does.