Are you sure it isn't three Gods?

[doubtingmerle]

Whenever I hear of Christians referring to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it sure sounds to me like three Gods that work in perfect harmony. Is that what you believe? If not, how does your faith markedly differ from the person who believes in three Gods that work in perfect harmony.

 

[Wgw]

Whenever I hear of Christians referring to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it sure sounds to me like three Gods that work in perfect harmony. Is that what you believe?

No.

If not, how does your faith markedly differ from the person who believes in three Gods that work in perfect harmony.

Define "Gods" and "harmony."

 

[peepnklown]

Whenever I hear of Christians referring to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it sure sounds to me like three Gods that work in perfect harmony. Is that what you believe? If not, how does your faith markedly differ from the person who believes in three Gods that work in perfect harmony.

This is a vast subject depending on how far you want to go down the rabbit hole.
We could talk about the literary device of a singular item referred to in the plural (plural majesty). This device was found in paleo/classical Hebrew, ancient forms of Aramiac, Akkadin and Ugratic.
We can talk about how the Trinity doctrine was not conclusive until the late 4th century.
We can talk about the conflicting views of the early Christian sects that did not believe in the Trinity doctrine.
We can talk about the origins (Hebrew) of the Holy Spirit which could have been misunderstood by the writers of the Greek Scriptures (Gospels).

 

[doubtingmerle]

Define "Gods" and "harmony."

First I probably should have said 3 "gods" not "Gods", since the capital letter is used only for a proper name.

For the definition of "gods" and "harmony", the definition in any common dictionary would be fine for our purposes. I mean the same thing as people generally mean when they say "gods" and when they say "harmony".

 

[ChetSinger]

Whenever I hear of Christians referring to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it sure sounds to me like three Gods that work in perfect harmony. Is that what you believe? If not, how does your faith markedly differ from the person who believes in three Gods that work in perfect harmony.

Christian trinitarian belief originated from a Jewish binitarian belief that was widespread in the 1st century. It never meant more than one YHWH to those Jews, and it doesn't mean more than one God to today's Christians.

If you're confused, perhaps you've heard conflicting statements from Christians. I suggest consulting orthodox sources such as the Catholic encyclopedia if you want a definitive explanation: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

 

[Alla27]

Christian trinitarian belief originated from a Jewish binitarian belief that was widespread in the 1st century. It never meant more than one YHWH to those Jews, and it doesn't mean more than one God to today's Christians.

If you're confused, perhaps you've heard conflicting statements from Christians. I suggest consulting orthodox sources such as the Catholic encyclopedia if you want a definitive explanation: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

OK, there is one YHWH according to Old Testament. But there are Heavenly Father, Son and the Holy Spirit according to New Testament.
According to NT (see Hebrews 1) Father calls Son by word "God". Son also calls Father by word "God" according to NT.
Now a question: who is this YHWH? Is He Heavenly Father or Son? or the Holy Spirit?
We know that Son said that He has His God and His Father. If YHWH is Son then Son is God of OT and then God of OT YHWH has His God and His Father. Then what is the name of Heavenly Father?

 

[AlexDTX]

This is a topic that has a long history of controversy. My answer will probably add to the controversy, but everyone needs to be fully persuaded in his own mind. This is how I see it.

First, I believe in the Shema, that is the declaration of Deuteronomy 6:4

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: (Shema, y'srael, adonai elohenu, adonai echad)

As a Christian, when Jesus refers to the Father, I do not believe he is making a Trinitarian reference. I believe he is merely referring to God as a whole as his father, because he was speaking as a man. Does that mean, then, that I do not believe in the Trinity? Contrariwise, I do believe in the Trinity. Do I think that someone must believe in the Trinity to be saved? Not at all, however, understanding the trinity helps in understanding the intention of God in making mankind. So why do I believe in the Trinity? Because it explains our humanity.

Gen. 1:26 says: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." And Paul told the Thessalonians:

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thes. 5:23).

In my opinion, theologians mistakenly call humans tri-part beings, implying that our body, soul and spirit are parts of the whole of who we are. I disagree. I believe that humans made in the image of God are 3 people in one, just as the Great I Am is 3 persons in one. In the godhead there is an order of submission. That which is called the Word or Son submits to that which is called the Father. That which is called the Spirit submits to the Son. In our creation, our soul was to submit to our spirit, and the body was to submit to the soul, and our spirit was to submit to God. The Fall caused it to be turned around. Instead our body became supreme as our soul submitted to the body, and the spirit became cut off from God and submerged under the soul.

I have been separated body, soul, and spirit. I was in bed. My body was lying down, and my soul sat up out of my body because my spirit had gone across the room. My point of view switched from one to another depending on where my attention was. I have seen this in my dreams, too, where I am one place then I see myself in another place. I believe this one reason we have conversations in our minds.

So, to answer the question: there is only one God even though He exists in 3 persons. And to add to the complexity, He became a man and exists in that man called Jesus, who exists in all who put their trust in Him through the new birth.

 

[Alla27]

I believe that humans made in the image of God are 3 people in one, just as the Great I Am is 3 persons in one. In the godhead there is an order of submission. That which is called the Word or Son submits to that which is called the Father. That which is called the Spirit submits to the Son. In our creation, our soul was to submit to our spirit, and the body was to submit to the soul, and our spirit was to submit to God. The Fall caused it to be turned around. Instead our body became supreme as our soul submitted to the body, and the spirit became cut off from God and submerged under the soul

So, the Spirit submits to the Son. The Son submits to the Father.
Man is created in image of God: our body(compare to the Spirit) submits to the sole(compare to the Son). Our sole submits to the spirit(compare to the Father).
But according to the Bible the Spirit has no flesh and He submits to the Son who is in flesh. Opposite of a creation of man according to you.
Why?

 

[AlexDTX]

So, the Spirit submits to the Son. The Son submits to the Father.
Man is created in image of God: our body(compare to the Spirit) submits to the sole(compare to the Son). Our sole submits to the spirit(compare to the Father).
But according to the Bible the Spirit has no flesh and He submits to the Son who is in flesh. Opposite of a creation of man according to you.
Why?

Because the Son is a dual entity: He is the Word, the second member of the Godhead made flesh, which means he is also a created being with a created body, soul and spirit. According to 1 Corinthians 15 God as a whole has submitted Himself to the man Christ Jesus (1 Cor. 15:26-28). The man rules the universe as co-equal to the godhead, although when all is said and done the man will also be submitted to the God.

I can understand why you ask the question. Since you state that you are Mormon, then if you believe LDS doctrine, you are an eternal spirit who will one day rule your own world, at least your husband will. But here is where I disagree. There is only one eternal spirit, that is YHWH. He has no beginning nor end. The rest of us are created spirits with a beginning, but no end. Jesus was both the eternal Spirit with no beginning nor end as well as a created spirit with a beginning but no end.

If we were all eternal spirits with no beginning nor end, then it would be impossible for us to sin. Just as by nature a parallel set of lines can not cross, because forever in both directions they remain parallel, only a segment can turn. We are segments with a beginning, thus we can turn. With Jesus, the eternal spirit within him was his constant guide to not sin, but as a created spirit, he could have sinned. We are justified by the man, not God. The man proved it was possible for the created to be obedient to the eternal. Thus by one man all have sinned, likewise by one man all are justified. This is why he has been given the equal position with the God.

 

[Alla27]

Because the Son is a dual entity: He is the Word, the second member of the Godhead made flesh, which means he is also a created being with a created body, soul and spirit.

OK. Then a soul of a man who is created in the image of God also has to have a dual entity. Otherwise a man is not created in the image of God.
So, does a soul also have a dual entity ? or a man is not created in the image of God?

 

[AlexDTX]

OK. Then a soul of a man who is created in the image of God also has to have a dual entity. Otherwise a man is not created in the image of God.
So, does a soul also have a dual entity ? or a man is not created in the image of God?

I don't agree with your conclusion. We are made in the image of God in the trinitarian sense, not a duality. The Godhead is YHWH the Father, YHWH the Word and YHWH the Spirit. We are Man the spirit, Man the soul and Man the body. The duality I referred to was in Jesus who 6 in one: Jesus the Father, Jesus the Word, Jesus the Spirit, Jesus the Man with a created spirit, Jesus the Man with a created soul and Jesus the Man with a created body.

 

[Alla27]

I don't agree with your conclusion. We are made in the image of God in the trinitarian sense, not a duality.

Who says?

 

[ChetSinger]

OK, there is one YHWH according to Old Testament. But there are Heavenly Father, Son and the Holy Spirit according to New Testament.
According to NT (see Hebrews 1) Father calls Son by word "God". Son also calls Father by word "God" according to NT.
Now a question: who is this YHWH? Is He Heavenly Father or Son? or the Holy Spirit?
We know that Son said that He has His God and His Father. If YHWH is Son then Son is God of OT and then God of OT YHWH has His God and His Father. Then what is the name of Heavenly Father?

I think we both agree that in Judaism YHWH is the name of God (if LDS teaching disagrees with this, please let me know).

Christian theology is based in part on a binitarian belief that Judaism had until the 2nd century. That is, YHWH can be simultaneously both a spirit in heaven and a physical presence here on earth. But both are YHWH. Since in Christian theology these correspond to the Father and Son, both can be called YHWH.

Here is a passage where early church fathers taught that the Father and Son appear simultaneously and are both called YHWH. It's Genesis 19:24, describing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah:

Then YHWH rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from YHWH out of heaven.

They (early church fathers) taught that the YHWH in heaven was the Father and that the YHWH on earth was the Son (prior to being incarnated as Jesus of Nazareth). They included Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Ignatius, and Cyprian.

I suppose this may be quite different from LDS teaching. But does it help clear up how Christianity had used the name YHWH?

 

[Alla27]

I think we both agree that in Judaism YHWH is the name of God (if LDS teaching disagrees with this, please let me know).

thank you for your response.
According to the Old Testament YHWH is God.

Christian theology is based in part on a binitarian belief that Judaism had until the 2nd century. That is, YHWH can be simultaneously both a spirit in heaven and a physical presence here on earth. But both are YHWH.

According to the Bible YHWH said: I AM that I AM". According to the Bible YHWH created heaven and earth.
According to the Bible the Son Jesus Christ said to the Pharisees: "Before Abraham was I AM"
According to the Bible the Son Jesus Christ created heaven and earth.
From this I may conclude that the Son Jesus Christ and YHWH is the same person.
Now, according to the Bible(NT) The Son Jesus Christ who is YHWH said that He has His God and our God, His Father and our Father. It is God Heavenly Father.
From this I may conclude that the Son who is Jesus Christ who is I AM, who is YHWH, who is Creator of heaven and earth claimed that our God is also His God, our Heavenly Father is also His Heavenly Father.
I repeat: God YHWH(Creator of the worlds) claims that He has His God and His Father. God has His God.
What is the name of YHWH's/Christ's God and Father according to the Bible?

 

[doubtingmerle]

I don't agree with your conclusion. We are made in the image of God in the trinitarian sense, not a duality. The Godhead is YHWH the Father, YHWH the Word and YHWH the Spirit.

So in the Old Testament when it refers to God is it referring to God the Father or the whole Godhead? You seem to suggest that it is referring to the whole Godhead.

​

OK, and then what does the word God mean in John 3:16?

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.​

Christians have long taught that this says the Father sent the Son. Do you disagree? You seem to be saying that it says that the Godhead sent one part of the Godhead.

We are Man the spirit, Man the soul and Man the body.

I don't see it quite the way you do, but anyway, is this the concept you have of God: The Father is one part of God, Jesus is another part of God, and the Spirit is another part of God?

 

[ChetSinger]

...What is the name of YHWH's/Christ's God and Father according to the Bible?

He's YHWH, too. Count the two YHWHs in this verse:

Then YHWH (the Son) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from YHWH (the Father) out of heaven.

The parentheses, added by me, represent commentary from the early church fathers.

 

[Alla27]

He's YHWH, too. Count the two YHWHs in this verse:

Please, show me where I can see in the Bible that there are two YHWHs.
please, tell me what book and chapter is this verse from?

 

[katerinah1947]

Whenever I hear of Christians referring to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it sure sounds to me like three Gods that work in perfect harmony. Is that what you believe? If not, how does your faith markedly differ from the person who believes in three Gods that work in perfect harmony.

Hi,

The way I deal with this, needs to take into account a Begotten Son, and a Sent Holy Spirit, Who Jesus Defends and is spoken of as causing David to speak in Psalms 110:1, among other places.

God has always been Trinitarian, internally to Himself. So are we. At one time God is all there was, apart from nothingness, apart from that nothingness which is also blackness.

One day God decides to beget two sons, but only one is called that, the other is called The Sent One, The Holy Spirit.

God begat His Son, and similarly God begat His Spirit, but He is called Sent.

Now, this part is hard. What did God use apart from Himself? Nothing. He used Himself. In my world Jesus is an exact Duplicate of His Father, but so Is The Holy Spirit.

In my world, only Godhood is not parsed, thus they all share that, simultaneously, at will.

LOVE,

 

[Alla27]

Hi,
God has always been Trinitarian, internally to Himself. So are we. At one time God is all there was, apart from nothingness, apart from that nothingness which is also blackness.

Are you quoting the Bible? please, verse, chapter, book.

God begat His Son, and similarly God begat His Spirit, but He is called Sent.

Where does it say in the Bible that God begat His Spirit? If God begat His Spirit then Jesus Christ is not the only begotten Son.
God begat Jesus in Mary's body. Where did God begat His Spirit?

Now, this part is hard. What did God use apart from Himself? Nothing.

please, verse, chapter, book from the Bible.

He used Himself. In my world Jesus is an exact Duplicate of His Father, but so Is The Holy Spirit.
In my world, only Godhood is not parsed, thus they all share that, simultaneously, at will.
LOVE,

If Jesus is exact duplicate of His Father then I may conclude that His Father has body - flesh and bone. Right?
Then I may conclude that the Holy Spirit has body - flesh and bone. Right?
Is this what "EXACT Duplicate" means in your world?

 

[katerinah1947]

Are you quoting the Bible? please, verse, chapter, book.

Hi,

I am quoting The Bible and I am quoting from an approved Private set of Revelations, that I was involved in.

Private Revelations if approved as valid, by a Spiritual Director, are allowed to share. My Spiritual Director was Father Matt. Also, all other priests agree so far, with his work with me on that issue. The approval came in early, 2008.

Gabriel was in three of them, but always God was first, then Gabiel later, and upon departing, they probably left together, but, I did not really notice, as my primary focus was on God The Father, each time.

Where does it say in the Bible that God begat His Spirit? If God begat His Spirit then Jesus Christ is not the only begotten Son.
God begat Jesus in Mary's body. Where did God begat His Spirit?

please, verse, chapter, book from the Bible.

The Bible does not say all that. It is from personal experiences, with God, over more than two years time. Some of it with Each Of Them.

If Jesus is exact duplicate of His Father then I may conclude that His Father has body - flesh and bone. Right?

Then I may conclude that the Holy Spirit has body - flesh and bone. Right?

No, that is not correct.

Is this what "EXACT Duplicate" means in your world?

No.

In energy form, in Essence Form, in God Form. In that form they are exactly the same.

It is in Essence, meaning what they are, and in power and magnitude and in God.

In Essence All Three Persons of The Trinity, are equal in power and magnitude, and looks, plus God.

God is felt, rather than seen. They were indistinguishable to me in that form.

I am leaving out one detail. It is the Royal blue stripe, as that has meaning, but I don't know what it means.

LOVE,