Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

[1an]

Actually, I am pretty confident he did, eventually. He does not say otherwise. Redemption is a theme from the beginning.

Redemption is a theme from the beginning.

People are talking about infection. That was Satan.
.

 

[chad kincham]

Let me try again, then. If, as some of you seem to think, God did not actively cause anything but (as the Deists like to think) just started it all going, knowing full well ahead of doing so (by foreknowledge) that this and that would happen, then why did he go ahead and do it? Does that not then logically mean that in some respect, yes, he did indeed cause it?

The logicians, scientists and philosophers admit, even happily claim, poetically, that "the seeds of all we see, experience and are, and of all that is, were sown in the big bang". Cause and effect rules. Everything that First Cause has caused, is effect, including our wills and choices.

The cause of damnation is the freewill that allowed the choice of obedience or sin, the effect is that Adam chose sin.

 

[RickReads]

You may need to edit that, it’s unclear what exact point you are making.

But the fact that the Calvinist version of God decreed the fall of man into sin and damnation from the founding of the world, makes predestinating most of mankind to be damned - after he caused them to need saving - even more heinous and sadistic.

Fortunately, that’s not what happened.

God did not cause but because He is God He knew. Omniscience.

And his point is perfectly clear. No need to edit.

 

[RickReads]

Calvinism is so far off in their use of Romans 9 as a proof text of election of some individuals to salvation and predestination to hell of other individuals, that it’s incredible.

The potter and clay that Paul is quoting, comes from Jeremiah 18 - the potter and clay chapter.

The potter and clay, and Jacob and Esau, is about NATIONS not individuals.

As Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: two nations are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)

And Israel, the nation from Jacob is the clay on the potters wheel, not any one person.

The Potter and the Clay.

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Jer 18:6 O house of ISRAEL , cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

We also find in Jeremiah 18 that when the potter speaks blessing over any NATION and they turn evil, God takes back his blessing and punishes that nation, and also when the potter considers a nation a vessel fit for destruction and they repent, He changes His mind about punishing them.

No nation is predestined to destruction.


Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to DESTROY it;

Jer 18:8 If that NATION, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

Jer 18:10 If it do EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will REPENT of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.


This is the opposite of the reformed doctrine predestination narrative. The fate of the nations is dependent on what they do, not on being predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, and the Romans 9 potter and clay passage is not about predestination of individuals to hell, or to salvation.

God will have mercy on whom He will - and His will is He has mercy whenever there is repentance, and takes back His mercy, if they turn to doing evil.

Your verses do not disprove predestination, they only give some implication regarding God`s criteria for the elect.

 

[chad kincham]

Romans 9:13 Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated.

Great example of wrong proof-texting by Calvinists, because this is a well known Jewish idiom meaning to love less, not to literally hate.

This fact is evident in the passage where Jesus said unless we hate mother and father, we aren’t worthy to be His disciples - He’s saying we must love our parents much less than we love Him.

Jesus told us to love our neighbor and even our enemies, so he obviously wouldn’t tell us to hate our parents and break a commandment to honor our parents.

Here’s Albert Barnes on that:

Jacob Have I hated - This does not mean any positive hatred; but that he had preferred Jacob, and had withheld from Esau those privileges and blessings which he had conferred on the posterity of Jacob. This is explained in Mal 1:3,” And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness;” compare Jer 49:17-18; Eze 35:6. It was common among the Hebrews to use the terms “love” and “hatred” in this comparative sense, where the former implied strong positive attachment, and the latter, not positive hatred, but merely a less love, or the withholding of the expressions of affection;

 

[chad kincham]

Your verses do not disprove predestination, they only give some implication regarding God`s criteria for the elect.

It proves that the potter and clay isn’t about individuals, but nations.

Read it again.

 

[chad kincham]

[

 

[RickReads]

It proves that the potter and clay isn’t about individuals, but nations.

Read it again.

Yes, except for Romans 9, where Paul applies the principle to the whole world and breaks it down to two kinds of people.

 

[chad kincham]

How can I get my heart to the place where it truly desires Christ and wants to hate sin. I truly do desire to be in that state of heart. What must I do or do I just leave it to God to either save or damn me?

Scripture says faith comes by hearing the word of God Romans 10:17

If you hear the word and believe Jesus is God’s Son who died on a cross in our place, for the forgiveness of sins, you have the freewill choice to receive Jesus to become a child of God, John 1:12 or reject Jesus, as the elect Israelites, who were His own that He came for did, in John 1:11.

To become a child of God, you must receive Jesus, (John 1:12),by asking Him into your heart (Revelation 3:20), where He then dwells (Ephesians 3:17and Colossians 1:27), and ask Him to forgive your sins so they are forgiven (Acts 3:19 and Acts 20:21), and call upon His name to be saved Romans 10:13.


Prayer for salvation: Lord Jesus, I believe you died for my sins and rose again - please come into my heart, forgive my sins, save my soul, and make me a new creation. In your name, amen.

Once you’re a new creation, and old things pass away, you won’t want to live a sinful lifestyle anymore.

Blessings.

 

[chad kincham]

Would you call him hypocritical to tell us "thou shalt not kill", and to love our enemies, but command Israel to wipe out whole nations, and by himself to wipe out all the inhabitants of the earth but a few, with a flood? We don't operate on his level. (A somewhat humorous sidenote: I have noticed, particularly in debating with Atheists, but also liberal Christians, that they will deny a doctrine, saying that God would be hypocritical to say (think, command, whatever) this or that, if he himself doesn't abide by it, but they seem to have no problem with a Congress that doesn't have to abide by the regulations they impose on the general public.)

God differentiates between the authority He gives us to organize into governments and punish evil doers civilly with judges, courts and law enforcement officers, and martially with armies, that he authorizes to use deadly force in defense of nation or city - and individuals who are not given the authority to judge someone worthy of death, that a judge or General is given.

It’s not a contradiction for God to tell individuals not to kill their neighbor, while at the same time authorizing governments to use deadly force against law breakers doing evil, or invading armies, etc.

See Romans 13.

 

[Dave L]

Since there’s only one gospel of the kingdom, gentile believers still come into the kingdom.

If you think we’re not called to repent today, you’re very mistaken.

Repentance is required as part of our conversion, so that our sins are forgiven Acts 3:19

Paul taught that faith AND repentance is needed

Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, REPENTANCE toward God, AND faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

And Jesus warned several churches in Revelation that those who were sinning needed to repent.

Repentance was part of the works of the Law that could not save. In the NT we preached that Jews who were saved by grace needed to repent from Law-keeping and Judaism. This was largely the case at Pentecost and days following. If you are born again it is your new nature to repent. Believe and repentance is a sign a person is born again. Not a condition people are to meet in order to save themselves, as is the current trend today in free will thought.

 

[Dave L]

Good news if you can act like it - as the others on here. So can I now be treated with respect instead of having my words twisted to support your preconceptions or be spammed? In any case, this platform allows me to block you.

Matthew 12:36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

​

Know your topic well and alternative views. And it should help smooth things out.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Can I ask you a question then. I am an unbeliever. I want to be set free from sin. I want to be saved. And I see so many scriptures about how if you "repent and believe you will be saved." But you and others paint a completely hopeless picture for me. I live in sin because I desire it. But I don't want to desire it anymore. What must I do to be saved? Can I do anything? Or am I just eternally damned by God since even before the day I was born? What if he doesn't save me, since him doing it isn't in response to my will, choice to believe/seek his Son. But it is only because he has already either damned or saved me without my choice in the matter.

you desire to be saved then the Father is drawing you to the Son. Follow below what PAul declares a person does to be saved. Place your faith in Jesus died for your sins who was raised to give victory over death, sin and the devil. Believe this in your heart and confess to Him that He is now your Lord , call upon Him for your salvation and you will be saved. The Eternal Son stepped out of heaven to become a man and die for the sins of the world. John 1:1, John 1:14, 1 John 2:1-2.

Believe this promise.

Romans 10:9-13
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

hope this helps !!!

 

[John Mullally]

Repentance was part of the works of the Law that could not save. In the NT we preached that Jews who were saved by grace needed to repent from Law-keeping and Judaism. This was largely the case at Pentecost and days following. If you are born again it is your new nature to repent. Believe and repentance is a sign a person is born again. Not a condition people are to meet in order to save themselves, as is the current trend today in free will thought.

The pattern for evangelism is best demonstrated in the book of Acts. Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit and power delivered the first evangelical sermon. During the sermon, Peter was interrupted with the cry "Men and brethren, what shall we do" and he told them to take action - repent and be baptized. The result of this action is that 3000 souls were added to them.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.​

 

[Dave L]

The pattern for evangelism is best demonstrated in the book of Acts. Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit and power delivered the first evangelical sermon. During the sermon, Peter was interrupted with the cry "Men and brethren, what shall we do" and he told them to take action - repent and be baptized. The result of this action is that 3000 souls were added to them. You and Peter are in disagreement and Peter is not wrong.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.​

Acts was about saved Jews, who were born again converting to the New Covenant. If they didn't believe, they would have not given Peter the time of day.

 

[John Mullally]

Acts was about saved Jews, who were born again converting to the New Covenant. If they didn't believe, they would have not given Peter the time of day.

Verse 40 says that they were not already saved. Another important point is that verse 40 trails after "Repent and be baptized" in verse 38.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.”​

 

[Dave L]

Verse 40 says that they were not already saved.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.”​

Jesus says believers are saved. Why were they there if they didn't believe?

 

[John Mullally]

Jesus says believers are saved. Why were they there if they didn't believe?

They were there for the feast of Pentecost - so there was a ready made crowd. Why would Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, exhort people to "Be saved from this perverse generation" if salvation is totally out of the peoples control or if they already were saved?

Next possible objection to this:
If verse 40 indicates that the power of the Holy Spirit was being poured out to save many in the crowd Calvanist style (requiring no action on the recipient), then why did Peter command those in the crowd to take an action earlier (repent)?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Great example of wrong proof-texting by Calvinists, because this is a well known Jewish idiom meaning to love less, not to literally hate.

This fact is evident in the passage where Jesus said unless we hate mother and father, we aren’t worthy to be His disciples - He’s saying we must love our parents much less than we love Him.

Jesus told us to love our neighbor and even our enemies, so he obviously wouldn’t tell us to hate our parents and break a commandment to honor our parents.

Here’s Albert Barnes on that:

Jacob Have I hated - This does not mean any positive hatred; but that he had preferred Jacob, and had withheld from Esau those privileges and blessings which he had conferred on the posterity of Jacob. This is explained in Mal 1:3,” And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness;” compare Jer 49:17-18; Eze 35:6. It was common among the Hebrews to use the terms “love” and “hatred” in this comparative sense, where the former implied strong positive attachment, and the latter, not positive hatred, but merely a less love, or the withholding of the expressions of affection;

so let me get this right- love means love but hate doesn't mean hate. yikes

 

[Dave L]

They were there for the feast of Pentecost - so there was a ready made crowd. Why would Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, exhort people to "Be saved from this perverse generation" if salvation is totally out of the peoples control or if they already were saved?

Why did they comply with Peter if they didn't believe?