Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

[Dave L]

I trust you can find your own sources and hopefully move on to find inner peace

I have more inner peace than you can shake a stick at.

 

[John Mullally]

I have more inner peace than you can shake a stick at.

Good news if you can act like it - as the others on here. So can I now be treated with respect instead of having my words twisted to support your preconceptions or be spammed? In any case, this platform allows me to block you.

Matthew 12:36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

​

 

[Spiritual Jew]

And......around we go.......

Per Google:

will·ful·ly
/ˈwilfəlē/

adverb

1. 1.
   with the intention of causing harm; deliberately.
   "she denies four charges of willfully neglecting a patient"
   
   
2. 2.
   with a stubborn and determined intention to do as one wants, regardless of the consequences.
   "he had willfully ignored the evidence"

Why didn't you answer my other questions? Was he capable of doing anything but turning against His own Creator? If not, then what is the reason God gets angry with someone like that?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Was he speaking to wicked Jews about national repentance? Or to believers about turning from their sins?

Neither. Why would He talk to believers about turning from their sins? Do you not remember that He said, "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Luke 5:32)? He didn't need to tell people who already repented to repent, obviously.

And He never called for national repentance, He calls for all individuals to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9) and that started with the Jews. Remember, the parable is about the kingdom of heaven, so the invitation to the wedding banquet symbolizes the offer of salvation and the opportunity to enter the kingdom of heaven/God.

The parable is about how the gospel of salvation through Christ first went out to the Jews and a number of them believed, but most did not. You can read all about this in the book of Acts.

Eventually, it got to the point where the rest of the Jews they were preaching to refused to repent, so at that point it was time to take the gospel to the Gentiles.

Acts 13:42 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. 43 When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God. 44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

Paul and Barnabas were preaching the gospel to the Jews first and, like I said, some of them did respond favorably and repented and believed in Christ, but many did not. When Paul and Barnabas saw that no other Jews were willing to believe the gospel and they rejected it they then said "we now turn to the Gentiles".

After Jesus describes what would happen to those Jews who rejected the invitation (they were killed and their city was burned up, which ended up occurring in 70 AD), He then said this:

Matthew 22:9 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. 10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

The ones who were not worthy were the Jews that rejected the gospel. They were not worthy because they rejected the gospel and, as Paul and Barnabas said, "you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life". Notice, that it puts the blame completely on them and does not indicate that they rejected the gospel because they weren't able to accept it due to God not making them willing to accept it.

The mention of the invitation going "into the highways" has to do with the gospel going out to the Gentiles. As Paul and Barnabas said after the remaining Jews who didn't believe rejected the gospel, "now we turn to the Gentiles". It wasn't that the gospel wasn't preached at all to the Jews after that, but it was time to preach the gospel to the Gentiles at that point as well.

And the gospel has been preached around the world ever since. And then Jesus summed up the parable in verse 14 by saying "For many are invited, but few are chosen". If He was only talking about the Jews and only talking about national repentance then that statement would make no sense. He was talking about many individuals, Jews and Gentiles, being invited to the kingdom of heaven through the preaching of the gospel while relatively few ended up being chosen to enter the kingdom because it requires repentance and faith.

The guests who didn't have the proper wedding clothes on (unbelievers) end up being thrown out "into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth". That is a figurative reference to the fact that unbelievers end up in hell, which is a place of spiritual darkness and torment.

 

[chad kincham]

Interesting, that looks exactly like some of the universalism arguments I`m seeing.

Uni’s don’t deny freewill, like Calvies do - they just claim hell is only a long time-out in the corner - and there’s an exit sign in hell that they will eventually be allowed to use to get out.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Why didn't you answer my other questions? Was he capable of doing anything but turning against His own Creator? If not, then what is the reason God gets angry with someone like that?

Already answered, ad nauseum; they WILL to do wrong. They are willingly slaves to sin, and ALWAYS will to sin. They choose to sin. They are set at enmity against God, willingly.

 

[chad kincham]

Neither. Why would He talk to believers about turning from their sins? Do you not remember that He said, "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Luke 5:32)? He didn't need to tell people who already repented to repent, obviously.

And He never called for national repentance, He calls for all individuals to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9) and that started with the Jews. Remember, the parable is about the kingdom of heaven, so the invitation to the wedding banquet symbolizes the offer of salvation and the opportunity to enter the kingdom of heaven/God.

The parable is about how the gospel of salvation through Christ first went out to the Jews and a number of them believed, but most did not. You can read all about this in the book of Acts.

Eventually, it got to the point where the rest of the Jews they were preaching to refused to repent, so at that point it was time to take the gospel to the Gentiles.

Acts 13:42 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. 43 When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God. 44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

Paul and Barnabas were preaching the gospel to the Jews first and, like I said, some of them did respond favorably and repented and believed in Christ, but many did not. When Paul and Barnabas saw that no other Jews were willing to believe the gospel and they rejected it they then said "we now turn to the Gentiles".

After Jesus describes what would happen to those Jews who rejected the invitation (they were killed and their city was burned up, which ended up occurring in 70 AD), He then said this:

Matthew 22:9 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. 10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

The ones who were not worthy were the Jews that rejected the gospel. They were not worthy because they rejected the gospel and, as Paul and Barnabas said, "you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life". Notice, that it puts the blame completely on them and does not indicate that they rejected the gospel because they weren't able to accept it due to God not making them willing to accept it.

The mention of the invitation going "into the highways" has to do with the gospel going out to the Gentiles. As Paul and Barnabas said after the remaining Jews who didn't believe rejected the gospel, "now we turn to the Gentiles". It wasn't that the gospel wasn't preached at all to the Jews after that, but it was time to preach the gospel to the Gentiles at that point as well.

And the gospel has been preached around the world ever since. And then Jesus summed up the parable in verse 14 by saying "For many are invited, but few are chosen". If He was only talking about the Jews and only talking about national repentance then that statement would make no sense. He was talking about many individuals, Jews and Gentiles, being invited to the kingdom of heaven through the preaching of the gospel while relatively few ended up being chosen to enter the kingdom because it requires repentance and faith.

The guests who didn't have the proper wedding clothes on (unbelievers) end up being thrown out "into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth". That is a figurative reference to the fact that unbelievers end up in hell, which is a place of spiritual darkness and torment.

Reformed/Calvinist doctrine is an insult to God’s character and makes Him a sadist:

1) first He decreed the fall of man into sin.

2) then He decreed the punishment for sin was damnation in hell/the lake of fire.

3) then arbitrarily decreed that He would hate most of mankind and predestine them to eternal damnation, by deliberately making it impossible for them to believe - then damn them for unbelief.

Remember - Jesus said most will be damned, and few will be saved - which means most of mankind is predestined to hell, and that God will also hate the unelect as He hated Esau.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Already answered, ad nauseum; they WILL to do wrong. They are willingly slaves to sin, and ALWAYS will to sin. They choose to sin. They are set at enmity against God, willingly.

What causes them to will to do wrong? Isn't it God who causes them to will to do wrong, in your view, since God did not create them in such a way that they can help but to be anything but slaves to sin?

Surely, in your view, it is God's will that they are slaves to sin since He created them that way and does nothing to make it so that they can be any other way, right? And that is your idea of a God who loves the world enough to send His Son to sacrifice Himself for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2)? His Son died for their sins, but at the same time God ensures that they cannot believe in Him and receive forgiveness for their sins?

 

[chad kincham]

Jesus taught under the Law. And national repentance prevented their destruction. So God destroyed them when they didn't. It's not about salvation.

Since there’s only one gospel of the kingdom, gentile believers still come into the kingdom.

If you think we’re not called to repent today, you’re very mistaken.

Repentance is required as part of our conversion, so that our sins are forgiven Acts 3:19

Paul taught that faith AND repentance is needed

Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, REPENTANCE toward God, AND faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

And Jesus warned several churches in Revelation that those who were sinning needed to repent.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Reformed/Calvinist doctrine is an insult to God’s character and makes Him a sadist:

I couldn't agree more.

1) first He decreed the fall of man into sin.

2) then He decreed the punishment for sin was damnation in hell/the lake of fire.

3) then arbitrarily decreed that He would hate most of mankind and predestine them to eternal damnation, by deliberately making it impossible for them to believe - then damn them for unbelief.

Remember - Jesus said most will be damned, and few will be saved - which means most of mankind is predestined to hell, and that God will also hate the unelect as He hated Esau.

1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

I'm trying to see if there's any way to reconcile Calvinism's view that God hates most people, as evidenced by the fact that a majority of people are born doomed to hell (in their view) with what this verse says and I don't see a way to do that. A God who hates most people is love? Really? No. Like you said, Calvinism is an insult to God's character.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Reformed/Calvinist doctrine is an insult to God’s character and makes Him a sadist:

1) first He decreed the fall of man into sin.

2) then He decreed the punishment for sin was damnation in hell/the lake of fire.

3) then arbitrarily decreed that He would hate most of mankind and predestine them to eternal damnation, by deliberately making it impossible for them to believe - then damn them for unbelief.

Remember - Jesus said most will be damned, and few will be saved - which means most of mankind is predestined to hell, and that God will also hate the unelect as He hated Esau.

Not to say that you have accurately and fairly represented Calvinism here, but remember the unassailable fact that God has the absolute right to do whatever he chooses with his own creation. On top of that, remember that God is absolutely just in doing as he chooses. And to lead to my next few comments, remember we are in no position to judge what he does.

1. Yes, He planned the fall of man into sin, and that, for a specific purpose.

2. Yes, the natural and just repayment for sin is damnation. Sin is that much of a horror.

3. God does nothing arbitrarily. He does nothing without purpose. You, as others here, keep pretending Calvinism teaches God behaves arbitrarily. Not only does that make no sense, but Calvinism teaches no such thing. You want the reader to think the non-elect, through no fault of his own, is stuck in sin by God's decree alone.

All along we have been saying that man DOES have choice. Yet you (plural) ignore that or attempt to define it out, to place the blame in God's hands, and not in mankind's; when God grants totally unmerited mercy to some, and that for his own purposes, you complain of his withholding it from others???!!! Who do you think these people are who deserve mercy through merely existing, in spite of their opposition to their own creator? You may as well say the Devil himself, created for the purpose to which he has set himself, is blameless.

Now, read the cold hard facts as described in Romans 9. The potter has every right to make his vessels as he chooses for whatever purpose he chooses. What-- you don't know that he is that much above us that he needn't even consider us as what we want to be known by him as: sentient beings, to some degree his peers, to whom he owes some modicum of respect. We wouldn't even rate on any scale of satisfaction were he the sadist you claim Calvinism makes of him.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I couldn't agree more.

1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

I'm trying to see if there's any way to reconcile Calvinism's view that God hates most people, as evidenced by the fact that a majority of people are born doomed to hell (in their view) with what this verse says and I don't see a way to do that. A God who hates most people is love? Really? No. Like you said, Calvinism is an insult to God's character.

I don't know if you have seen how it is possible, at least for a human, for a person to both love and hate someone else --even to love and hate himself! Why can God not, then both love and hate a sinner? We are, after all, made in his image, but we are full of sin --apart from him we are bent against him in all we think and do and feel.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Since there’s only one gospel of the kingdom, gentile believers still come into the kingdom.

If you think we’re not called to repent today, you’re very mistaken.

Repentance is required as part of our conversion, so that our sins are forgiven Acts 3:19

Paul taught that faith AND repentance is needed

Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, REPENTANCE toward God, AND faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

And Jesus warned several churches in Revelation that those who were sinning needed to repent.

"If you think we’re not called to repent today, you’re very mistaken."??? What in the world makes you think Dave doesn't believe we're not called to repent today??

You are not right. You are not even wrong!

You are not answering what Dave is saying.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Not to say that you have accurately and fairly represented Calvinism here, but remember the unassailable fact that God has the absolute right to do whatever he chooses with his own creation.

On top of that, remember that God is absolutely just in doing as he chooses. And to lead to my next few comments, remember we are in no position to judge what he does.

Amen! No one here disagrees with any of that (not that you're saying anyone does, I just wanted to make sure that was clear).

1. Yes, He planned the fall of man into sin, and that, for a specific purpose.

2. Yes, the natural and just repayment for sin is damnation. Sin is that much of a horror.

3. God does nothing arbitrarily. He does nothing without purpose. You, as others here, keep pretending Calvinism teaches God behaves arbitrarily. Not only does that make no sense, but Calvinism teaches no such thing. You want the reader to think the non-elect, through no fault of his own, is stuck in sin by God's decree alone.

How exactly is it the non-elects fault that they are "stuck in sin"? Please be as specific as possible and use scripture to back up your answer if you can.

All along we have been saying that man DOES have choice. Yet you (plural) ignore that or attempt to define it out, to place the blame in God's hands, and not in mankind's;

What choice does man have exactly and what are the options he is choosing from when he makes that choice?

when God grants totally unmerited mercy to some, and that for his own purposes, you complain of his withholding it from others???!!!

Yes, exactly!!!

How does it make sense for you to say that he withholds His mercy from others in light of what it says here:

Romans 11:30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Paul said very clearly that God "bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all". This contradicts Calvinist doctrine completely! Calvinism says God bound everyone over to disobedience and only wants to have mercy on some of them. That contradicts what Paul taught!

Calvinism constantly only sees half of the big picture. They see Romans 9 that says God has mercy on whoever He wants and no one can complain about that. Yes, that's right! Amen! But, for some inexplicable reason, Calvinism misses Romans 11:30-32. God can have mercy on whoever He wants. Who does He want to have mercy on? Everyone!

So, does He just do that or does He make people responsible to choose to humble themselves in order to obtain mercy? He makes man responsible. Calvinism can't deal with this because it says if man is responsible to do something then that means he can take credit for his own salvation. That's true if we're talking about works of the law or good works like helping an old lady cross the street. But, we're not.

For us to use our God given free will to choose to humble ourselves and acknowledge that we are sinners and can't save ourselves and need God's mercy and forgiveness is clearly not a case of trying to earn salvation and take credit for it. It's the opposite of that.

Free will does not violate God's character at all the way Calvinism does. Calvinism turns an impartial God into a partial God and a God who c everyone into a God who only cares

Who do you think these people are who deserve mercy through merely existing, in spite of their opposition to their own creator? You may as well say the Devil himself, created for the purpose to which he has set himself, is blameless.

It has nothing to do with anyone deserving mercy. No one does. That's where God's grace comes in. It has to do with God giving "everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all". That was God's choice.

Now, read the cold hard facts as described in Romans 9. The potter has every right to make his vessels as he chooses for whatever purpose he chooses. What-- you don't know that he is that much above us that he needn't even consider us as what we want to be known by him as: sentient beings, to some degree his peers, to whom he owes some modicum of respect. We wouldn't even rate on any scale of satisfaction were he the sadist you claim Calvinism makes of him.

Nice straw man argument. No one disagrees that God can do whatever He wants without anyone having the right to complain about anything He does. But, thankfully, God is love. And because He is love He, instead of just saving some with the rest not even having the opportunity to be saved (That's love? Really? No. It's hate. But God is love, not hate), He wants all people to be saved and His Son gave Himself as a ransom for all people so that they would have the opportunity to be saved.

The following passage just cannot be reconciled by Calvinism no matter what you try to do. And I've seen Calvinists try to do it and the attempts are, frankly, embarrassing.

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Scripture says God wants all people to be saved and that Jesus gave Himself as a random for all people. Calvinism, in contrast, says God wants some people to be saved and that Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for some people. Which view supports the fact that God is love (1 John 4:8)? The answer is obvious.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Amen! No one here disagrees with any of that (not that you're saying anyone does, I just wanted to make sure that was clear).

How exactly is it the non-elects fault that they are "stuck in sin"? Please be as specific as possible and use scripture to back up your answer if you can.

What choice does man have exactly and what are the options he is choosing from when he makes that choice?

Yes, exactly!!!

How does it make sense for you to say that he withholds His mercy from others in light of what it says here:

Romans 11:30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Paul said very clearly that God "bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all". This contradicts Calvinist doctrine completely! Calvinism says God bound everyone over to disobedience and only wants to have mercy on some of them. That contradicts what Paul taught!

Calvinism constantly only sees half of the big picture. They see Romans 9 that says God has mercy on whoever He wants and no one can complain about that. Yes, that's right! Amen! But, for some inexplicable reason, Calvinism misses Romans 11:30-32. God can have mercy on whoever He wants. Who does He want to have mercy on? Everyone!

So, does He just do that or does He make people responsible to choose to humble themselves in order to obtain mercy? He makes man responsible. Calvinism can't deal with this because it says if man is responsible to do something then that means he can take credit for his own salvation. That's true if we're talking about works of the law or good works like helping an old lady cross the street. But, we're not.

For us to use our God given free will to choose to humble ourselves and acknowledge that we are sinners and can't save ourselves and need God's mercy and forgiveness is clearly not a case of trying to earn salvation and take credit for it. It's the opposite of that.

Free will does not violate God's character at all the way Calvinism does. Calvinism turns an impartial God into a partial God and a God who c everyone into a God who only cares

It has nothing to do with anyone deserving mercy. It has to do with God giving "everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all".

Nice straw man argument. No one disagrees that God can do whatever He wants without anyone having the right to complain about anything He does. But, thankfully, God is love. And because He is love He, instead of just saving some with the rest not even having the opportunity to be saved (That's love? Really? No. It's hate. But God is love, not hate), He wants all people to be saved and His Son gave Himself as a ransom for all people so that they would have the opportunity to be saved.

The following passage just cannot be reconciled by Calvinism no matter what you try to do. And I've seen Calvinists try to do it and the attempts are, frankly, embarrassing.

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Scripture says God wants all people to be saved and that Jesus gave Himself as a random for all people. Calvinism, in contrast, says God wants some people to be saved and that Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for some people. Which view supports the fact that God is love (1 John 4:8)? The answer is obvious.

I think I've answered every one of these, even on this thread, ad nauseum. I've had enough. I think I might write a new OP about the different mindsets of Christians, the way they look at themselves and at God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Good news if you can act like it - as the others on here. So can I now be treated with respect instead of having my words twisted to support your preconceptions or be spammed? In any case, this platform allows me to block you.

Matthew 12:36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

​

No doubt I will eat these words myself, haha, but, by the same standard you use for others, you will be measured.

"As a thornbush in the hand of a drunkard, so is a proverb in the mouth of a fool." (See, that hardly hurt at all!)

 

[RDKirk]

Doesn't keep me awake at night.

Like the former prostitute said, "I know I'm saved, Vicar, but if you're not sure, we can pray on that!"

Or as the other guy said, "I don't know for sure how I got here, but I'm sure jazzed to be here."

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I don't know if you have seen how it is possible, at least for a human, for a person to both love and hate someone else --even to love and hate himself!

It's wrong for us to hate anyone, is it not? Of course it is. Jesus taught us to even love our enemies. I'm really not seeing your point here.

Why can God not, then both love and hate a sinner? We are, after all, made in his image, but we are full of sin --apart from him we are bent against him in all we think and do and feel.

Where does scripture teach that God hates anyone? Did Christ, who is God in the flesh, teach us to love our enemies while He hates them? That would be hypocritical.

God hates our sin and He gets angry with people who refuse to repent, but He doesn't hate anyone.

 

[John Mullally]

No doubt I will eat these words myself, haha, but, by the same standard you use for others, you will be measured.

"As a thornbush in the hand of a drunkard, so is a proverb in the mouth of a fool." (See, that hardly hurt at all!)

Unfortunately there is one person here who took delight in twisting my words on this thread and then bashing me for them. After many rebukes, I referred to scripture - not my first choice.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I think I've answered every one of these, even on this thread, ad nauseum. I've had enough. I think I might write a new OP about the different mindsets of Christians, the way they look at themselves and at God.

I don't recall ever seeing your understanding of Romans 11:30-32. Can you tell me your interpretation of that passage and whether you see any relation to that passage and Romans 9:15-18 in the sense that it tells us who God wants to have mercy on?