Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

[Mark Quayle]

Where does scripture teach that God hates anyone? Did Christ, who is God in the flesh, teach us to love our enemies while He hates them? That would be hypocritical.

Would you call him hypocritical to tell us "thou shalt not kill", and to love our enemies, but command Israel to wipe out whole nations, and by himself to wipe out all the inhabitants of the earth but a few, with a flood? We don't operate on his level. (A somewhat humorous sidenote: I have noticed, particularly in debating with Atheists, but also liberal Christians, that they will deny a doctrine, saying that God would be hypocritical to say (think, command, whatever) this or that, if he himself doesn't abide by it, but they seem to have no problem with a Congress that doesn't have to abide by the regulations they impose on the general public.)

I think it is worth noting that God's hatred isn't like ours. It is not as though he isn't in control of those he hates like we are not, but it is closely related to his abhorrence for injustice and sin. He is altogether just, and those at enmity with him are therefore under his condemnation.

Romans 9:13 Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated.

Psalm 5:5 “The arrogant cannot stand in Your presence; You hate all who do wrong.

Psalm 139:
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, Lord,
and abhor those who are in rebellion against you?
22 I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.

 

[QvQ]

I hesitate to say this because it is not easily understood.
I would say that man is made in God's image and is under God's commands but God is something other than man. God is God, a law unto Himself. Man is man, and God has domonion.
To answer the thread:
I was saved before I believed. I "saw" God's order in the world and went looking for an explanation. I already knew God before I found the matching words and the truth in the Bible and Christ.
It is like being able to see a light bulb (saved) and then reading a true description that explained electricity and light bulbs (believe)

 

[John Mullally]

I hesitate to say this because it is not easily understood.
I would say that man is made in God's image and is under God's commands but God is something other than man. God is God, a law unto Himself. Man is man, and God has domonion.
To answer the thread:
I was saved before I believed. I "saw" God's order in the world and went looking for an explanation. I already knew God before I found the matching words and the truth in the Bible and Christ.
It is like being able to see a light bulb (saved) and then reading a true description that explained electricity and light bulbs (believe)

As good as your experience was, one cannot make doctrine from it. The patterns established in the book of Acts and the rest of the New Testament are the standard. Examples from the New Testament are excellent to refer to. Even Cornellius the first Gentile convert had to be preached to.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't recall ever seeing your understanding of Romans 11:30-32. Can you tell me your interpretation of that passage and whether you see any relation to that passage and Romans 9:15-18 in the sense that it tells us who God wants to have mercy on?

You said, "How does it make sense for you to say that he withholds His mercy from others in light of what it says here:" and you brought up

Romans 11:30-32
"Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." --I assume the reason you brought up this passage is because of the idea of God having mercy on all the disobedient.

Notice that Paul is referring here to the mercy of God toward Gentiles as a result of the disobedience of the Jews. His "all" here, has to do with the inclusiveness of all peoples, both Jew and Gentile. It is not saying that God will indeed have mercy on absolutely everyone henceforth. Are you a Universalist?

But also, there is a use of the passage in which Paul rhetorically includes absolutely everyone [since mercy is the only way out for any (assumed though not spoken)] --and is not saying that absolutely everyone will, or even possibly can.

(You might note that you must assume some provisional mercy by God upon absolutely everyone, in order to avoid universalism in saying mercy on all. You must say, "The term, "might", means it may or may not actually come to fruition. It provides for the possibility." I bring this up, in case you object to me saying something is assumed though not spoken, because that is what you must do too, unless you are a universalist.)

I think it is a combination of the two. Both apply. This is, of course, just my take --I don't represent Calvinism in this, though I have heard Reformed Theologians and teachers use one or the other ways of looking at it.

Also, I find it necessary to object to your phrase "withholds his grace", once again. It is not as though he unfairly keeps it from some. No! -- He unfairly gives it to some. We all get what we deserve, except those of us to whom he has chosen to show mercy.



Romans 9 says,
"15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

I love this part of the Chapter, although I particularly delight in the whole chapter, as you might guess, since I'm of the Reformed persuasion, and indeed I love the whole Book of Romans.

Of course, I see Romans 9 as related to Romans 11, (and the whole rest of the book, for that matter). Earlier in Romans 9 in the discourse of the potter and his clay vessels, some chosen for honorable use and some for dishonorable use, the point is clearly made that this is all the work of God, and that he will do as he sees fit with what is his by right of ownership (i.e. by right of creation and ultimate lordship as God). The clay cannot speak back to the potter, nor does man have the status to judge God.

When the potter makes a vessel for a specific use, he will do to it as he pleases, and will not consult the clay as to its preferences or wishes. (My note: "It is, after all, not even alive.") So he will have mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, and harden whom he chooses to harden.

You, I assume, like many others here, want Romans 11 to say that God has mercy on everyone, (having died for everyone), but that through Free Will they have rejected him. I do not deny that absolutely all indeed have chosen to reject him, but Romans 9 shows that "it does not depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy" who will receive Salvation. This also does not deny, as I have repeatedly stated on this forum, that man indeed does choose God, but God's mercy does NOT depend on what man desires or chooses, no matter the degree of his integrity of choice.

 

[QvQ]

As good as your experience was, one cannot make doctrine from it. The patterns established in the book of Acts and the rest of the New Testament are the standard. Examples from the New Testament are excellent to refer to. Even Cornellius the first Gentile convert had to be preached to.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
However even those who have seen cannot truly understand without the Word. Paul on the Road to Damascus definitely "saw" and heard the Word of God
But I am not certain it is a difference whether a person is saved first or believed first when salvation and the relationship with God is part and parcel, seeing and believing, in any order that is guided, encouraged and revealed by the Word of God (the Bible)

 

[STommy]

Yes, because they are slaves to sin, they WILL not to believe. And they will ALWAYS do so until God regenerates them.

And what happens if an unbeliever wants to be saved but is not chosen or "elect" by God? Are they just hopeless even thought they wish to be saved?

 

[John Mullally]

And what happens if an unbeliever wants to be saved but is not chosen or "elect" by God? Are they just hopeless even thought they wish to be saved?

I would direct one to Romans 10:6-10.

This dilemma is never addressed in the New Testament - why do you think that is?

 

[STommy]

I would argue that this case does not exist given Romans 10:6-10.

This dilemma is never addressed in the New Testament - why do you think that is?

Well I think I may be a special case then. I am an unbeliever who wants to be saved. But I find it impossible to truly repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe everything the Bible says is true but I find it hard to find true saving faith. And now here I am finding people saying that human effort or responsibility doesn't matter. And that repentance is impossible because God just doesn't give it to some people. How will I know if God will give it and salvation to me? Because based on the comments I've seen here I'm doomed to hell no matter what I pray, do, or ask of God because he's already determined my place.

 

[STommy]

You said, "How does it make sense for you to say that he withholds His mercy from others in light of what it says here:" and you brought up

Romans 11:30-32
"Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." --I assume the reason you brought up this passage is because of the idea of God having mercy on all the disobedient.

Notice that Paul is referring here to the mercy of God toward Gentiles as a result of the disobedience of the Jews. His "all" here, has to do with the inclusiveness of all peoples, both Jew and Gentile. It is not saying that God will indeed have mercy on absolutely everyone henceforth. Are you a Universalist?

But also, there is a use of the passage in which Paul rhetorically includes absolutely everyone [since mercy is the only way out for any (assumed though not spoken)] --and is not saying that absolutely everyone will, or even possibly can.

(You might note that you must assume some provisional mercy by God upon absolutely everyone, in order to avoid universalism in saying mercy on all. You must say, "The term, "might", means it may or may not actually come to fruition. It provides for the possibility." I bring this up, in case you object to me saying something is assumed though not spoken, because that is what you must do too, unless you are a universalist.)

I think it is a combination of the two. Both apply. This is, of course, just my take --I don't represent Calvinism in this, though I have heard Reformed Theologians and teachers use one or the other ways of looking at it.

Also, I find it necessary to object to your phrase "withholds his grace", once again. It is not as though he unfairly keeps it from some. No! -- He unfairly gives it to some. We all get what we deserve, except those of us to whom he has chosen to show mercy.



Romans 9 says,
"15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

I love this part of the Chapter, although I particularly delight in the whole chapter, as you might guess, since I'm of the Reformed persuasion, and indeed I love the whole Book of Romans.

Of course, I see Romans 9 as related to Romans 11, (and the whole rest of the book, for that matter). Earlier in Romans 9 in the discourse of the potter and his clay vessels, some chosen for honorable use and some for dishonorable use, the point is clearly made that this is all the work of God, and that he will do as he sees fit with what is his by right of ownership (i.e. by right of creation and ultimate lordship as God). The clay cannot speak back to the potter, nor does man have the status to judge God.

When the potter makes a vessel for a specific use, he will do to it as he pleases, and will not consult the clay as to its preferences or wishes. (My note: "It is, after all, not even alive.") So he will have mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, and harden whom he chooses to harden.

You, I assume, like many others here, want Romans 11 to say that God has mercy on everyone, (having died for everyone), but that through Free Will they have rejected him. I do not deny that absolutely all indeed have chosen to reject him, but Romans 9 shows that "it does not depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy" who will receive Salvation. This also does not deny, as I have repeatedly stated on this forum, that man indeed does choose God, but God's mercy does NOT depend on what man desires or chooses, no matter the degree of his integrity of choice.

May I ask you, what do you believe an unbeliever must do to be saved?

 

[STommy]

Yes he was the son of perdition/destruction which is the same name given to the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and judas in John 17:12. The word perdition means eternal damnation, doomed to destruction. When a person is called the son of perdition it has the meaning of a person in an unredeemable state, someone who is already eternally damned while he is still alive. It is not a description for anyone who is of God but just the opposite- of the devil.

There is no getting around the fact judas was never saved and these passages make that fact absolutely clear. Nowhere in scripture does it say that Judas was saved or possessed eternal life. In fact it declares just the opposite. The bible teaches that Judas was the son of perdition from the beginning. He was created for the very purpose and role as the traitor who would betray Jesus. Jesus said of Judas it would of been better off for him to not even been born than to betray the Son of Man.

John 6:63-65
The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

John 6:70-71
Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray Him.)

John 12:4-6
But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray Him, objected, 5 "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." 6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

John 13:10-11
10 Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11 For He knew who was going to betray Him, and that was why He said not every one was clean.

John 17:12
12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Matthew 26:23-25
23 Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?"

Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."

Acts 1:16-19
16 and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17 he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."

18 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

Acts 1:24-26
Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Psalms 109:4-8
In return for my friendship they accuse me,
but I am a man of prayer.
5 They repay me evil for good,
and hatred for my friendship.

6 Appoint an evil man to oppose him;
let an accuser stand at his right hand.
7 When he is tried, let him be found guilty,
and may his prayers condemn him.
8 May his days be few;
may another take his place of leadership.

Can I ask you a question then. I am an unbeliever. I want to be set free from sin. I want to be saved. And I see so many scriptures about how if you "repent and believe you will be saved." But you and others paint a completely hopeless picture for me. I live in sin because I desire it. But I don't want to desire it anymore. What must I do to be saved? Can I do anything? Or am I just eternally damned by God since even before the day I was born? What if he doesn't save me, since him doing it isn't in response to my will, choice to believe/seek his Son. But it is only because he has already either damned or saved me without my choice in the matter.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What causes them to will to do wrong? Isn't it God who causes them to will to do wrong, in your view, since God did not create them in such a way that they can help but to be anything but slaves to sin?

Surely, in your view, it is God's will that they are slaves to sin since He created them that way and does nothing to make it so that they can be any other way, right? And that is your idea of a God who loves the world enough to send His Son to sacrifice Himself for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2)? His Son died for their sins, but at the same time God ensures that they cannot believe in Him and receive forgiveness for their sins?

I want to be sure you are not conflating what Reformers refer to as the two wills of God --the revealed and the hidden wills, the command and the plan, etc. Yes, it is God's plan that all are slaves to sin, until he regenerates some. As God causes all things, he does indeed cause them to be slaves to sin; whether directly or indirectly, he does cause it. It is a little off to say he created them like that, but yes, his plan, for which he created, does include that they be dead in their sins, unable to do anything for God.

It is also a stretch to say he does nothing to make it so that they can be any other way. He does, after all, leave them with no excuse for not believing. (If, in their dead state, willful always against him, they are determined of their own integrity to know truth (no doubt after their own style), and they are given a certain amount of light, such as the witness of conscience or natural law or nature, so they choose to blind and harden themselves, he may indeed harden them even further, perhaps even by revealing more about himself, to which they respond after their nature.)

But meanwhile, what I assume as your use of 1 John 2:1-2 to support the notion that absolutely everyone (and nobody in particular) is the target of God's mercy in sacrificing his Son for their sins, is mistaken. You might notice that John's primary readers are Jews, but John is here saying that the Gospel is not just for Jew, but for Gentile as well. This use bears out, as you can see in the rest of John's writings.

Also, somewhat along the lines of what many non-Calvinist believers say, that God has made provision, but it is not made actual until the person believes, some Calvinists will say that the sacrifice was "sufficient for all, but actual for the elect only.", "sufficient" in that case meaning not that actual payment was made for the non-elect, but that Christ's sufficiency would have covered their sins too, had God chosen to do it that way.

The common theological term for what is at work here is "efficiency", as in, did Christ make unnecessary payment? Does the person who believes that Christ in fact did pay for the sins of absolutely every person who ever lived, then have to admit that he is the one limiting the atonement, because, after all, he also says that in the end some are condemned to an eternity in the Lake of Fire. Has some of that payment Christ made gone to waste? Others (Universalists) try to answer it by saying that in the end, all are saved.

 

[QvQ]

I would direct one to Romans 10:6-10.

This dilemma is never addressed in the New Testament - why do you think that is?

I have wondered if an unbeliever can Want, actively Will to be saved? The ignorant bliss of sin, sex drugs rock and roll is fun and the Devil is beautiful. I know there is a yearning in the heart for God,a nameless desire but it is not "will" that animates a command as in "I want to be saved. I will go do that, today." Perhaps all people want to go home to the place where there is love and joy even though the call can be drowned in the sorrow and sin of this world and go unheeded. I am not certain a person could form an idea of what he/she desires or whether that person has any will power over that longing. Or what God's mercy or election is in this case.

 

[John Mullally]

Well I think I may be a special case then. I am an unbeliever who wants to be saved. But I find it impossible to truly repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe everything the Bible says is true but I find it hard to find true saving faith. And now here I am finding people saying that human effort or responsibility doesn't matter. And that repentance is impossible because God just doesn't give it to some people. How will I know if God will give it and salvation to me? Because based on the comments I've seen here I'm doomed to hell no matter what I pray, do, or ask of God because he's already determined my place.

Please talk to any Christian friends or acquaintances ASAP. I am sure they can connect you to a Pastor for counselling. You can also call the hotline on any Christian TV program. When I was I baby Christian, the devil tried to convince me that I committed the unpardonable sin. Blessings.

 

[Mark Quayle]

May I ask you, what do you believe an unbeliever must do to be saved?

Believe the Gospel. Believe in Christ, for forgiveness of sins. Repent.

But if your question really is, what must an unbeliever do to cause his salvation? My best answer to him would be to ask of God for his answer, because he cannot cause his own salvation. He cannot even effect it. But he can most certainly receive saving faith (though again, that is done by God, and not by the will of man), and if he finds in himself a desire for Christ and his holiness and hatred for his own sin, he can most certainly as Christ to come in and replace his filth with purity, and forgive him for his sins. Generally speaking, I would guess, this is all simultaneous with, though caused by, regeneration.

 

[John Mullally]

I have wondered if an unbeliever can Want, actively Will to be saved? The ignorant bliss of sin, sex drugs rock and roll is fun and the Devil is beautiful. I know there is a yearning in the heart for God,a nameless desire but it is not "will" which animates a command as in "I want to be saved. I will go do that, today." Perhaps all people want to go home to the place where there is love and joy even though the call can be drowned in the sorrow and sin of this world and go unheeded. I am not certain if a person could form an idea of what the person desires or whether that person has any will power over that longing. Or what God's mercy or election is in this case.

It sounds like you are a new convert. Make sure to make a connection to a local church if you have not already. It is a good idea to visit a few before making a commitment. Blessings!

 

[Mark Quayle]

And what happens if an unbeliever wants to be saved but is not chosen or "elect" by God? Are they just hopeless even thought they wish to be saved?

Depends on what you mean by 'wants'. No doubt Judas wished he could be saved but not give up his sin. (The dead in their sins may even think they do good, since it seems good, and yields positive results, but their hearts do not belong to God, and they are their own masters, or so they assume. They don't know they remain at enmity with God. They may even comply with God's commands as best they understand them, but they do not submit --it is not obedience as God would have it, but mere compliance.)

But one in whom God has already worked, and is still working, may find himself desiring Christ; then let him ask of God, who gives to all without finding fault. If he truly desires Christ, he may well be elect after all. But if he is not elect, it might only be wish-think.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I hesitate to say this because it is not easily understood.
I would say that man is made in God's image and is under God's commands but God is something other than man. God is God, a law unto Himself. Man is man, and God has domonion.
To answer the thread:
I was saved before I believed. I "saw" God's order in the world and went looking for an explanation. I already knew God before I found the matching words and the truth in the Bible and Christ.
It is like being able to see a light bulb (saved) and then reading a true description that explained electricity and light bulbs (believe)

As my father told me, "Some people just come to know the Lord.", after I had told him of someone referring to the moment of salvation.

To my understanding, it is more a cause and effect kind of thing, than even a sequence as we understand sequence. Not only that, but we are blind as to causes. What we feel and assess is approximately irrelevant. The main fact is that all credit belongs to God for what he has done --not for what we have done. We redeemed are IN HIM, not agents in our own right.

 

[STommy]

I would direct one to Romans 10:6-10.

This dilemma is never addressed in the New Testament - why do you think that is?

I read it. But for forgive my ignorance, but I don't know what you're getting at. Could you elaborate? Because my question actually pertains to me. I am an unbeliever who lives in and desires sin but I don't want to any longer.

 

[STommy]

Depends on what you mean by 'wants'. No doubt Judas wished he could be saved but not give up his sin. (The dead in their sins may even think they do good, since it seems good, and yields positive results, but their hearts do not belong to God, and they are their own masters, or so they assume. They don't know they remain at enmity with God. They may even comply with God's commands as best they understand them, but they do not submit --it is not obedience as God would have it, but mere compliance.)

But one in whom God has already worked, and is still working, may find himself desiring Christ; then let him ask of God, who gives to all without finding fault. If he truly desires Christ, he may well be elect after all. But if he is not elect, it might only be wish-think.

How can I get my heart to the place where it truly desires Christ and wants to hate sin. I truly do desire to be in that state of heart. What must I do or do I just leave it to God to either save or damn me?

 

[RickReads]

Well I think I may be a special case then. I am an unbeliever who wants to be saved. But I find it impossible to truly repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe everything the Bible says is true but I find it hard to find true saving faith. And now here I am finding people saying that human effort or responsibility doesn't matter. And that repentance is impossible because God just doesn't give it to some people. How will I know if God will give it and salvation to me? Because based on the comments I've seen here I'm doomed to hell no matter what I pray, do, or ask of God because he's already determined my place.

If you believe the gospel then God has already given you faith. The next step for you is to seek God and ask Him to reveal His Spirit to you. Real repentance will come naturally as you begin to feel in your heart the damage your sin has caused.