Are you Protestant?

[Monica02]

Mary was born of immculate conception? I thought Jesus was.

Mary was conceived in the normal way. The birth of Jesus is referred to as the Virgin Birth- He was not conceived in the normal way.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I wish instead to be reffered to as a Christian, but there is a fat chance of that now isn't there?

Hey Uncle Bud, I was meaning to comment on this when I first read it but got a little sidetracked.

What do you mean by "fat chance of that"? Are you saying that Catholics don't consider us Christians because any Catholic who says that does so in opposition to their own leadership and Catechism.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Church is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic

...

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

 

[SumTinWong]

Hey Uncle Bud, I was meaning to comment on this when I first read it but got a little sidetracked.

What do you mean by "fat chance of that"? Are you saying that Catholics don't consider us Christians because any Catholic who says that does so in opposition to their own leadership and Catechism.

Nope. I asked one day for a Catholic to just call me a Christian instead of a protestant, and we got into this long drawn out conversation about how if they call me a Christian, what does that mean they as Catholics are in the eyes of other people (For a long time I guess people who were Catholics did not even know that they were indeed Christians because they kept referring to themselves as Catholics or other Christians said they were not). I say "you are a Christian of course". "But you are not in the fullness of the truth like we are and we are blah blah blah..." So anyway, I was trying to advocate just calling each other Christians, but apparently they did not get the memo.

Anyway what it boiled down to was they would not just refer to me as just a Christian even though I would give them the same benefit of the doubt.

 

[ps139]

Anyway what it boiled down to was they would not just refer to me as just a Christian even though I would give them the same benefit of the doubt.

Bud you know I'm not of that opinion.

 

[SumTinWong]

Sure I do, Bill, you know I love ya as a brother in Christ, but if it came down to it, you would probably agree with the others that me as a non-Catholic am not in the fullness of the faith, and am not a part of the church that Jesus founded, correct? Because if you say that I am, you are the first to do so.

Me on the other hand I can say with my whole heart that I believe that Catholics who are following Christ, are Christians.

 

[ps139]

Sure I do, Bill, you know I love ya as a brother in Christ, but if it came down to it, you would probably agree with the others that me as a non-Catholic am not in the fullness of the faith, and am not a part of the church that Jesus founded, correct? Because if you say that I am, you are the first to do so.

Well then let me be the first.
Do I believe you are in the "fullness of the faith," no, not at all. But you know that already.
Do I believe you are part of the Church? The Body of Christ? YES. I do not know how it works but I know you are a part of the Body of Christ just as I am.
I do not think its an "either/or" with you, or with a lot of non-Catholics. Any Catholic who denies this does not know what his church teaches.

Me on the other hand I can say with my whole heart that I believe that Catholics who are following Christ, are Christians.

And I say the same about Baptists. I'd never tell a Baptist he is not a Christian, ever.

 

[SumTinWong]

Thanks Bill.

 

[AJ]

I consider myself a Bible thumping... Bible believing... Christian.

 

[SumTinWong]

Sounds like a good name for this forum

 

[BjBarnett]

ok just one quick question... What does bible thumping mean? lol

 

[puriteen18]

This question really depends on what you mean by 'Protestant' and, probably more importantly, what you mean by 'Baptist'.

The name 'Baptist' is not the best for two usually forgotten reasons:

1. There are many separate traditions that hold to this name. The three that survive today are Anabaptists, English-Sepratist Baptists, and Free-will Baptists (English Anabaptists).

2. Because of the modern perversion of the doctrine of Liberty of Conscience, the historical teaching of each group has been altered, causing many other "Baptist" groups.

"Protestant" could also have different meanings. One meaning describes any church which is neither Catholic or Orthodox. Another meaning may be more restricting in applying to only those churches which teach defining doctrines of the Reformers, and hold to an Augustinian understanding of Salvation. Then you also have 'Main-line' Protestants, which clearly have a Reformation heritage, but now teach nothing except liberal, high-brow philosophy.

I usually use the second definition of Protestant. Using that definition, most Baptists today are not Protestant. So what are they?

Well, a good number of conservative Baptists are members of the Fundamentalist movement. They believe strongly in THE BIBLE ALONE (!!! not the same as the Prtstnt doctrine of Sola Scriptura!!!) , no creeds, no confessions, and no catechisms. Strangely enough, most "christian" literature today is written by Fundamentalists. This Baptists mainly come out of the Free-will Baptist tradition.


Other, less severe Baptists, may just be called Conservative Evangelicals. They are not quite as....loud as fundamentalists. They can usually play nice with both Methodists and Charismatics. They emphasize mission work, but care little about doctrine. They do not hold strictly to any confessional standard. This is the category in which where most Baptist fall.

Then there are Liberal Baptists, which are basically Presb. USA wantabees, but are a bit cuddlier. They like to embrace all, aid feminism, talk up self-esteem and being an individual. Though not usually numbered with the Main-line churches, their theology and practice is really similiar.

A rather small group are the Reformed Baptists. They stress correct doctrine, and while holding fast to Sola Scriptura, are confessional. They accept the three ancient creeds, have rather strict standards of confessional unity (the 1689 Confession) , and most times use old Puritan catechisms to instruct children and the converted. They observe the LORD's Day as the only Holy day (although may have other days or feasts of observation), believe in Sacramental graces, usually have a more formal liturgy, and are many times very stubborn and otherwise old-fashion.

These last three groups are descended from the English-Sepratist Baptists. I would probably say Reformed Baptists are the only group which could historically be called Protestant, but I may be bias.

I do not know much about Anabaptists (Mennonites, German Old Order Baptists, etc), except that they stress pratice more than doctrine. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Its good to remember that the spirit of Protestantism was not to found a new tradition, but to restore the old one. I think the only churches that can claim the name Protestant are those which strive to uphold the 5 Solas, and the importance of the Early Church Fathers as a guide to orthodox interpretation. Sadly, most "Baptists" today could care less about the Solas, or the Early Church Fathers.

Please forgive me if I offend; I was raised in a large Baptist denomination, and speak most of these out of sorrow, not anger.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Please forgive me if I offend; I was raised in a large Baptist denomination, and speak most of these out of sorrow, not anger.

No offense at all. You present some good points although I find it sad that a person of your age is so pessimistic about the current state of Christianity and has such longing for the "good 'ole days" where one was either Reformed or something less than.

Sadly, most "Baptists" today could care less about the Solas, or the Early Church Fathers.

I agree that this is a sad thing. The Baptist avoidance of anything resembling tradition has also resulted in an ignorance of a rich church history that we can draw many lessons from.

 

[puriteen18]

No offense at all. You present some good points although I find it sad that a person of your age is so pessimistic about the current state of Christianity and has such longing for the "good 'ole days" where one was either Reformed or something less than.

It's this stupid computer, can't express myself. I'm much more soft and cuddly in person. Most people are rather shocked to find out I'm reformed.

 

[costlygrace]

I don't consider myself a Protestant, but then I am Quaker, not exactly Baptist.

 

[puriteen18]

I don't consider myself a Protestant, but then I am Quaker, not exactly Baptist.

Off topic question, but do Quaker practice paedobaptism or credobaptism? I seem to remember that it is either Quakers or Shakers that do not baptize at all.

 

[Matthan]

The posts here have been wonderful, with a lot of Christian input into a very complex subject.

BjBarnett asked for proof -- sources for a claim of Original Baptist stemming directly from the original apostolic Christian Church that began in the First Century. To the best of my knowledge, there is no such written proof to be found. Why? Because persecutors destroyed all written records that might have existed.

How many people know that there have been several hundred "religious" wars fought? That's right!! Several Hundred "Religious" Wars!! (I will supply a partial list upon request. Just be forewarned that the list will indict one particular denomination above all others.) They were fought by "christians", and the victims were declared to be "heretics." That is what history records. Heretics secumbing to "christian" rule by force, or being killed for failure to change their beliefs.

Now, who were most of those "heretics?" You will not find it in any history book, but many of them were nothing more than simple Christians attempting to follow the original tenets of true Christianity. They were "declared heretic" simply because they did not chose to conform with what they considered to be the heretical beliefs of the all-powerful christian church that sought to engulf them. Their simple Scriptural beliefs meant more to them than life itself, and they were slaughtered by the hundreds and thousands (without resistence in many cases) rather than go against their simple (and biblical) Christian beliefs.

(As an adied, here is a question I would like everyone reading this thread to consider. Does anyone believe that a Christian has the right to mame or kill any other person simply because that person does not believe what the Christian believes?)

Anyway, it is the history of those wars that is the proof positive that Christianity did exist in spite of endless persecution by "christian" forces. It survived every conceivable form of persecution imagineable. And, for as long as that one particular denomination held absolute power, the persecutions continued.

When the absolute power finally disolved away, which occurred during and after the Reformation, those simple Christians still did not find a lot of solace. Virtually all of the Protestant denominations, and especially those designated as "official" religions of any particular country, also persecuted them mercilessly. But still, they managed to survive.

It wasn't until the 1700's that some attitudes of some denominations began to change. And it was Roger Williams, in Rhode Island, that finally gave Baptists a place where they were welcome to live and practice their simple Christianity without fear of persecution from other "christians."

I was born and raised in Maryland, the "Free State." (So named because it was the first state to announce publically that, while Catholicism was the official denomination, all other denominations were welcome there.) Well, not quite all. I find it more than a bit ironic that Baptists and Hugonots were forbidden from residency within the state, and only because of their religious beliefs.

Matthan <J><

 

[BT]

NO

 

[mesue]

Yes, I am.
I am Protestant in the truest sense of the word. I joined the Baptist church after leaving the church I grew up in.

 

[AJ]

ok just one quick question... What does bible thumping mean? lol

Bible Thumping is loosely used to describe Evangelical Christians... I have always thought of it when the pastor taps his finger on the Bible while preaching and talking about God's word.

I have been called a "Bible Thumper" here at work, because folks know that I am Christian. Guess I could be called a lot worse!

 

[LostnFound]

Nope. I asked one day for a Catholic to just call me a Christian instead of a protestant, QUOTE]



I figure I'll just keep calling you Uncle Bud. It just seems to fit so well!!