Are you Protestant?

[SumTinWong]

Baptists consider their history to range back to the origins of the Church.

Speak for yourself. This is not taught or believed in any of the local Baptist churches here in New York

 

[lismore]

Matthan, you are quite welcome to ask in The Ancient Way why we have icons. I would say so here but I am Orthodox and therefore unable to debate here. Suffice it to say for now, we do not believe God changed His mind about images.

Hi Matrona,

I have been to Athens and to the rock churches in cappadocia and I have to say that the Orthodox art is some of the most beautiful I have ever seen! Please dont be offended if some calls you an idol worhshipper etc. They are zealous and mean well

 

[S682]

I am not a protestant, I did not break away from the Catholic Church. I do not believe that Baptists are protestants either simply because we have NOT broken away from the Word. Whether we can trace ourselves back to the early churh or the reformation is irrelevant...the true break is from the Word. A good example of this would be Christian Science...if anyone is a protestant, it would be them.

I never liked the term "protestant" either. I think you're right about the Christian Science being more protestant. You could go on and say Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., you know, the latter day stuff that came about.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I never liked the term "protestant" either. I think you're right about the Christian Science being more protestant. You could go on and say Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., you know, the latter day stuff that came about.

What are these folks protesting? What does the term protestant mean to you?

Protestant

All these groups are from the Restorationism of the 1800s in the US. Are you trying to redefine the term protestant as a group originating during this period?

Seventh Day Adventists
Jehovah's Witness
Mormons
Christian Science

 

[jcright]

What are these folks protesting? What does the term protestant mean to you?

Protestant

All these groups are from the Restoration Movement in the 1800s in the US. Are you trying to redefine the term protestant as a group originating during this period?

Seventh Day Adventists
Jehovah's Witness
Mormons
Christian Science

To me a protestant is someone who goes against the Word of God. I would contend that we are not going against the Word of God and therefore we do not protest the true Church. However, a group like the Christian Scientists, of which I grew up in (so I know plenty about them), does go against the Word of God. If any one is a protestant, it would be them. I can't speak to the others you mentioned.

 

[Gold Dragon]

To me a protestant is someone who goes against the Word of God.

I have never heard of this definition of protestant and I don't believe I have ever seen it used this way. In fact, it is much more common to hear the word protestant as being "people of the book" since the doctrine of Sola Scriptura gained its strongest support during the Protestant Reformation.

Wikipedia - Protestant
....
Protestants are often considered to be another people 'of the book', in that they adhere to the text of the Bible, that they grew out of the enlightenment and universities, that they attracted learned intellectuals, professionals, and skilled tradesmen and silversmiths, that their belief is more abstracted than ritualized, and that the great dissemination of protestant beliefs occurred with the translation by Protestants into native tongues from Latin (Greek and Hebrew) with the new technology of the printing press. Protestants are also less fond of hierarchy, having relentlessly attacked the priestly cast and the Holy See's authority, and thus are closely associated with the local control and political democratization during the 16th and 17th century.
...

 

[Matrona]

Hi Matrona,

I have been to Athens and to the rock churches in cappadocia and I have to say that the Orthodox art is some of the most beautiful I have ever seen! Please dont be offended if some calls you an idol worhshipper etc. They are zealous and mean well

Thank you lismore! Nice to meet you.

 

[jcright]

I have never heard of this definition of protestant and I don't believe I have ever seen it used this way. In fact, it is much more common to hear the word protestant as being "people of the book" since the doctrine of Sola Scriptura gained its strongest support during the Protestant Reformation.

Shouldn't it be the definition? What does it matter if we protest the Catholic church? The only thing that matters is God's Word. The word is derogatory in intent...shouldn't that be saved for the group that aren't believers?

 

[Gold Dragon]

Shouldn't it be the definition?

I see no reason to change the understanding that most people have.

What does it matter if we protest the Catholic church?

It doesn't. It is simply an honest understanding of the history of the words we use so that others can understand what we are talking about. If you say that the word protestant means a green frog living in a meadow, nobody will understand what you are talking about.

The only thing that matters is God's Word. The word is derogatory in intent

Maybe you grew up in an environment where the word protestant was used primarily in a derogatory fashion, but that is not true in many other cases and the origin of the word.

...shouldn't that be saved for the group that aren't believers?

The terms Anabaptist and Methodist actually were used initially as derogatory names. They sorta stuck. Nobody says that they should be reserved for non-believers.

 

[jcright]

I see no reason to change the understanding that most people have.

It doesn't. It is simply an honest understanding of the history of the words we use so that others can understand what we are talking about. If you say that the word protestant means a green frog living in a meadow, nobody will understand what you are talking about.

Maybe you grew up in an environment where the word protestant was used primarily in a derogatory fashion, but that is not true in many other cases and the origin of the word.

Perhaps I was raised in a different environment...then again, I see the same outlook from some of the Catholics on CF. We are little children who are rebelling against our parents, in this case, the Catholic church. If it wasn't intended in a negative way, then why not call us the other believers? Why call us protestants? What exactly are we protesting? Would we really be called protestants if they thought we were protesting just the Catholic rules? I don't think so. Why is it so important to follow what they follow? Because they think they have true course where as we've stumbled off the path.

The terms Anabaptist and Methodist actually were used initially as derogatory names. They sorta stuck. Nobody says that they should be reserved for non-believers.

That's their battle

 

[SumTinWong]

What you don't understand is GD, that we do not want to be called that no matter if you think it is okay for us to be called that or not. The original meaning was deragatory, and the broader meaning is not acceptable by me.

The OPs question was; are you a protestant? My answer is still no. If you chosse to call me that, fine, if they choose to call me that so be it. I wish instead to be reffered to as a Christian, but there is a fat chance of that now isn't there?

 

[Gold Dragon]

Perhaps I was raised in a different environment...then again, I see the same outlook from some of the Catholics on CF. We are little children who are rebelling against our parents, in this case, the Catholic church.

I think it is pretty obvious why Catholics view protestants that way. It's all part of the "I'm right, they're wrong" syndrome expressed by both sides of all Christian schisms.

If it wasn't intended in a negative way, then why not call us the other believers? Why call us protestants? What exactly are we protesting? Would we really be called protestants if they thought we were protesting just the Catholic rules?

Why do you think it is Catholics who called us protestants and not protestants who first used the term?

Luther made his formal protest in 1517 for issues that all evangelicals (using a different term on purpose) probably agree were valid issues of protest. Many of those issues are no longer a point of contention, but fundamental issues like Sola Scriptura and the Priesthood of all believers are still areas of disagreement that modern evangelicals would identify with the original Protestant Reformers and thus fit under the umbrella of protestantism.

I don't think so. Why is it so important to follow what they follow? Because they think they have true course where as we've stumbled off the path?

Maybe both are on the true course with some unfortunate detours.

 

[Gold Dragon]

What you don't understand is GD, that we do not want to be called that no matter if you think it is okay for us to be called that or not. The original meaning was deragatory, and the broader meaning is not acceptable by me.

Don't worry, I won't call you protestant.

But I don't believe the original meaning was derogatory. Luther, Calvin and the other Reformers stood firm on the bible and protested against the Catholic Church of that time in a way that I am supportive of. The Catholic church has since responded to change some of the more egregious issues, but some conflicts obviously still exist. I do not formally protest against the Catholic Church about those issues, but I recognize that my understanding of faith is strongly tied to that stand made by the Protestant Reformers in the 1500s.

 

[jcright]

I think it is pretty obvious why Catholics view protestants that way. It's all part of the "I'm right, they're wrong" syndrome expressed by both sides of all Christian schisms.


Why do you think it is Catholics who called us protestants and not protestants who first used the term?

Luther made his formal protest in 1517 for issues that all evangelicals (using a different term on purpose) probably agree were valid issues of protest. Many of those issues are no longer a point of contention, but fundamental issues like Sola Scriptura and the Priesthood of all believers are still areas of disagreement that modern evangelicals would identify with the original Protestant Reformers and thus fit under the umbrella of protestantism.

My friend, you asked what we thought the word should mean. I would contend that the word should mean someone who protests the Word of God...which we are not. If that is not the understood definition, then I think it should be changed so that it is definition. Otherwise, the term is used for those that don't agree with the Catholic chruch which brings us back to what are we protesting? God or man? It doesn't matter if we protest man. However, as your source points out: "In a broader sense of the word, Protestantism is the collective name for numerous heresies, of Western European origin, that broke with the Roman Catholic Church...". Heresy being with protestant...and you don't see that as negative?

Maybe both are on the true course with some unfortunate detours.

Show me a church that never strays...one that isn't Jesus.

 

[Gold Dragon]

However, as your source points out: "In a broader sense of the word, Protestantism is the collective name for numerous heresies, of Western European origin, that broke with the Roman Catholic Church...". Heresy being with protestant...and you don't see that as negative?

Of course Catholics view the reformers negatively and heretical. They were challenging the authority of the Catholic Church.

Why do we need to view the reformers as heretical as well? I believe we stopped caring what the RCC considered heretical after the 1500s. It is also heretical not to consider the Deuterocanonicals as canon and it is heretical to say that Mary was not born by Immaculate Conception.

From our perspective, we should be proud that Luther, Calvin, et al stood firm on the bible and made their protest.

 

[jcright]

Of course Catholics view the reformers negatively and heretical. They were challenging the authority of the Catholic Church.

Why do we need to view the reformers as heretical as well? I believe we stopped caring what the RCC considered heretical after the 1500s. It is also heretical not to consider the Deuterocanonicals as canon and it is heretical to say that Mary was not born by Immaculate Conception.

From our perspective, we should be proud that Luther, Calvin, et al stood firm on the bible and made their protest.

Mary was born by immaculate conception?

 

[Gold Dragon]

Yes, it is commonly misunderstood that the Immaculate Conception is about Jesus' birth when in fact it is about Mary's birth.

Wikipedia - Immaculate Conception
Catholic Encyclopedia - Immaculate Conception

 

[SumTinWong]

Mary was born by immaculate conception?

That is the view and the belief of the Catholic church.

 

[jcright]

That is the view and the belief of the Catholic church.

Mary was born of immculate conception? I thought Jesus was.

 

[SumTinWong]

The Catholic church says(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm):
"In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary 'in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin.' "

This is not a belief held by any Baptist church that I am aware of.

What I think is amsing about this article is that on one hand anyone who says that Mary may have sinned they are just voicing private opinions, wheras others have spoken in graduated theological levels.

Anyway in my personal humble opinion this "dogma" is just another reason I am glad to be a Baptist.