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Is this about being a wife or a prostitute? I can't tell the difference...
It causes the relationship to be less meaningful and more about concentrating on actions you do because you have to. It's like the Pharisees it takes the love out of the actions a wife and husband do for each other. It replaces love with rules.
Good post
No he does not have a book coming out. What is so wrong with encouraging people to be intentional in their marriages? To intentionally study and understand the needs of their spouse and do the best they can to meet those needs? What great crime is there in that?
It's a legitimate topic, and I think it would get positive responses if someone else posted it. I think people are just having trouble taking you seriously after that polygamy post.
That said, I'm not sure I completely agree with the idea. Home should be a place to relax. You can't always be on full throttle. My husband is "intentional" at work, and he comes home tired. He can and does make an effort to engage with the me and the kids, help out with things. But if I expected that every day, he'd be burnt out. We've experimented with that routine before.
Now I'm going to tread cautiously on this next statement. My husband and I are both all too familiar with the "naggy wife" stereotype. We came from families with that dynamic, have colleagues with that dynamic. And it seems popular to encourage husband to be more accommodating, that if they would just be more attentive to their wives' needs, then the problems would go away. Problem is, I think people just raise their demands when needs get met. They don't appreciate it; they expect more. And it's true of many husbands in a different way. So maybe a good marriage is more about... adjusting your expectations, instead of burning yourself out trying to make a home better?
I don't know. I know there are tons of perspectives on this, and we are all probably envisioning different scenarios when defending our approach. My husband and I rate our marriage with "high satisfaction," and we achieve that by sticking to a routine and giving each other space.
I guess the hangup for me is the term "romantic". If you mean doing kind things for a person outside of something that is directed toward the bedroom, then sure men and women can both do those things for each other.
It would be like if you know your spouse likes a shoulder rub, then giving them a shoulder rub. Maybe they like a certain thing from the store and while you shopping you just buy it and surprise them with it. But while most guys would consider that a loving act from their wife, they would not consider it "romantic".
But for me and any of my guy friends from church or work, if you said a wife doing something "romantic" for us, we would translate that as "sexy". Like leaving a sexy note telling us about things she might want to do that night. Or surprising us with new lingerie, or flirting with us at a restaurant while we having dinner with other people. So we interpret "romance" from our wife as things that make us anticipate and look forward to something later happening in the bedroom.
Now maybe your husband is different and you know lots of men that look at it different, but that is my feeling and I have no guy friends who think differently about how a wife could "romance" her husband.
Now I'm going to tread cautiously on this next statement. My husband and I are both all too familiar with the "naggy wife" stereotype. We came from families with that dynamic, have colleagues with that dynamic. And it seems popular to encourage husband to be more accommodating, that if they would just be more attentive to their wives' needs, then the problems would go away. Problem is, I think people just raise their demands when needs get met. They don't appreciate it; they expect more. And it's true of many husbands in a different way. So maybe a good marriage is more about... adjusting your expectations, instead of burning yourself out trying to make a home better?.
In my world there is a difference between romantic and sexy. Romantic things don't need to lead to sexual things. Dating couples can do lots of romantic things without it leading to fornication. (Sex can also take place without being romantic, even between married couples.)
Perhaps you and the guys you know were not able to, but that leaves me wondering how you managed to get a girl interested in marrying you, if you didn't do anything romantic before marrying her? Or perhaps you did and it lead to fornication, or perhaps it was just a tease about what was to come after you married her? Not trying to insult you, just thinking out loud.
Wow that is not condescending in the least bit.
Men want more than sex, but they don't want less than sex. What that means is of course we men who love our wives want a companion to go through life with, to share in our hopes and dreams just like most women want. But we don't just want someone to talk to and go places with, we want someone to have sex with as well. I know there are women with high sex drives and men with low sex drives, but both of those are outside the norm(which I know you guys in this forum hate any kind of norms or generalizations, but that's reality).
I challenge you to present a survey that defies what I am saying. Any survey out there will show that while men and women may want the same things(like love,respect,companionship and yes sex) they come to these from a different perspective and when asked to rate the order of importance of each these things they ALWAYS come out different between the average man and the average woman.
When a person says "all you want is sex" to the person wanting the sex it is a revealing statement. In my experience it can mean these things:
1. The spouse wanting sex is not meeting the emotional and relationship needs of the spouse who is making the "all you want is sex" statement. In that case then the spouse wanting sex needs to communicate with and see what the issues are and do their best to fix them.
2. Sometimes though, the spouse who is asking for sex is actually doing their best to meet the emotional needs and connect with the other spouse, but the spouse who is making the "all you want is sex" statement is simply acting selfish. They don't need it(sex) as much and they really think the relationship is fine without it happening very often, and the other spouse should be just fine with that.
So in summary - "all it takes is sex to make you happy, or all you want is sex" can either be a legitimate cry for help in a relationship, or it can simply be someone wanting to hide behind their own selfishness.
I thought of this from another angle.
If a single lady said to most Christian or non-Christian men, I don't want to put out, I don't want to clean the house, and I don't care about my appearance and looking pretty. All I want is for you to talk with me, give me children and we will just figure out who does what around the house. You can have sex from time to time, when I feel like it, or when I think you have earned it by doing enough good deeds for me.
This would be the equivalent of a single man saying to the single ladies:
All I want is sex and for you to keep the house, look pretty and I don't want to have to talk to you, except when I feel like it. I don't want to take you out on dates, and I just want to you to sit there and be quiet.
Just like no man wants to hear "I married you for money" no woman wants to hear "I married you for sex."
Love and commitment are an important part of marriage and are commanded by God. There are many things we do "because we have to". We go to work, we take care of the kids, we pay our bills. These are all things that as spouses are duties we must fulfill.
I may be tired, or for a dozens reasons not feel like doing romantic things that my wife likes. But I do them because I know God wants me to, not always because I feel like doing them. I do them because, no matter how I might feel at certain time, I love my wife.
The same goes for a wife - its really that simple. A marriage that is based upon just doing whatever feel like at any give time, and just doing things(whatever those things are) when we feel like it will be a very problematic marriage.
This translates to many areas of life including going to church. Some Sunday mornings I just don't feel like getting up, getting the kids going and going to church. But I do it anyway because I know it pleases God and that is what he wants me to do. Once I get to church and hear music and God's Word, I feel great afterwards and I don't regret it. So yes its a duty, but its a duty that is also beneficial for me and my relationship with God.
The same goes for many things in marriage.
cerette,
Interesting point you raise with the distinction of before marriage and after marriage romance.
Yes I did plenty of romantic things before I was married(and before I had sex with my wife). All of my guy friends did. But most of us guys would fully admit that the romantic things we did were for three reasons:
1. We wanted to show her we loved her.
2. Even without sex, being romantic might a least get you a nice kiss or hug, or make out session.
3. We wanted to marry her, have a family with her and by extension be able to have sex with her
So yes before marriage romance can be completely divorced from the physical act of sex, but in our world(my friends and I) our sex drive did fuel our romance drive(whether we consciously knew it or not).
Don't misunderstand me - Whenever I buy my wife flowers(and yes I do more than just on our anniversary or her birthday) or buy her a nice a card, or do something else I know she likes that cold be considered romantic, I don't expect sex in return. I am just showing her I love her, (filling her love bank as some call it).
musingsofacac
If it is to catch your attention then to educate, inform, and encourage then I think that this thread can be valuable. I am not sure as to the spirit of this thread. I do appreciate that you respect the scriptures.
I agree with you 100% on this - we all face these issues in our marriage. Marriage goes in cycles, sometimes we are on the ball in one area, and dropping the ball in others. Marriage is not about being perfect toward one another - we never will be. Its about trying, its about putting in an effort to do our best toward our spouse.Every Christian married couple that I know that has been honest will admit that they have been lazy in their marriage/life at one time or another.
Your point 1 above sounds like it was romance without the sexy aspect...?
That sort of contradicts what you said earlier about romantic = sexy.
But I was positively surprised to read your # 1 above.
It's very condescending, actually. As was the original thought it was in response to.
Absolutely sex is one of the main reasons, but not the only reason, that men marry. I would argue it is on a higher priority for men than it is for most women(not ALL).By saying men want more than sex, but they don't want less, it clearly implies that you think men marry for sex. They'll be happy if they get more than sex, they'll be fine if they don't, but it's a deal breaker if they can't even get sex.
And it's not the generalities that irritate people, it's the absolutes, and this presumption that you know more about somebody than they themselves know.
As I alluded to in my previous statement, using "always" when comes to surveys or almost anything else would be a mistake and I admit that on my part. I would also agree you have to look at the source of the survey(i.e. - playboy vs webmd). However when you look at the vast majority(not all, but majority) of surveys, whether they be of married couples, or marriage counselors they come down on the side of men placing a much higher value on sex than women. I have been having to work extra hours for my jobs, but next week if I have time I will produce for you evidence from reputable sources(not playboy...ect) that demonstrate this.Really, because the survey I pulled off of WebMD's subscription side is that a survey of 4,000 men and women have the same top 5 needs in a relationship, just in different orders. And sex came in at number 4 on both men and women's surveys... So apparently this "men ALWAYS rate sex as the most important" nonsense is just that... Nonsense.
That isn't to say that I didn't see sources that said that men didn't value sex above all in a relationship... While I'm sure the editorial bloggers of such fine institutions as Men's Health, Playboy, and various other bloggers know more than the folks at the Kinsey Institute, WebMD, and are generally more informed than the census of the UK... Ok, I'm sure they're not.
I would agree that it is possible to put too much emphasis on sex if you would agree that it is possible to put too little emphasis on sex. Anything can be overdone. I challenge you to show a quote where I said "sex is the most important part of marriage" - I never said that. Again another straw man you have built.Or perhaps the spouse is putting too much emphasis on sex, too much pressure on the other spouse, or has come to a forum and declared that sex is the most important part of a marriage, effectively marginalizing any sort of marital dynamic beyond "I want sex, your job is to provide it."
No man should ever be afraid of telling his wife that sex is a defining attribute of who he is as a man. He should never be ashamed to tell his wife that sex is the primary way he receives love from her(not the only way, but the primary way). In the same way that woman should never be afraid to tell her husband that emotional intimacy and sharing feelings between herself and her husband is a primary way she feels loved.Or it can be a guy who's made his wife feel like an unpaid prostitute because he's just told her the thing he values most, or even primarily, is sex. Just like no man wants to hear "I married you for money" no woman wants to hear "I married you for sex."
Again, I'm not sure why a man would hear the comments this pastor made and not get ridiculously offended. Women need companionship and to be treated well. All men need is a pretty face and sex. I'm not sure why a man would be happy being summed up as so utterly shallow and superficial.
I'm sure there are many who disagree - including me. I absolutely love my husband as a man, as a husband, as a lover, as my best friend. But if he were (God forbid!) unable to perform sexually, it would not change the nature of my love for him; that is, my marital love.I have continually said there is more to marriage than sex, but sex is a required component of marital love. Sex is to marriage what tires are to a car. Tires are not the totality of the car, but tires are required to make the car move.
Marital love is gifted with sex. Sex is God's wedding gift to a married couple. Marital love is what draws people together to marry, and whether they ever open that wedding gift or not is immaterial. They can still share marital love without sex.Marital love involves more than sex, but marital love without sex is not marital love - it might be some other kind of love, but its not marital love.
No man should ever be afraid of telling his wife that sex is a defining attribute of who he is as a man.
He should never be ashamed to tell his wife that sex is the primary way he receives love from her(not the only way, but the primary way). In the same way that woman should never be afraid to tell her husband that emotional intimacy and sharing feelings between herself and her husband is a primary way she feels loved.
But if a man says that in addition to a woman being a Godly Christian woman, and one who shares his beliefs about marriage and family, a honest woman of good character, that he is also looking for certain physical features and the right attitude toward sexuality and her appearance there is nothing shallow or wrong about that.
Well I don't think its condescending to state norms(and there are always exceptions to norms). The norm means under normal circumstances a man places a much higher value on sex in a marriage relationship than a woman. However there are exceptions and changes for this norm like when women age sometimes their libido increases and their husband's decreases resulting in the woman wanting sex more than her husband.
Absolutely sex is one of the main reasons, but not the only reason, that men marry. I would argue it is on a higher priority for men than it is for most women(not ALL).
Your second statement, you implied I was saying a man would be happy if he only got sex is not what I meant by "but not less than sex". What I meant is you could marry a girl, share common life values, even share interests like church, sports or music or other things. You could want the same things for a family. But if she does not want to have sex, or rarely wants to have sex, or is frigid about sex and all those other things are right most men will not be satisfied with that marriage. A lot of men endure that kind of marriage, but they are not happy about it.
So yes we want more than sex, we want someone to share our life with, to have common goals with, but we want more than a companion and mother to our children, we want a lively, regular sexual relationship with someone who respects and tries to meet our sexual needs.
In regard to generalities, I will agree it is mistake to use the word "ALWAYS" as I did below and I will address that later. But aside from me saying "always" in regard to surveys, I have NEVER said ANYWHERE on this forum or other that men ALWAYS want sex more than women. That is a straw man you have built and continue to easily knock down, because its not true of what I have said.
As I alluded to in my previous statement, using "always" when comes to surveys or almost anything else would be a mistake and I admit that on my part. I would also agree you have to look at the source of the survey(i.e. - playboy vs webmd). However when you look at the vast majority(not all, but majority) of surveys, whether they be of married couples, or marriage counselors they come down on the side of men placing a much higher value on sex than women. I have been having to work extra hours for my jobs, but next week if I have time I will produce for you evidence from reputable sources(not playboy...ect) that demonstrate this.
I have read many many relationship books over the years trying to understand my wife's nature and wants(first and second) and have been to marriage counselors who themselves have counseled hundreds of couples. The consensus opinion(majority) is that men typically place a much higher value on sex, they give and receive love through sex much more than a woman does.
But I understand you won't believe me until I produce the evidence. This is why I like to discuss these things with people who have opposing view points, because it makes me have to put all the things I have studied together and then I can use it to help other Christians who struggle in these areas.
I would agree that it is possible to put too much emphasis on sex if you would agree that it is possible to put too little emphasis on sex. Anything can be overdone. I challenge you to show a quote where I said "sex is the most important part of marriage" - I never said that. Again another straw man you have built.
I have continually said there is more to marriage than sex, but sex is a required component of marital love. Sex is to marriage what tires are to a car. Tires are not the totality of the car, but tires are required to make the car move. Marital love involves more than sex, but marital love without sex is not marital love - it might be some other kind of love, but its not marital love.
No man should ever be afraid of telling his wife that sex is a defining attribute of who he is as a man. He should never be ashamed to tell his wife that sex is the primary way he receives love from her(not the only way, but the primary way). In the same way that woman should never be afraid to tell her husband that emotional intimacy and sharing feelings between herself and her husband is a primary way she feels loved.
I realize there are other ways we can feel loved as well. I like the Five Love languages and my wife and I gone over it to learn what our languages are. My primary language is touch(hugs, sitting on couch together, holding hands). My wife is not a touchy person, her primary love language is acts of service. So me doing the dishes, or going down and doing a load of laundry, or going to store and getting her something she needed makes her feel loved. When I do these things they are big deposits in her love bank.
But in addition to acts of service, my wife as woman by her own admission places a great emphasis on emotional intimacy and us talking. I have to make a concerted effort to do this as well.
And for me in addition to needing to cuddle up with my wife to watch tv, I also like random hugs from her, or a kiss on the head. Those little things mean a lot to me. But she knows because I am a man the biggest way I receive love from her is when she initiates sex with me. That is huge deposit in my love bank.
So no matter how you try to paint me into a corner, I do think there is more to marital love than sex, but I don't think there is marital love without sex(it may still be love, but not a marital love).
The reason we would not get offended is because we are men so we understand exactly what he is saying. In the same way that very few women, if any in our church would get offended by someone saying a woman while she may also want sex, places a higher importance on romance and emotional intimacy than men typically do.
I never said and neither did my Pastor say "All men need is a pretty face and sex". But I think what bothers you, is that we place such a high emphasis on it, rather than a total emphasis on it. Yes for most men, we place a high value on the physical.
For instance after I was divorced I had several unmarried women in my same age group(early to late 30s) be-friend me at my church. We actually shared a lot in common about beliefs in traditional marriage and our faith. One of them I actually went out to dinner with a few times as friends. But I had no physical attraction to her, or to the others in my church so I needed to look elsewhere.
Do I think I was in the minority of men for wanting the physical attraction as well? Of course not. And no its not shallow, or petty - it how God created as us as men. Most men place great value on being physically attracted to a woman, what we view is attractive may be different from man to man, but we each need certain things to be there on that woman. We also need to know that the woman understands how important sexuality is to us, and especially if we have both been married before we need to discuss before marriage if there were sexual problems before and what they were.
So yes men also need companionship and to be treated well, but men also typically place a great value on the sexual attitude of the woman and her "prettiness".
I would agree with you that there are shallow men out there that just marry women for their looks and what they might do in bed, nothing more - that is utterly shallow.
I think you would also agree with me that their are women who marry men only for their money - equally shallow.
But if a man says that in addition to a woman being a Godly Christian woman, and one who shares his beliefs about marriage and family, a honest woman of good character, that he is also looking for certain physical features and the right attitude toward sexuality and her appearance there is nothing shallow or wrong about that.
Well I don't think its condescending to state norms(and there are always exceptions to norms).
Maybe it is for you, but I don't think it is for all, or even most men. When we got married, sex was at the bottom of reasons we got married, if anything but because we were having it already. The same held true for my first marriage... Getting married for sex wasn't on anybody's radar as a reason for why to get married. Considering over 95% of the population has had sex with their spouse before marriage, so there's no special gain in sex via marriage that doesn't exist before it.Absolutely sex is one of the main reasons, but not the only reason, that men marry. I would argue it is on a higher priority for men than it is for most women(not ALL).
So it's like I said, what you're saying is that you can have everything in common in the world, but that's the bonus to the core want of sex. If you're with a woman who's sharing common life values with you, it doesn't matter if she's not putting out because "men" won't be happy. You are literally saying that the most important element is sex and that men are so simple and shallow that as long as they're getting that, the rest of the common beliefs, interests, and compatibilities are merely perks.yes we want more than sex, we want someone to share our life with, to have common goals with, but we want more than a companion and mother to our children, we want a lively, regular sexual relationship with someone who respects and tries to meet our sexual needs.
So in an effort to understand your wife, you spoke to other people about what men want? Ignoring why you'd learn more about men to better understand a woman, why wouldn't you, if you wanted to learn about what your wife wanted, go ask your wife?I have read many many relationship books over the years trying to understand my wife's nature and wants(first and second) and have been to marriage counselors who themselves have counseled hundreds of couples. The consensus opinion(majority) is that men typically place a much higher value on sex, they give and receive love through sex much more than a woman does.
You have said, repeatedly, that sex is the primary purpose in marriage for men, you said in this post that a man can be happy without companionship, but not without sex. Again, this isn't a strawman, this is your stance reflected back to you and you realizing how silly it sounds.I would agree that it is possible to put too much emphasis on sex if you would agree that it is possible to put too little emphasis on sex. Anything can be overdone. I challenge you to show a quote where I said "sex is the most important part of marriage" - I never said that. Again another straw man you have built.
And just above, you were trying to get us to believe that you didn't say sex was the most important thing, but here, you're saying if there's no sex, you're not really enjoying marital love. When you say that people who're married but not having sex "might" be experiencing some kind of love, but it's not marital love, you're saying that sex is the be all and end all to a marriage for a man, that love is solely defined by sex. When you tie up love with sex and say one can't have marital love without the other, there's a biiiiig problem. And that's not the viewpoint that any man I've ever, EVER met has had about sex and marriage. Most men tend to think higher of their sex than that.I have continually said there is more to marriage than sex, but sex is a required component of marital love. Sex is to marriage what tires are to a car. Tires are not the totality of the car, but tires are required to make the car move. Marital love involves more than sex, but marital love without sex is not marital love - it might be some other kind of love, but its not marital love.
Yes, you should be terribly afraid if you're saying that sex is a defining attribute of your being as a man, and if you're telling your wife that it's the primary way you feel love, that's a big problem. Huge problem. It's saying your marriage is shallow, conditional. It means if there's a reason you're not having sex to the frequency that you decide you require, your risking your marital security and you're telling your wife you'll love her less or won't love her in a marital sense. There are a million legitimate reasons to not have sex and to say that not having sex risks your love, you're setting her and yourself and your marriage to fail.No man should ever be afraid of telling his wife that sex is a defining attribute of who he is as a man. He should never be ashamed to tell his wife that sex is the primary way he receives love from her(not the only way, but the primary way). In the same way that woman should never be afraid to tell her husband that emotional intimacy and sharing feelings between herself and her husband is a primary way she feels loved.
You say there's more to marital love than sex, but if you don't have sex you don't have marital love, and you probably don't have love at all. So you love your wife for sex, the rest is nice, but if you don't have the sex, you're not going to love her as a wife and probably not love her at all. That's what you're saying.So no matter how you try to paint me into a corner, I do think there is more to marital love than sex, but I don't think there is marital love without sex(it may still be love, but not a marital love).
It's funny, because my husband's family is over for a visit and while the guys play games, I'm making some food for my blog and checking in on various forums. I read your post aloud and all of the men, Christian, church-going men, had a huge laugh over it. Not a single one of them could relate to the idea that sex is the main focus of the duty of a wife and that love hinges on sexual availability. My brother-in-law, who goes to church every week, said that it was churches teaching that this is 1950 where a woman's duty was to have kids and sex to keep her man is why he had to switch churches. His cousin said he hates it when he hears guys talk like that because it paints all men as sex-crazed maniacs who can't think or function beyond the idea that they need sex. His other cousin, who's wife is in Germany serving in the military, agreed that it was insulting.The reason we would not get offended is because we are men so we understand exactly what he is saying. In the same way that very few women, if any in our church would get offended by someone saying a woman while she may also want sex, places a higher importance on romance and emotional intimacy than men typically do.
Your saying that men are driven by sex and a pretty woman doesn't bother me at all, simply because I know it's largely not true. More importantly, it's not true for me and my marriage, so even it was true, the fact it isn't true in my dynamic is enough for me. Yes, I think that claim is obnoxious and an excuse to be demanding without compromise, I think it paints men as simpleminded and weak, which I don't understand why more men aren't bothered by that, but I'm not offended by it. The simple fact is I, like I think most women, if we were confronted by a guy with such an attitude would probably turn on our heels and walk in the other direction. There aren't a lot of people, men or women, who'd put up with a partner who defines love so narrowly and superficially. And a lot of Christian women can spot a guy for what they are when they're the type who exploits God and the Bible as a irrefutable reason to have copious amounts of sex without the irritation of being told no.I never said and neither did my Pastor say "All men need is a pretty face and sex". But I think what bothers you, is that we place such a high emphasis on it, rather than a total emphasis on it. Yes for most men, we place a high value on the physical.
Actually, that is quite shallow and petty, but...Do I think I was in the minority of men for wanting the physical attraction as well? Of course not. And no its not shallow, or petty - it how God created as us as men.
So yes men also need companionship and to be treated well, but men also typically place a great value on the sexual attitude of the woman and her "prettiness".
Which reaffirms my response above, and contradicts what you think is just "boys being boys."I would agree with you that there are shallow men out there that just marry women for their looks and what they might do in bed, nothing more - that is utterly shallow.
To say you want certain qualities in a spouse isn't shallow or wrong, to treat women like participants in a dog and pony show, where she's got to put out and look pretty and if she so happens to make a decent companion then you'll take her home, with the understanding that you can only experience marital love if she gives you sex to your desired frequency/needs, and if she doesn't, it's not marital love and though you "might" love her another way... Yes, that is shallow. And to say that God made you that way, it's not only not true, it's you using God as an excuse to act in what you know is an unGodly way while still self-serving your needs before all others.But if a man says that in addition to a woman being a Godly Christian woman, and one who shares his beliefs about marriage and family, a honest woman of good character, that he is also looking for certain physical features and the right attitude toward sexuality and her appearance there is nothing shallow or wrong about that.
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