Are you for or against the death penalty?

[Radrook]

No, those are your words not mine. I accept the biblical canon recognised by my church and approach it seriously with respect to each of the genres and literary styles utilised. Contrary to popular misconception, the Bible is not one book and neither is it a book that is always prescriptive. Just as often, if not more so, it is descriptive simply describing what people did at what time. The Bible describing what people thought in that time does not necessarily make it prescriptive for today. Exegetical interpretation involves many elements including context, subtext, intratextaul work, intertextual work, and historical criticism.

That viewpoint forces a rejection of a host of scriptures in the NT which are related to the OT. So ultimately it has the same effect as writing ones own version of the Bible with certain chosen parts missing.

 

[Sketcher]

The Apostle Paul of all people, endorsed it in Romans 13:4. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me.

 

[twinserk]

Let me know when you follow all of the other laws in Leviticus, Deuteronomy, an Numbers. No mixing fabrics, no eating shellfish, no tattoos, no shaving the sides of the head or trimming the edges of a beard etc. That'd be interesting to take inventory. Do you just pick and choose?

I can understand how you're seeking to discredit me by bringing up other laws you think I'm not observing. But, as it happens, I don't mix those fabrics, I don't eat seafood, I don't have tattoos, and keep God's law as best I can.

Pope Francis and you are just expressing your personal opinions, rather than the will of God. Which, should be a major red flag for the catholics.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.​

 

[Raphael Jauregui]

I can understand how you're seeking to discredit me by bringing up other laws you think I'm not observing. But, as it happens, I don't mix those fabrics, I don't eat seafood, I don't have tattoos, and keep God's law as best I can.

Pope Francis and you are just expressing your personal opinions, rather than the will of God. Which, should be a major red flag for the catholics.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.​

I'm not trying to discredit you; however, you implied I disregard the Bible. I do not anymore than you do is my point. We both accept it, and the reality is that interpretations are not always going to be mutually congruent.

You are also expressing your opinion just as I am and just as Pope Francis did, and that's my point by asking if we all follow all the laws. I am convicted in my opposition to the death penalty. I do not think that God instituted it; it was instituted by humans whose experienced, limited to their context, thought of it as being divinely instituted.

 

[pshun2404]

I think that if a violent offender is a repeater (rape, murder, pedophilia, etc.) they should never be released EVER and for those states that deem it appropriate to execute these I have no quarrel. But a person convicted only once should not be killed because we are often wrong and about 20% of the time they were innocent.

 

[Raphael Jauregui]

That viewpoint forces a rejection of a host of scriptures in the NT which are related to the OT. So ultimately it has the same effect as writing ones own version of the Bible with certain chosen parts missing.

It's not a rejection; it's an acknowledgement of the multiplicity of genres in the different biblical books, and it is a recognition of the exegetical issues involved when reading scripture.

 

[-V-]

about 20% of the time they were innocent.

Reference needed.

 

[jeffinjapan]

In modern society there is no reason for the death penalty. Violent criminals can be separated from society for life so no need to expose innocent people to the death chambers; and with a corrupt and violent criminal justice system, especially in America, the death penalty should NOT be an option.

 

[twinserk]

I'm not trying to discredit you; however, you implied I disregard the Bible. I do not anymore than you do is my point. We both accept it, and the reality is that interpretations are not always going to be mutually congruent.

You are also expressing your opinion just as I am and just as Pope Francis did, and that's my point by asking if we all follow all the laws. I am convicted in my opposition to the death penalty. I do not think that God instituted it; it was instituted by humans whose experienced, limited to their context, thought of it as being divinely instituted.

"Interpretations"? If we're all just going to spin scripture in our preferred way, then there's no point in reading it. We have to take it at face value, or define the context with other scripture verses that clarify. There is no "interpretation" of:

Numbers 35:31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.
​

God's intention is clear and simple. I'm not stating my opinion, I'm repeating the words of God. That's the difference between you and me, and Pope Francis and I.

Your conviction, as well as Pope Francis', is unfounded, and merely an expression of your personal feelings. Your beliefs regarding this aren't supported by scripture. You're deceiving yourself into believing what you prefer to believe. And at that rate, why bother reading the bible?

 

[Dartman]

And, as already pointed out, in the Matthew passages Jesus is talking about our personal day to day relationships, not criminal justice.

Yes, as already pointed out, the NT is designed for personal day to day relationships, not for the governing of a nation. It is designed to guide ANY gender, race, nationality no matter which government they find themselves under.
In stark contrast, the Mosaic Law was specifically designed to govern the nation of Israel.

Until Jesus establishes his government at his coming, there are only "non-christian or evil governments".

Where do you get that from?

First, show me any Scripture that calls one of the governments of the world rightous.

Second, every reliable source, from history and current events, reveals all worldly governments are NOT christian!
More specifically Scripture, explains that the nations of the world are opposed to Jehovah/YHVH God;
Ps 2:1-3 Why do the nations rage, and the peoples meditate a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against Jehovah, and against His anointed, (saying),
3 Let us break their bonds asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

If you pay taxes, vote, or serve on a jury, you're participating in government.

Pay taxes ... nope, Jesus commanded to "render unto Cesar that which is Cesar's".
Vote, serve on a jury .... I agree .... so I don't vote, or serve on juries .. or any other active participation in the worldly government.
The governments of this world are like the Titanic ... they are going down. It's not a matter of "if" ... it's merely "when".
My job is NOT to worry about who's the captain of the Titanic.
My job is to find a TRUE, SOUND lifeboat ... and then to help everyone I can get on THAT boat!

 

[-V-]

First, show me any Scripture that calls one of the governments of the world rightous.

I don't need to. YOU have claimed all governments must be evil. YOU need to back that claim up.

Second, every reliable source, from history and current events, reveals all worldly governments are NOT christian!
More specifically Scripture, explains that the nations of the world are opposed to Jehovah/YHVH God;
Ps 2:1-3 Why do the nations rage, and the peoples meditate a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against Jehovah, and against His anointed, (saying),
3 Let us break their bonds asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

Poetry taken out of context doesn't prove every government system is anti-God.

Your position on governments also flies in the face of Paul's words in Romans 13:4, saying government is a "minister of God", and to resist them is "opposing the ordinance of God" (verse 2).

And you also defy the apostle Peter:
"Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God" - 1 Peter 2:13-15.

Pay taxes ... nope, Jesus commanded to "render unto Cesar that which is Cesar's".

Then Jesus commanded to participate with government.

You can't get around the *FACT* that the death penalty can NOT in and of itself be evil. If it is, then God is evil for ordering its use in ancient Israel. And the apostle Paul is evil for endorsing its use in Romans 13. There is NOTHING in what Paul said indicating governments were evil in using their God-given authority against criminals.

 

[Dartman]

I don't need to. YOU have claimed all governments must be evil. YOU need to back that claim up.

I did, with Psa 2, and there are others.

Poetry taken out of context doesn't prove every government system is anti-God.

Your skepticism calls into question whether we have enough common ground for a meaningful discussion. Psa 2 is MUCH more that poetry, it is Jehovah's words.

Your position on governments also flies in the face of Paul's words in Romans 13:4, saying government is a "minister of God", and to resist them is "opposing the ordinance of God" (verse 2).

Have you read much of the Bible? There are MANY passages explaining God's use of worldly governments.. and NONE of them are/were righteous. You're misconstruing the fact that they are being used by God, with the notion that they must be righteous! That's not what the text states. They are a tool.

And you also defy the apostle Peter:
"Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God" - 1 Peter 2:13-15.

Again, you misunderstand! I have already stated, the Christian MUST be a GOOD citizen!! That's a VERY different role than being PART of the Government!! The NT explains REPEATEDLY the Christians responsibility to honor, respect and obey (unless there is a conflict with God's laws.. (Acts 5:39)

Then Jesus commanded to participate with government.

Hogwash.
Jesus commanded to comply with .... NOT to participate as a part of ... the governments.

 

[-V-]

I have already stated, the Christian MUST be a GOOD citizen!!

But you refuse to vote or serve on juries. Oh, that must conveniently not be part of what YOU say a "good citizen" is.

 

[Dartman]

But you refuse to vote or serve on juries.

Or serve in the military, or be a government official, or a policeman.

Oh, that must conveniently not be part of what YOU say a "good citizen" is.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

 

[-V-]

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Sure, when men say you have to do something that God says you shouldn't do. Yet you've given nothing showing God has ordered Christians to have no participation in government.

Once again, you can not say the death penalty is in and of itself evil. Otherwise, you are claiming God is evil for commanding Israel to use it in their criminal justice system.

 

[SkyWriting]

No study has ever shown that executions deter violent crime.

Perhaps it is a response to violent crime and not a show.

 

[SkyWriting]

cause I KNOW I was wicked and deserved death ten thousand times over

We all do.

 

[victorinus]

I am against killing babies before they are born -
what say you?

 

[Dartman]

Sure, when men say you have to do something that God says you shouldn't do. Yet you've given nothing showing God has ordered Christians to have no participation in government.

LOL ... of course I have. You merely deny it. Jesus and the apostles taught absolute nonviolence. MANY government positions require violence as one component of that role.
God commands us to be "strangers and pilgrims" on the earth, and within that role, to be subject to the government.... NEVER asking us to be OF the government! Jesus commands us to be IN the world, but not OF the world (John 17:14-18). God commands us to "come out from among them, and be ye separate" (2 Cor 6:14-18) Rom 13:1-8 is talking to the Christian as a SUBJECT of the government, NOT a participant IN the government.... expressing that God USES governments as tools, exactly like He used Egypt, and the Assyrians, and Babylon, and Greece, and Rome, as "swords" and "razors" against Israel, when they were wicked.

Once again, you can not say the death penalty is in and of itself evil. Otherwise, you are claiming God is evil for commanding Israel to use it in their criminal justice system.

Go back and reread my posts! We agree on this point! You are absolutely on my side on this! Not only did God command the death penalty in the Mosaic Law .... with VERY judicious mercy .... He commanded it immediately after the flood .... which God brought on the world because they were so violent.

The New Testament is a VERY different set of commandments from Jehovah/YHVH God. In the NT context, the Christian is absolutely prohibited from ANY violence, and must completely trust God, AND God's use of governments, as HIS tool;

Rom 12:17-13:7 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

 

[JoeP222w]

Since God enacted the death penalty and gave the state the authority to execute the death penalty, I have no problem with it. It is not a good thing to oppose God.

Too many innocent people have been killed after being wrongly convicted and wrongly sentenced to the death penalty.

That may or may not be the case.

On top of that, society does not have the right to take life to show that taking life is wrong.

Then you would be in opposition to God.

Romans 13:1-7 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. (2) Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. (3) For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, (4) for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. (5) Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. (6) For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. (7) Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.


Whatever the Pope says is really not relevant to the believer in Jesus Christ. The Pope is not the head of Christianity, does not speak for Christianity, does not represent Christianity and is anti-Christ. The Pope is in open rebellion to God in his blasphemous religion and by even the existence of his office of "Pope".