Are you antitheists

[Paradoxum]

Yet you can find feminism in secular circles promote other hysterical values.

I agree. I also oppose other false things. Does that contradict me?

In the end I think it's just shuffling the deck. Bad people will always find ways to control people, and even set up puritanical values under secular settings. Even if the new targets are different.

I'd say some ideas capture people more. Non-religious bad ideas wont necessarily capture people as much as historic ideas. Also, many of the bad ideas may be based on the religion anyway, rather than the person.

I know I was against a certain type of love when religious, but now I'm not. It was religion.

 

[MehGuy]

I agree. I also oppose other false things. Does that contradict me?

I'm not sure why it would contradict you? You can at least acknowledge that there are plenty of atheist jerks and unseemly ideas floating around in secular communities too.

I'd say some ideas capture people more. Non-religious bad ideas wont necessarily capture people as much as historic ideas. Also, many of the bad ideas may be based on the religion anyway, rather than the person.

Non-religious ideas cannot have a historic basis as well? I don't see why history really matters. Within a short time period concepts of race became very important and damaging. Foul ideas will always spring forth, and they often don't take a long time to become ingrained within people.

I know I was against a certain type of love when religious, but now I'm not. It was religion.

Lol, there is much more to worry about whether or not someone is for or against a certain type of "love".

 

[Paradoxum]

I'm not sure why it would contradict you? You can at least acknowledge that there are plenty of atheist jerks and unseemly ideas floating around in secular communities too.

Obviously.

Non-religious ideas cannot have a historic basis as well? I don't see why history really matters. Within a short time period concepts of race became very important and damaging. Foul ideas will always spring forth, and they often don't take a long time to become ingrained within people.

Some non-religious ideas are wrong too. So I'm anti them and religion too. Do you agree with that?

Lol, there is much more to worry about whether or not someone is for or against a certain type of "love".

It was an example, but I'd think not being discriminated against is kind of important.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

It has been suggested that atheist is synonymous with antitheist.

I'd like to know how many antitheists are here.

I'm not opposed to theism, I just don't see any support for it other than a desire to believe. I don't have the desire nor do I see any objective reason to accept it so, I'm an atheist.

There are theistic concepts that I might outright reject and oppose on a moral basis but I don't see theism itself as inherently bad.

 

[MehGuy]

Obviously.

Just making sure we're on the same page here. I think it helps to occasionally state such benchmarks within a debate even if many of them are probably pretty obvious.

It's good that you acknowledge that at least theists and non-theists can both comprise of toxic people at times. I'm still wondering how taking theism out of the equation will make things ultimately better.

Some non-religious ideas are wrong too. So I'm anti them and religion too. Do you agree with that?

Sorry if I'm misreading you, but why lump religion altogether?

If that's what you're saying, no I do not agree with that.

I'll argue against toxic things in religious circles, but it's not even close enough to warrant calling myself an ant-theist or thinking the world is going to be better once religion is done away with.

It was an example, but I'd think not being discriminated against is kind of important.

And discrimination exists within the secular world as well.

Heck I know of atheists who still discriminate against that type of "love". Lol.

 

[Freodin]

Why not? You don't think it justifies oppressive or authoritarian positions?

In specific instances. Not in general.

 

[Larniavc]

I just don't see any support for it other than a desire to believe.

I often think that this get incorrectly interpreted as deep down belief in God and acting only to deny His existence.

The initiation of this thread was based on that misapprehension.

 

[Wolfe]

Typically on the internet, Atheist put off this antitheist vibe.
I've even seen it in these forums.

I think rather Atheist are arrogant, and insulting towards Christians, more often than not.
You can hardly go a debate without some back handed insult, or passive aggressive jab.
But not really Antitheist.
I'm going off personal experience, and what I've witnessed. Obviously you can't generalize an entire group of people.

I think generally, among the Atheist who are more toxic, it's not an antitheism they display, it's an antichristianity.

Although if I may answer from my time as an Atheist, no I wasn't Antitheist.
I always viewed religion as anything else, something to study, and learn from.
Much like History, there is a lot of wisdom in religion, stuff you can use.

I never viewed it as wildly impossible, or silly.
Because compared to Atheism, the view isn't anymore silly, or out there, than the universe coming out of nothing. So I never saw it fair to call it stupid, though many do.

What everybody needs to learn, is to respect the beliefs of others, approach them with respect, and if you're going to have a discussion with them, have it calmly, and intellectually.
You do nothing for either of your groups if you do the opposite.

That's just my two cents though, take it or leave it.

 

[Moral Orel]

Most of the time the rotten apples will be rotten apples regardless.

What made them rotten apples to begin with though? This kind of thinking diminishes the influence that people have on one another. Put into a religious context, people trust their pastors to read the Bible for them and tell them what it means way too often. I'm not pinning things on religion in general, mind you, but some people wouldn't be rotten if it weren't for their religious influences. A kid that grows up going to Westboro is going to be different than if he grew up going to some liberal Unitarian church. And I think that's going to be the case most of the time.

People aren't born rotten and then choose to go to a rotten church. Rotten churches churn out rotten people, and I don't think many theists would disagree with that sentiment either. Religion isn't the only place this happens, but religion does make it really, really easy.

 

[Wolfe]

What made them rotten apples to begin with though? This kind of thinking diminishes the influence that people have on one another. Put into a religious context, people trust their pastors to read the Bible for them and tell them what it means way too often. I'm not pinning things on religion in general, mind you, but some people wouldn't be rotten if it weren't for their religious influences. A kid that grows up going to Westboro is going to be different than if he grew up going to some liberal Unitarian church. And I think that's going to be the case most of the time.

People aren't born rotten and then choose to go to a rotten church. Rotten churches churn out rotten people, and I don't think many theists would disagree with that sentiment either. Religion isn't the only place this happens, but religion does make it really, really easy.

I agree that certain churches utter hate speech, and desire nothing but to poison the minds of the people who attend their church, to push their personal narrative.

But I also disagree, I believe that most people who are rotten, Theist or not, are rotten because they're rotten.
Not because of things they are taught, as the saying goes, you don't have to teach a man to hate.

 

[MehGuy]

What made them rotten apples to begin with though? This kind of thinking diminishes the influence that people have on one another. Put into a religious context, people trust their pastors to read the Bible for them and tell them what it means way too often. I'm not pinning things on religion in general, mind you, but some people wouldn't be rotten if it weren't for their religious influences. A kid that grows up going to Westboro is going to be different than if he grew up going to some liberal Unitarian church. And I think that's going to be the case most of the time.

How common is a religious community anywhere near as rotten as the Westboro baptist church? I don't see why there isn't equally rare secular community equivalents. Some people are drawn to hate, and sadly such communities will steer impressionable children into that direction. Although I'd think if they had any decency they'd grow out of it when they're adults. I know the Westboro Baptist Church has had a problem with such kids eventually shrugging the faith off and going their own way.

People aren't born rotten and then choose to go to a rotten church.

Why wouldn't there be? You don't think rotten people who happen to have a religious/spiritual side find rotten communities that speak for them?

Rotten churches churn out rotten people, and I don't think many theists would disagree with that sentiment either. Religion isn't the only place this happens, but religion does make it really, really easy.

I guess I don't see why religion makes it easy. Children will be impressionable regardless. There are plenty of children who grew up to be hateful racists, and I fail to see how religion/spirituality was much of a factor for most of them.

 

[Moral Orel]

But I also disagree, I believe that most people who are rotten, Theist or not, are rotten because they're rotten.
Not because of things they are taught, as the saying goes, you don't have to teach a man to hate.

You think most rotten people are born rotten? I'm looking at your signature, and it sure feels like you would side with me on the nature vs. nurture debate...

I like that sig, by the way. I saw that in a movie a long time ago.

 

[Moral Orel]

How common is a religious community anywhere near as rotten as the Westboro baptist church? I don't see why there isn't equally rare secular community equivalents. Some people are drawn to hate, and sadly such communities will steer impressionable children into that direction. Although I'd think if they had any decency they'd grow out of it when they're adults. I know the Westboro Baptist Church has had a problem with such kids eventually shrugging the faith off and going their own way.

I picked two extreme ends of the spectrum to make my point. But you don't have to be a church that goes out and pickets to be a church that teaches you to hate gay folk. I agree there are plenty of secular groups that do the same thing. I'm not singling out religion except for the fact that is the topic of the thread.

Why wouldn't there be? You don't think rotten people who happen to have a religious/spiritual side find rotten communities that speak for them?

I don't think people are born rotten, do you? At least not in general. Brain chemistry and all that, some folk just have a different temperament than most folk. Seems to me that somebody had to influence a person to encourage rottenness. I think if someone was rotten, they were already part of a rotten community, and they may move around between them, but if they started out in a fresh community, they'd stay fresh.

I guess I don't see why religion makes it easy. Children will be impressionable regardless. There are plenty of children who grew up to be hateful racists, and I fail to see how religion/spirituality was much of a factor for most of them.

Well you've got the influence of your social circle/community. Trying to be normal in your group, viewing your group as normal because that's all you know. That's one way to influence attitudes, and a lot of hate of all kinds results from this, sure. Then you've got authority figures like your parents, for example. They hold a big sway on your attitudes too, but everybody has those. Then you have authority figures like a pastor who tells you what the Bible means and what you need to think and feel to get to Heaven/stay out of Hell. Not everyone wants to think critically. Kathleen Madigan said once that of course she expects her priest to read the Bible for her. Guy has no wife, no kids... Least he can do is show up and write a one hour book report once a week.

When you go to a church, you have all of those extremely powerful influences acting on your attitudes and beliefs. Not many other social situations involve all three. But a church with a pastor that preaches hate, has a congregation that feels hate, that raises children that hate. That's a lot harder to overcome than just having hateful parents as an influence and/or a group of friends that hate.

 

[Wolfe]

You think most rotten people are born rotten? I'm looking at your signature, and it sure feels like you would side with me on the nature vs. nurture debate...

I like that sig, by the way. I saw that in a movie a long time ago.

I believe people are born with a predisposition towards positivity or negativity.
I have extremely bad temper problems, prone to violent outburst, and generally just being an ass.
Although my nurturing did nothing to help me, I was always trouble even when I was in diapers.
Or I used to be, I've gotten much better. Now I'm just a snarky, sarcastic douchebag.

So I do believe people who are rotten, are often times born rotten.
But I also believe that the world can make people jaded, but even in those cases, I don't find that they lose their positive humanity.

No, I do not believe people who are born rotten, must be rotten.
The key is recognizing that it isn't okay, and working to make a change in yourself.
It's a shame that a lot of people don't seem to do this.

when it comes down to morality, religion offers little to the secular audience, obviously if you adhere to Christian beliefs, then you will try to align yourself with the morals (though not everyone does...).
As where if you're an Atheist, you can respect the morals of Christianity, such as Abortion being wrong, or Fornication, or Adultery being wrong, and not share the morals yourself.
Likewise, if you're an Atheist, you can also share the morals of Christianity.
So in that way, religion doesn't do much to shape our morality, in a modern landscape anyway.
Obviously it's had moral impact in history.

Typically I have found that people who stay Atheist, are less inclined to make an effort to change, whether it be that they don't see themselves as bad, or that they just don't want to.
But even a lot of bad egg Christians, such as myself, make an effort.
Not saying that the disbelief in God makes you automatically a prick, just saying that I think (mainly young people) people who are Atheist, are prone to act in a disgusting manor.
I don't think it's the belief that make it so, I think it's just that more nasty people are drawn too the belief. As it allows them to act however they want, without conviction.

That being said, I have met many a kind Atheist, I have met more unkind, but I like to focus on the positive eh?
I can't really speak on behalf of Christians, because I haven't actually met many.
I have gotten to know more Atheist than Christians, and I have met more Atheist strangers, than Christian strangers.
I've spoken to a good number of Atheist, much much more than Christian.
So I wanna make it clear that it could be ignorance, and the nastiness could be evenly spread out between the two.
I've just found that the Christians that I have met, have generally been nice, and loving, right off the bat.
And I have to look for the bad ones. The opposite being the case with Atheist, I never have to look long to find one that aint too kind, and I do have to make an effort to find the ones that are actually, grounded people.
Most of the Atheist I have met here are fairly nice, you get an odd one out every now and then of course.

I like my sig really well too, always been a favorite of mine.

It's rambly, and all over the stinkin place, and I probably didn't make much sense at parts, but cut me a break, I haven't slept in 3 years.
If you need elaboration, please don't hesitate.

 

[MehGuy]

I picked two extreme ends of the spectrum to make my point. But you don't have to be a church that goes out and pickets to be a church that teaches you to hate gay folk. I agree there are plenty of secular groups that do the same thing. I'm not singling out religion except for the fact that is the topic of the thread.

I understand, I don't discount nurture entirely. Although I think nature mostly prevails.

I don't think people are born rotten, do you?

I certainly do. Sociopaths, sadists.. I think a large part of that has to do with brain chemistry. Some people are predisposed to engaging in hateful/rotten behavior.

At least not in general. Brain chemistry and all that, some folk just have a different temperament than most folk. Seems to me that somebody had to influence a person to encourage rottenness.

I think rotten people can become even more rotten under a bad environment. Although I do not think anyone needs to encourage them to be rotten in the first place.

I think if someone was rotten, they were already part of a rotten community, and they may move around between them, but if they started out in a fresh community, they'd stay fresh.

It's just not my experience with people. People have their own ambitions and desires. They're not that influenced by nurture.

Not everyone wants to think critically.

When it comes to being themselves I think they do.

When you go to a church, you have all of those extremely powerful influences acting on your attitudes and beliefs. Not many other social situations involve all three. But a church with a pastor that preaches hate, has a congregation that feels hate, that raises children that hate. That's a lot harder to overcome than just having hateful parents as an influence and/or a group of friends that hate.

But secular people can form their own hateful communities/meeting groups as well. Even racists and the like have their own rallies and events that the whole family participates in. Although at the end of the day I think parents/friends/peers are enough.

 

[Paradoxum]

In specific instances. Not in general.

Do not a number of specific instances make an 'in general'?

I'd say this is true of religion.

 

[Paradoxum]

It's good that you acknowledge that at least theists and non-theists can both comprise of toxic people at times. I'm still wondering how taking theism out of the equation will make things ultimately better.

Theism tends to promote false beliefs, some of which are harmful. Less false harmful beliefs is good.

Some atheists have harmful beliefs, but they don't come from atheism. I oppose those too.

Less ideologies which add harmful beliefs is good.

Sorry if I'm misreading you, but why lump religion altogether?

I agree not all religion is the same. But most religious people aren't liberal deists whose religion wont change their ethics negatively (in my opinion).

I'll argue against toxic things in religious circles, but it's not even close enough to warrant calling myself an ant-theist or thinking the world is going to be better once religion is done away with.

I think religion adds bad morals. The good morals can be followed without religion. So the religion does harm. in my opinion. So why not be against it?

And discrimination exists within the secular world as well.

Heck I know of atheists who still discriminate against that type of "love". Lol.

I agree, and I oppose those ideologies. I'm anti-traditionalism and stupid masculinity, as well as religion.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It has been suggested that atheist is synonymous with antitheist.

I'd like to know how many antitheists are here.

I definitely am...though I really can't express it much here without breaking forum rules.

 

[Larniavc]

I definitely am...though I really can't express it much here without breaking forum rules.

I know what you mean.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I know what you mean.

After reading the rest of the posts, I'd say I agree with the majority of what Paradox said....except she said it more tactfully than I probably would've lol.

If I were to use metaphorical imagery...I'd picture mankind as a man walking down a road...a symbol of his advancement throughout the ages....and religion would be one of those old timey ball and chains they used to shackle to the legs of prisoners.

That said, I suppose there's some very benign forms of belief which really are of no concern at all. The idea of god as a sort of "hands-off" creator who simply started the universe and never interferes at all or affects anyone's lives....or communicates with his creations...that idea probably does no real harm. Then again, how many hold that belief? Not many I'd wager.