Are you a Continuationist or a Cessationist?

[Tomb523]

I am provisionally a cessationist regarding the sign gifts (healing, tongues, prophesy, etc). By provisionally, I don't discount God could manifest them in someone for a specific purpose and then remove it, but I don't believe they are perpetual in anyone. For example, someone may be given tongues in order to interpret the gospel for a previously unknown tribe.

We are all given the gift of the Holy Spirit and with that gift, we are given some strengths designed to fit into the body of Christ (the Church) to make it strong. These strengths are things like wisdom, understanding, exhortation, teaching, leading, etc. The body of Christ must have these things in order to be healthy and these gifts be used to edify (build up) the other parts. As eyes are to see and ears to hear, we cannot expect ears to see nor eyes to hear, but a healthy body must have both of these in order to function at it's peak ability. These gifts will remain until the return of Jesus.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am provisionally a cessationist regarding the sign gifts (healing, tongues, prophesy, etc). By provisionally, I don't discount God could manifest them in someone for a specific purpose and then remove it, but I don't believe they are perpetual in anyone. For example, someone may be given tongues in order to interpret the gospel for a previously unknown tribe.

We are all given the gift of the Holy Spirit and with that gift, we are given some strengths designed to fit into the body of Christ (the Church) to make it strong. These strengths are things like wisdom, understanding, exhortation, teaching, leading, etc. The body of Christ must have these things in order to be healthy and these gifts be used to edify (build up) the other parts. As eyes are to see and ears to hear, we cannot expect ears to see nor eyes to hear, but a healthy body must have both of these in order to function at it's peak ability. These gifts will remain until the return of Jesus.

The things you describe as spiritual gifts would happen even if there were no Holy Spirit active in the church. They could be mere religious activities. The false cults also do all those things and there is no Holy Spirit among them. So, how can you reliably prove that the wisdom, understanding, exhortation, teaching, leading are nothing more than man doing it? I was a member of an amateur radio club once and we had all these things and this was not a religious organisation at all!

 

[Tomb523]

The things you describe as spiritual gifts would happen even if there were no Holy Spirit active in the church. They could be mere religious activities. The false cults also do all those things and there is no Holy Spirit among them. So, how can you reliably prove that the wisdom, understanding, exhortation, teaching, leading are nothing more than man doing it? I was a member of an amateur radio club once and we had all these things and this was not a religious organisation at all!

A person may be a good teacher, but can they teach God's word? They may have secular wisdom, but do they have divine wisdom? Secondly, is it a natural gift or does the gift go contrary to what this person may normally exhibit? In other words, did this gift manifest after salvation or before and does it concern spiritual things vs secular.

I admit, discerning the difference is subtle and often difficult. It can be faked as well, but then this is where the full body of Christ comes into play. While one may pretend to be a teacher and teaching a false word, those with discernment/wisdom will recognize it for what it is. Can this lead to some being misled? Yes, absolutely! But then we are all warned about these deceptions.

The gifts on which I speak are, admittedly, mundane. They don't contain the big "wow" factor of the sign gifts, but then I believe a subtle hand is the hallmark of God.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

A person may be a good teacher, but can they teach God's word? They may have secular wisdom, but do they have divine wisdom? Secondly, is it a natural gift or does the gift go contrary to what this person may normally exhibit? In other words, did this gift manifest after salvation or before and does it concern spiritual things vs secular.

I admit, discerning the difference is subtle and often difficult. It can be faked as well, but then this is where the full body of Christ comes into play. While one may pretend to be a teacher and teaching a false word, those with discernment/wisdom will recognize it for what it is. Can this lead to some being misled? Yes, absolutely! But then we are all warned about these deceptions.

The gifts on which I speak are, admittedly, mundane. They don't contain the big "wow" factor of the sign gifts, but then I believe a subtle hand is the hallmark of God.

The reality is that most churches, with their three hymns and sermon, would carry on without any changes if the Holy Spirit was withdrawn and prayer would no longer have any power or hope of answer. The fact is, that they would not prove that they had any more than just naturalist religion.

 

[Tomb523]

The reality is that most churches, with their three hymns and sermon, would carry on without any changes if the Holy Spirit was withdrawn and prayer would no longer have any power or hope of answer. The fact is, that they would not prove that they had any more than just naturalist religion.

I can't argue that the condition you describe most probably exists, although I couldn't support your supposition of the share value (i.e.: most). I can say that I did leave a church that believed in the sign gifts. The services often took on a life of their own which was attributed to the movement of the Holy Spirit (and I do doubt it was). It was actually a conglomerate of various ministries one of which was a man claiming to BE an apostle with the power of healing. I attended his services and watched him "heal" many of the congregation. They fell on the floor, writing around and others were sure to cover them in stadium blankets they had at the ready. Several months later, I would approach the "healed" and innocently inquired as to how their affliction was doing and not ONE said they were completely healed. Some did profess partial improvement, but none were healed. They all spoke in tongues, yet not once did I hear a translation and there were usually more than 3 at a time speaking.

Contrast this with the church I now attend. It's even keeled and structured, but the Holy Spirit is there with us. I believe the pastor to also be spirit filled. We don't have people dancing in the aisles, speaking in tongues or any other charismatic/Pentecostal behaviors. The pastor is a teacher and his sermons are instructional concerning the word of God. But not only am I enjoying it, I can sense the Holy Spirit just as I did at the previous church.

To take your analogy just a bit further, if the rapture occurred on a Sunday morning, I dare say all churches will still have members sitting in the pews.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I can't argue that the condition you describe most probably exists, although I couldn't support your supposition of the share value (i.e.: most). I can say that I did leave a church that believed in the sign gifts. The services often took on a life of their own which was attributed to the movement of the Holy Spirit (and I do doubt it was). It was actually a conglomerate of various ministries one of which was a man claiming to BE an apostle with the power of healing. I attended his services and watched him "heal" many of the congregation. They fell on the floor, writing around and others were sure to cover them in stadium blankets they had at the ready. Several months later, I would approach the "healed" and innocently inquired as to how their affliction was doing and not ONE said they were completely healed. Some did profess partial improvement, but none were healed. They all spoke in tongues, yet not once did I hear a translation and there were usually more than 3 at a time speaking.

Contrast this with the church I now attend. It's even keeled and structured, but the Holy Spirit is there with us. I believe the pastor to also be spirit filled. We don't have people dancing in the aisles, speaking in tongues or any other charismatic/Pentecostal behaviors. The pastor is a teacher and his sermons are instructional concerning the word of God. But not only am I enjoying it, I can sense the Holy Spirit just as I did at the previous church.

To take your analogy just a bit further, if the rapture occurred on a Sunday morning, I dare say all churches will still have members sitting in the pews.

When you compare the church you left, you will see that there is no comparison. The Early Church had none of the things going on that you described. In fact, if Paul had witnessed them, he would say much the same things as he said to the Corinthians. He wouldn't have described those services as being run decently and in order.

Having had a Pentecostal background and spent years accepting those antics as from the Holy Spirit, it has taken around 30 years to come to the point where I can see clearly that the public tongues, falling down, preachers calling themselves apostles, writhing around the floor, are not of the Holy Spirit at all, because I have clearly seen that how the Holy Spirit moved in the Early Church in a vastly different way. The only description of a group of believers being filled with the Spirit in a corporate meeting was that when they were filled with the Spirit, they received boldness to preach the gospel, and when they went out and preached the gospel, signs and wonders happened among the unbelievers. There is no other clear description of what was happening in fellowship meetings, other than the one where Paul taught and a guy fell and was raised back to life, and Paul's comments to the Corinthians including his instructions of the right way to pray in tongues and to prophesy. If you carefully read the book of Acts, the contrasts between the out of control Pentecostal meetings, and those of the Early Church become very clear, and I don't know about you, but I believe the New Testament record.

Now, the Gospel writers spoke about "what we saw and heard". This meant that what convinced them that Jesus was the Son of God, and that the Holy Spirit was moving in the Church was they "saw and heard" the evidence of His presence with them. It was not them pretending that the Holy Spirit was moving, when there was nothing to see or hear. If church services have nothing more than three hymns and a sermon, with no other evidence seen and heard that He is there among us, then we cannot say that the Holy Spirit is actually moving. If we say He is, then that is a pretence and a lie. It is the Kierkegaardian blind leap of faith that says "I believe it, therefore it must be true." When the disciples of John asked if Jesus was the Messiah, He answered by describing the miracles that were happening as part of His ministry. That was His evidence to John's disciples. I believe that the same evidence is required if we are to be truthful in saying that the Holy Spirit is moving among us. If people in the community around the church are not healed of their sicknesss, diseases and disabilities, and are not released from demon influence, then we actually deceive ourselves and lie if we say the Holy Spirit is moving with us. Therefore we need to really seek God for a true involvement with the Holy Spirit in what we do, and should not be satisfied until we see and hear what He can do to the unbelievers around our church.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

1Co 12:28-30 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

I come from a Pentecostal background, I have been along side people who have seen the dead raised, I know some who have seen crippled people healed, and the blind given sight, and I personally have seen a few minor healings through my own prayer. If you were to investigate my life, you would not see every person I prayed for healed, but some are. Why I only seem to have a gift (at this time) of healings, not working of miracles (which requires greater responsibility and power).

God still works in power but there are very few people who are worth to carry the power that God has available, why? Pride and sin keep people back from God's purposes. Even if they do have a gift not every person they pray for will always be healed in my opinion, for that must be left in God's hands, it is His gift not ours.

 

[Kiterius]

Open but cautious.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

1Co 12:28-30 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

I come from a Pentecostal background, I have been along side people who have seen the dead raised, I know some who have seen crippled people healed, and the blind given sight, and I personally have seen a few minor healings through my own prayer. If you were to investigate my life, you would not see every person I prayed for healed, but some are. Why I only seem to have a gift (at this time) of healings, not working of miracles (which requires greater responsibility and power).

God still works in power but there are very few people who are worth to carry the power that God has available, why? Pride and sin keep people back from God's purposes. Even if they do have a gift not every person they pray for will always be healed in my opinion, for that must be left in God's hands, it is His gift not ours.

When Paul talks about the gifts, he does not say that they are given to individuals. He says that they are given to the Church. Anyone who is filled with the Holy Spirit can move in any of the gifts as the Spirit directs. The gifts belong to the Church and we have the ability to use them, but we don't own them. So a person may be used in healing one day and not the next, and they are not to be used to benefit the person using them, but for the benefit of the Church and the community around it. Anyone who uses a particular gift to enhance their own reputation or try to make them more spiritual than others is misusing the gift and actually bring the Holy Spirit into disrepute. The Holy Spirit can withdraw His power from a whole church even if one person misuses the gifts He has brought to the Church.

Therefore, if a person is acting as a "lone ranger" he or she should not be surprised if the gift doesn't happen. The gifts are designed to work within the Church community. This is the reason why some of the big-name "lone ranger" ministries have to falsely represent themselves, because the reality about them is that "the emperor has no clothes."

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

That might be taking it too far, but I don't see any purpose in speaking in tongues if no one understands what you are saying. People will say they are talking to the Lord, and how can you say they are not, but on Pentecost, speaking in tongues was to spread the Gospel to people who spoke in other languages. Is that what "speaking in tongues" means today?

First Corinthians 14 answers so much:

1Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 2For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 5Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

6Now, brothers,a if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? 7If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? 8And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. 10There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, 11but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. 12So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

13Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. 16Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsiderb say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. 18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.


Paul is talking about the gift of tongues + interpretation to the church, which is the same as prophesying. Speaking in tongues alone is edification for your own spirit, which is fine (on your own), but not what God wants in a church setting.

He says he prays in the Spirit all the time, but IN CHURCH it is important to be understood, and not each man just praying in tongues on his own with no understanding taking place.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Because the Bible is the Word of God (not merely a series of books that contain it as liberal theologians make out), 1 Corinthians 14 is just as authoritative as all the other parts of it. It is therefore interesting that folks believe that the 10 Commandments are there to be obeyed, but 1 Corinthians 14 is optional. If both parts of the Bible are the Word of God to us, why hold to the one and reject the other?

I believe that the rejection by many churches of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit, including speaking in tongues, is the result of the influence of liberal theology which denies the inerrancy of the Bible. We need to remember that those who hold to liberal theology which says that we can pick and choose which parts of the Bible to obey or not to obey, are not genuine born again believers and are still dead in their sins, no matter how "holy" and religious they seem to be, and use the correct "gospel" words. But that's all they have - just the words and no substance behind them.

I am not saying that those who do not speak in tongues are liberal and therefore not saved. There are many reasons why good, godly people don't speak in tongues - and Paul did ask, "Do all speak in tongues?"

But there is a difference between a person not speaking in tongues because they have not received the revelation of it from the Spirit, and those who reject it and say it is false. Those who maintain that tongues is false are saying that 1 Corinthians is not the Word of God and therefore does not apply to them. I have doubts as to whether those people are actually saved.

 

[Hishandmaiden]

I believe the gifts of the holy spirit still operates in the world today.
I believe they operate in the same magnitude and same way as the past.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Thanks for sharing. I ran in Pentecostal circles for years and never saw spontaneous tongues. But only spontaneous outbursts after the person learned by coaching how to speak the first time. I also never saw any documented evidence of the miracles many claimed. I share some of my experience in the Testimonies thread on this board called "Escape from a Death Cult" if you care to read.

I think some penecostal churches are unGodly and unbiblical but I don't believe the idea is incorrect.. I just believe far more caution needs to be taken around Pentecostal churches.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Because the Bible is the Word of God (not merely a series of books that contain it as liberal theologians make out), 1 Corinthians 14 is just as authoritative as all the other parts of it. It is therefore interesting that folks believe that the 10 Commandments are there to be obeyed, but 1 Corinthians 14 is optional. If both parts of the Bible are the Word of God to us, why hold to the one and reject the other?

I believe that the rejection by many churches of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit, including speaking in tongues, is the result of the influence of liberal theology which denies the inerrancy of the Bible. We need to remember that those who hold to liberal theology which says that we can pick and choose which parts of the Bible to obey or not to obey, are not genuine born again believers and are still dead in their sins, no matter how "holy" and religious they seem to be, and use the correct "gospel" words. But that's all they have - just the words and no substance behind them.

I am not saying that those who do not speak in tongues are liberal and therefore not saved. There are many reasons why good, godly people don't speak in tongues - and Paul did ask, "Do all speak in tongues?"

But there is a difference between a person not speaking in tongues because they have not received the revelation of it from the Spirit, and those who reject it and say it is false. Those who maintain that tongues is false are saying that 1 Corinthians is not the Word of God and therefore does not apply to them. I have doubts as to whether those people are actually saved.

I am not sure how many people deny speaking in tongues outright or how many are saying that many who claim to be speaking in tongues are claiming so falsely.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am not sure how many people deny speaking in tongues outright or how many are saying that many who claim to be speaking in tongues are claiming so falsely.

There are plenty of posts on CF that state that tongues is not for today and that people who speak in tongues are speaking just gibberish. That is a denial of the truth of 1 Corinthians 14.

 

[Hazelelponi]

There are plenty of posts on CF that state that tongues is not for today and that people who speak in tongues are speaking just gibberish. That is a denial of the truth of 1 Corinthians 14.

Okay..

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Okay..

People either believe 1 Corinthians 14 or they don't. God is not going to force anyone to believe anything. He has given us the written word and the choice to believe it or not. Those who decide to believe and do the Bible, achieve certain things in their lives. Those who decide not to believe and do the Bible may not achieve the same things that those who do believe and do. So, if a person decided to believe 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 and 1 Corinthians 14, they will achieve things in their lives and churches that those who do not believe those passages will not. In the secular world, the call it cause and effect. In the Christian life, what we believe and do has related consequences.

So, God is not going to twist your arm up your back and make you believe in tongues, or any of the other gifts of the Spirit. He will allow you to worship and serve Him how you choose. But the Scripture says that it is appointed to men once to die and after that the Judgment, and that we must all give account of our lives to God. So although God will not force anyone to believe His Word, but there will come a day when we will have to give account to Him concerning the choices we have made.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think some penecostal churches are unGodly and unbiblical but I don't believe the idea is incorrect.. I just believe far more caution needs to be taken around Pentecostal churches.

There seems to be a lot of criticism of Pentecostal churches by folk from Evangelical churches, but nothing much is said about the increasing influence of liberal theology that has taken over the majority of Evangelical churches where belief in the inerrant Word of God, a real infinite-personal God, Jesus coming and being on earth at a particular time of history, that He rose from the dead, and that the Holy Spirit is a real person who has come to the Church to represent Jesus, is not supported. Most if not all Evangelical Seminaries are teaching Bishop Spong's liberal theology and this is increasing so that by the next generation of new church pastors and ministers, liberal, Christless theology will be the norm in Evangelical churches. So, when Evangelicals criticise the Pentecostal churches, they need to look to their own churches first to deal with the demonic liberal theology that is growing like a cancer.

 

[Spirit of Pentecost]

I voted continuationist. However, I don't like identifying as either. The Bible gives no indication that any of the spiritual gifts have ceased, especially considering we are to be the New Testament church.

And discussing speaking in tongues. Many people misunderstand that there are two differing tongues.

First, there are the tongues that one receives as the initial evidence of Spirit baptism (Acts 2:4; Acts 10:46; Acts 19:6). In these scriptures there is no explanation that these tongues needed any interpretation. Why? Because they do not need any. Their a spiritual communication between the Spirit-filled believer and God. Once a Christian is baptized in the Spirit, they can continuously pray through to tongues, and at different times, God will give one new tongues. (Personal Experience)

Second, their are the gift of tongues that Paul writes about throughout Corinthians. The twelfth chapter of Corinthians discusses the spiritual gifts, and here it is clear that not every Spirit-filled believer holds the ability to have the gift of tongues and the gift of interpreting said tongues. The gift of tongues is provided for the edification of the body (1 Corinthians 14:27), and if there be no interpreter, the message should not be given (1 Corinthians 14:28).

The Book of First Corinthians also tells us of the tongues the Christians experienced at Pentecost. It is written that when one speaks in other tongue that there is no interpretation needed because the utterances are mysteries in the Spirit understood only by God (1 Corinthians 14:2).

Speaking in tongues is the touchiest of subjects among Christian bodies, and many quite simply do not have an understanding of their diversity or their purpose.

 

[Dave L]

I voted continuationist. However, I don't like identifying as either. The Bible gives no indication that any of the spiritual gifts have ceased, especially considering we are to be the New Testament church.

And discussing speaking in tongues. Many people misunderstand that there are two differing tongues.

First, there are the tongues that one receives as the initial evidence of Spirit baptism (Acts 2:4; Acts 10:46; Acts 19:6). In these scriptures there is no explanation that these tongues needed any interpretation. Why? Because they do not need any. Their a spiritual communication between the Spirit-filled believer and God. Once a Christian is baptized in the Spirit, they can continuously pray through to tongues, and at different times, God will give one new tongues. (Personal Experience)

Second, their are the gift of tongues that Paul writes about throughout Corinthians. The twelfth chapter of Corinthians discusses the spiritual gifts, and here it is clear that not every Spirit-filled believer holds the ability to have the gift of tongues and the gift of interpreting said tongues. The gift of tongues is provided for the edification of the body (1 Corinthians 14:27), and if there be no interpreter, the message should not be given (1 Corinthians 14:28).

The Book of First Corinthians also tells us of the tongues the Christians experienced at Pentecost. It is written that when one speaks in other tongue that there is no interpretation needed because the utterances are mysteries in the Spirit understood only by God (1 Corinthians 14:2).

Speaking in tongues is the touchiest of subjects among Christian bodies, and many quite simply do not have an understanding of their diversity or their purpose.

The bible shows the gifts ceased in several ways. One is that apart from the two outpourings, the gifts came ONLY through the Apostles' hands. And when God took them home he retracted the gifts he used to authenticate their ministry.