Are you a Continuationist or a Cessationist?

[Dave L]

Nowhere in the bible does it claim that the spiritual gifts cease with the apostles.

Nowhere in scripture does it show the charismatic gifts being distributed beyond the two outpourings and the Apostles' hands. Zero

 

[FenderTL5]

Continuationism: Charismatic, Pentecostal, etc.
Cessationism: Most Baptists, Presbyterians, etc.

As it applies to the modern, charismatic understanding of the sign gifts and tongues specifically: neither.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

We have scripture that does a better job than any of the Charismatic gifts did.

How many people do you think are won to Christ these days just by quoting Scripture at them? And how many people have been saved because they saw someone healed by the power of God? And why are their churches that are supposed to be strong in the Word declining and dying, while other churches which are also strong in the Word and also have healing and deliverance in their churches growing at a much faster rate and retaining those who have received Christ?

 

[Dave L]

How many people do you think are won to Christ these days just by quoting Scripture at them? And how many people have been saved because they saw someone healed by the power of God? And why are their churches that are supposed to be strong in the Word declining and dying, while other churches which are also strong in the Word and also have healing and deliverance in their churches growing at a much faster rate and retaining those who have received Christ?

“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” (John 6:37)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” (John 6:37)

The question still remains - unanswered.

 

[Dave L]

The question still remains - unanswered.

You said:
"How many people do you think are won to Christ these days just by quoting Scripture at them? And how many people have been saved because they saw someone healed by the power of God? And why are their churches that are supposed to be strong in the Word declining and dying, while other churches which are also strong in the Word and also have healing and deliverance in their churches growing at a much faster rate and retaining those who have received Christ?"

First, quoting Scripture imparts spiritual life to the hearer. “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” (John 6:63)
Tongues and prophecy were flawed interpretations that Peter said scripture resolved. Because it is not of private interpretation 2 Peter 1:20.

God still heals through the prayer of faith. And demons flee in hearing Jesus' name. But many illnesses are sin induced and repentance also brings healing.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You said:
"How many people do you think are won to Christ these days just by quoting Scripture at them? And how many people have been saved because they saw someone healed by the power of God? And why are their churches that are supposed to be strong in the Word declining and dying, while other churches which are also strong in the Word and also have healing and deliverance in their churches growing at a much faster rate and retaining those who have received Christ?"

First, quoting Scripture imparts spiritual life to the hearer. “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” (John 6:63)
Tongues and prophecy were flawed interpretations that Peter said scripture resolved. Because it is not of private interpretation 2 Peter 1:20.

God still heals through the prayer of faith. And demons flee in hearing Jesus' name. But many illnesses are sin induced and repentance also brings healing.

So, how do you deal with an atheist who doesn't believe the Bible and who believes that occult supernatural is more real than Christian words?

 

[Dave L]

So, how do you deal with an atheist who doesn't believe the Bible and who believes that occult supernatural is more real than Christian words?

If he is God's elect, scripture will speak life into his heart.

“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” (1 Peter 1:23)

 

[Albion]

Nowhere in the bible does it claim that the spiritual gifts cease with the apostles.

But they did cease. No Pentecostal Christian I have talked with ever wants to confront that fact of life.

 

[GTW27]

But they did cease. No Pentecostal Christian I have talked with ever wants to confront that fact of life.

Wow, another facilitator of unbelief.

 

[Albion]

Its not a theological question, GTW. They ceased.

If you want to dispute that, turn to your church history. It does no good to say that the Bible says tongues will not cease as though they never stopped from the time of the Apostles to the present. There has to be another meaning to that verse.

 

[Spirit of Pentecost]

The reason the majority of the churches are not experiencing a great outpouring of the Spirit is quite simply because they do not want it. They're rejecting it. They may not exactly know what they are rejecting, but that's precisely what they're doing. A lot of the reasoning behind all of it is the pastors and other leaders standing in pulpits and saying that one is saved by a simple dedication to the Lord. There's no repentance, no baptism, no Spirit infilling or anything. They don't encourage them to seek anything further, so therefore they don't.

Christians, and that term is used loosely in some instances, have rejected the Holy Ghost from the beginning. They do not want it, and in most people's minds, they have been convinced that any kind of spiritual presence or outpouring is demonic and ungodly. And only the counterfeit --- the Devil himself --- would convince someone to believe that.

The moving of the Spirit and believe experiencing Spirit baptism evidenced by tongues has always been around. Of course, all of it probably is not documented because it wasn't the orthodox of the times. People thought they were fanatical, and I'm sure they weren't allowed into any kind of formal or traditional religious gathering. And if the Spirit isn't welcome in a gathering, He's certainly not going to force Himself in. He's a gentleman.

In Pentecostal and other full gospel churches, the Spirit has moved abundantly, but that doesn't mean it's only meant for those churches and the people that go there. It's a Bible thing. Not a denomination thing.

And even in Pentecostal circles, you will come across things that aren't right. Flesh has been known to get in the way.

My point is people have to want and strive for more from the Lord in order to get it. He isn't going to force anything on anyone and make them to believe anything that they aren't going to see. We need to stop reading the Word to prove man-made creeds, doctrines, or denominations, but let it speak for itself. When you go into the Word with the intention on proving something the world or men have "created", then you're going at it with the wrong attitude and intent.

Let the Spirit guide and direct you. That's what the Lord gives it to us for. Pray for direction for the Bible to speak for itself, not for you to make it speak.

God bless.

 

[anx66]

It's hard to explain... essentially we believe Pentecostal tongues, manifestations, etc. are false.

Some Baptists in the UK are charismatic and therefore are continuationist, they seem to straddle the line of your dichotomy. I'm a continuationist, but I'm not always sure whether what people call tongues is actually the same thing as the gift of tongues mentioned in the Bible. Sometimes I think in people's zeal to receive one of the spiritual gifts, they actually subconsciously create what they believe is tongues. From what I have seen in the Bible, the gift of tongues is speaking a foreign language, where as lots of people seem to be speaking, and I apologize before hand to anyone who may get offended, gibberish. How would you tell if the gift of tongues is what a particular person is uttering? I know for certain that some people who claim to be christian, speak in "tongues". My son, who is not a Christian can emulate a person speaking in tongues without a problem.

 

[anx66]

The reason the majority of the churches are not experiencing a great outpouring of the Spirit is quite simply because they do not want it. They're rejecting it.

How do you know people are rejecting a great outpouring of the Spirit? Perhaps what they have witnessed in some churches, has made them a little hesitant as they doubt the reality of such a move in other churches.

 

[GTW27]

Its not a theological question, GTW. They ceased.

If you want to dispute that, turn to your church history. It does no good to say that the Bible says tongues will not cease as though they never stopped from the time of the Apostles to the present. There has to be another meaning to that verse.

Not so. I am a man of no account and yet The Lord sustains me. I walk in The Spirit as The Lord wills. And I can tell you truly, that all the spiritual gifts are for today, as they were back then. Same Power and same Authority as back then. These gifts are Him(The Holy Spirit) in us, just as promised then and now. Not all that call themselves Christian are truly born from above. The reason that the gift of tongues for today are under attack is that praying in The Spirit(In Tongues) is very effective in Spiritual warfare. The demons hate it. I see many things on these boards but one thing I can tell you for sure, The Lord is not happy with this one. "and when The Perfect comes the imperfect will pass away" And He is coming, and He is bringing His rewards with Him.

 

[Albion]

Not so. I am a man of no account and yet The Lord sustains me. I walk in The Spirit as The Lord wills. And I can tell you truly, that all the spiritual gifts are for today, as they were back then. Same Power and same Authority as back then. These gifts are Him(The Holy Spirit) in us, just as promised then and now. Not all that call themselves Christian are truly born from above. The reason that the gift of tongues for today are under attack is that praying in The Spirit(In Tongues) is very effective in Spiritual warfare. The demons hate it. I see many things on these boards but one thing I can tell you for sure, The Lord is not happy with this one. "and when The Perfect comes the imperfect will pass away" And He is coming, and He is bringing His rewards with Him.

The issue was not whether you think they are important for today. It was that they ceased in the past. The gifts, genuine or otherwise, that you are referring to represent a reintroduction of the use of them in recent times.

But if that is so, then the claim that they must be genuine since the Bible says that tongues shall not cease...doesn't apply to them. Many Pentecostal Christians like to cite that verse in an attempt to prove that the tongues speaking of our times is genuine, as you probably know.

 

[Spirit of Pentecost]

How do you know people are rejecting a great outpouring of the Spirit? Perhaps what they have witnessed in some churches, has made them a little hesitant as they doubt the reality of such a move in other churches.

When they don't want to move forward and are quite simply satisfied with what they have, that's rejecting it; even if they don't know they're doing it.

 

[anx66]

When they don't want to move forward and are quite simply satisfied with what they have, that's rejecting it; even if they don't know they're doing it.

Somebody can't reject something that they don't know about. rejection by definition involves at least the knowledge of the thing you are rejecting.

 

[Spirit of Pentecost]

Somebody can't reject something that they don't know about. rejection by definition involves at least the knowledge of the thing you are rejecting.

Agreed. And then that falls unto the pastors and leaders of these churches that are supposed to the be studying the Word and pushing their congregations to what more of what the Lord has to offer.

And I have met people that have experienced genuine moves of the Spirit and gotten other revelations, but quite simply don't want it and walk away. What's that? Rejecting.

 

[Francis Drake]

Meanwhile, those who move in the gifts today, simply continue with their Spirit filled lives.
Its not about church, its about daily life. Living in words of knowledge, prophesies, dreams and visions etc. is what guides my day, my week, my years.
Rejecting the gifts is like someone choosing to become deaf and blind.

The cessationist argument is like a backwoods person denying the existence of the telephone or electricity.