Are world events orchestrated?

[joshua 1 9]

The words "before" and "after" relate to this space-time continuum, and are words that God more or less "had" to use in order to communicate meaningfully with us.

"Nahmanides taught that although the days are 24 hours each, they contain "kol yemot ha-olam" - all the ages and all the secrets of the world." Johnathon Cahn just wrote the best selling book Paradigm where he explains how there are layers of meaning to the Bible. The Bibles calls this shadows and types.

 

[RDKirk]

As God, He could have over-ridden Adam's free-will at any time. It seems that maintaining Man's ability to choose is more important to God than preventing his Fall. If Man would have succeeded in staying away from the KOGE tree, we would have enjoyed the best of both worlds.

God could have not created Lucifer. God could have not created the tree. God could have not uttered the commandment.

And none of that would have over-ridden Adam's free will.

But God set up a situation that made the fall possible--which nothing but His own will could compel Him to do--and His foreknowledge meant that he knew the fall was inevitable.

Now, many people will want to rush to "defend God's honor," but that's only because they are judging God's actions by their own morality.

God's actions are moral because they are His actions, regardless of our puny, limited opinion of what God ought to do to remain moral in the minds of men.

"Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

The fact is, God was not controlled by Abraham's sense of right and wrong. Abraham thought it was a good idea to let people have his wife, thinking she was merely his sister.

If God had done such a thing, it would have been righteous because God did it.

 

[Sabertooth]

God could have not uttered the commandment.

Minor quibble: I don't think that death was a product of the commandment as much as it was the product of the tree. The commandment was a heads-up.

And I do think that God has some constraints, though we don't fully understand them, like:

• He cannot lie (though He really doesn't have to),
• He cannot break His Word/promises,
• He cannot turn off His Glory/Holiness for our sake (even if He wanted to). That is why He had to engineer such an elaborate plan for our purification if there were to be any human survivors in His presence.

 

[RDKirk]

Minor quibble: I don't think that death was a product of the commandment as much as it was the product of the tree. The commandment was a heads-up.

The fruit of the tree was not toxic. God had already pronounced the fruit of every tree good for food.

It was the act of disobedience that created death, not any natural toxicity of the fruit.

Paul points out in Romans 7 that it's the commandment itself that brings death.

 

[Sabertooth]

..., not any natural toxicity of the fruit.

I wasn't thinking physical toxicity, but the warning could be framed as spiritual toxicity just based on the name of the tree (the Knowledge of Good & Evil).

If the point were ONLY about obedience, He could have picked any otherwise acceptable tree, like pineapple, for instance. Both the Tree of Life and the KOGE tree had inherent spiritual effects not found in the regular trees. The Tree of Life still had such power in it that He had to deny them access to it, afterwards [per Genesis 3:24].

 

[Ken Rank]

Victims being punished because they are deformed as a result of another's actions is a pretty serious charge against God. Romans clearly says Adam was our representative in his trial. Just as Jesus was our representative in his trial.

“for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.” (Romans 5:19)

And that position means that we never answer for ourselves and are not accountable for anything. Adam did it, Yeshua fixed it... and we're just along for the ride?

 

[Ken Rank]

Disagree with God ruling by sovereign decree. That would make him responsible for sin. A sovereign can control as much or as little as he chooses to. I suspect God allows more than he decrees. We know he planned Christ s incarnation and crucifixion, etc, but that leaves quite a bit of flexiblity as to how. People who constantly say God is in control seem to forget that God works in mysterious ways. No mystery in making everyone a robot.

He can know it will happen but not be the cause. And I think the opposite of robots... don't take my questions in the OP as my position(s), they were question meant to explore a subject.

 

[Ken Rank]

Wouldn't we have to consider that knowing what will occur doesn't mean it is mutually exclusive to control of those events? I mean if you have a 5 year old child riding a bike and you know that as he or she learns to ride the bike they will fall, does your foreknowledge of these events mean you are responsible just because you let them ride the bike?

I don't see God as responsible... I see God knowing we would fall and creating a way back to Him before we fell... and then allowing it to run it's course so that in the end, His family is made up of those who chose Him over the riches and pleasures of the world.

 

[Ken Rank]

We find Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden on the Eighth day. We are told everything was very good before they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil. We know now on the 8th day we will have the new Heaven and the New Earth. So Earth will become as Heaven is or once again Earth will become as Eden. Our prayer will be answered: "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven". I personally look forward to not having to deal with weeds anymore.

Yes, but they were created on the 6th was my point.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Gen 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
Gen 1:29 And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.
Gen 1:30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"; and it was so.
Gen 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

[Childofgodharrison]

Before Adam sinned, in fact, before God even created Adam, He knew Adam would fall. There are two places in Scripture that makes this clear:

1. A lamb slain from the creative time of the world...

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The word for foundation (katabolē G2502) means conception (as seen in Heb 11:11) and foundation or point of creation (Matt 13:35, John 17:24, and so forth). For a lamb to be slain at that point in creation, God had to know we would fall. By the way, I don't believe this is a literal lamb, not sure they had been created yet (that is unclear) but this event did at least take place in the mind of God.

2. The luminaries....

Gen 1:14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;

The word for seasons is moedim, which is not summer, fall, winter and spring but rather... Feasts, like Passover, Pentecost, and so forth. One of the reasons God placed the sun, moon and stars in the sky was so that His people would know when to keep the Appointed Times.

What does this have to do with knowing Adam would fall? Simply, that the feasts all point to various aspects of Messiah's work. Now I won't go into the detail of how each does this, I just posted a blog entry that covers each feast. You can read that HERE.

The question for discussion:

If God knew that Adam would fall before He created Adam, and this appears to be the case, then does it not stand to reason that everything He has done since that time was the create a scenario that ultimately, would testify of His mercy, grace, and goodness? I am not suggesting that He micromanages our lives... but the overall flow of both time and culture... do you believe that this is something He has His hand on... even if the culture continues to drift from Him? Do you see that as leading to the times that are coming? Or is He hands off and Satan is who drives the machine, culturally speaking?

Right now Satan is running everything, All of the systems that are set up for us to live are run by satan. This is only my opinion. I believe that the reason that we are here is because God wants children that are able to love him and his righteousness. The angels are his sons, but I have not read in the bible anywhere that they are able to love. They are ministering angels who can serve or not serve. We were given a soul which is able to love. The soul also wants to control and take the place of God by sustaining itself. So God had to allow man to fall, then make a way through Jesus for man to be reconciled back to him. To weed out the tainted souls and reap the humbled souls who are willing to do his will.

 

[RDKirk]

If the point were ONLY about obedience, He could have picked any otherwise acceptable tree, like pineapple, for instance.

Maybe He did.

 

[RDKirk]

Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world?...Do you not know that we will judge angels? -- 1 Corinthians 6

That statement is like a "spoiler" that an actor lets slip about the plot of an upcoming movie. We have to stop and say, "Wait...what?"

"To judge," in this context, harkens back to the judges of the OT--it's not talking about "judging" as in a court of law (for scripture already tells that God Himself will judge angels and men according to righteousness), but judging as in "leading."

So what does it take to make us capable of leading angels? What is the training program for that? What is the curriculum?

 

[joshua 1 9]

Yes, but they were created on the 6th was my point.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Gen 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
Gen 1:29 And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.
Gen 1:30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"; and it was so.
Gen 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Nahmanides taught that although the days are 24 hours each, they contain "kol yemot ha-olam" - all the ages and all the secrets of the world.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world?...Do you not know that we will judge angels? -- 1 Corinthians 6

We judge the world and we judge angels every day of our life. We do not want to follow satan and his demons. WE do not want to chase after the things of this world that are perishing. 1John2:22 "every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God"

 

[joshua 1 9]

Right now Satan is running everything

Not much longer. He knows that his time is short and soon he will be thrown into the bottomless pit. The Kingdoms of this world are to become the Kingdoms of God. We will rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. Then there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth.

The angels are his sons, but I have not read in the bible anywhere that they are able to love.

There are people that read Isaiah 14 and Ezekial 28 and they believe that Lucifer's heart was filled with pride. They say his job was worship leader in Heaven and 1/3 of the angels followed him in his rebellion. 1/3 of mankind will be saved and we will take over the job of worship before God.

You were an anointed guardian cherub.
I placed you;[d] you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.

 

[Childofgodharrison]

Not much longer. He knows that his time is short and soon he will be thrown into the bottomless pit. The Kingdoms of this world are to become the Kingdoms of God. We will rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. Then there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth.

The body of Christ will be persecuted first and it will be like the days of Noah. There will be giants and other creatures in the world. We will be told that they are aliens.

 

[joshua 1 9]

The body of Christ will be persecuted first and it will be like the days of Noah. There will be giants and other creatures in the world. We will be told that they are aliens.

It will be like the days of Noah. First the world was cleansed with water on the second day. Now the world will be cleansed with fire. God always has a remnant of 10% that repopulates the world. Isa 10:22 "Though your people, O Israel,be like the sand of the sea, only a remnant will return."

 

[Dave L]

And that position means that we never answer for ourselves and are not accountable for anything. Adam did it, Yeshua fixed it... and we're just along for the ride?

No, we are born sinners having been judged guilty as a species in Adam. A pit bull is a pit bull and if you need to watch out for one, you need to watch out for all.

 

[Dave L]

I punish my cats if they do wrong, even though they do not know right from wrong, they do know what I command them to do or not to do. Once Adam and Eve became aware of right from wrong they because responsible to do what is right.

Adam and Eve knew what God told them. In Heaven once you know the rules you are responsible to follow the rules. Onec God told them NOT to eat from that tree then they were responsible to follow what God told them.

This is interesting, but as I understand, Adam did not want to do right when God told him to. And after violating that law, all he wanted to do was break every law. There is the possibility that God gave him a new heart where he then hated sin and loved righteousness. We don't know.

 

[joshua 1 9]

This is interesting, but as I understand, Adam did not want to do right when God told him to. And after violating that law, all he wanted to do was break every law. There is the possibility that God gave him a new heart where he then hated sin and loved righteousness. We don't know.

I have heard stories about how Adam and Eve were saved. But I can not imagine what they would be like if we were to actually see them in Heaven. We see so many pictures of them wearing fig leaves for clothing & talking to a snake. Most likely their clothing was made from the fiber of a fig tree and it was more like paper for decoration. In order to leave Eden they would have needed clothing that would keep them warm in the colder climate outside of the river valley they were in. Still the story is they had a lot of grief over what they had done and that they did repent for their sin and transgression. There are common ancestors with a lot more descendants than Adam and Eve. Even the Hebrew nation was considered to be the least of all people. Still they have a lot of descendants and very famous ones at that. Not the least was that Jesus is descended from them. So it would make sense if they were still around and that they did not perish in their sin.