Are world events orchestrated?

[Ken Rank]

Before Adam sinned, in fact, before God even created Adam, He knew Adam would fall. There are two places in Scripture that makes this clear:

1. A lamb slain from the creative time of the world...

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The word for foundation (katabolē G2502) means conception (as seen in Heb 11:11) and foundation or point of creation (Matt 13:35, John 17:24, and so forth). For a lamb to be slain at that point in creation, God had to know we would fall. By the way, I don't believe this is a literal lamb, not sure they had been created yet (that is unclear) but this event did at least take place in the mind of God.

2. The luminaries....

Gen 1:14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;

The word for seasons is moedim, which is not summer, fall, winter and spring but rather... Feasts, like Passover, Pentecost, and so forth. One of the reasons God placed the sun, moon and stars in the sky was so that His people would know when to keep the Appointed Times.

What does this have to do with knowing Adam would fall? Simply, that the feasts all point to various aspects of Messiah's work. Now I won't go into the detail of how each does this, I just posted a blog entry that covers each feast. You can read that HERE.

The question for discussion:

If God knew that Adam would fall before He created Adam, and this appears to be the case, then does it not stand to reason that everything He has done since that time was the create a scenario that ultimately, would testify of His mercy, grace, and goodness? I am not suggesting that He micromanages our lives... but the overall flow of both time and culture... do you believe that this is something He has His hand on... even if the culture continues to drift from Him? Do you see that as leading to the times that are coming? Or is He hands off and Satan is who drives the machine, culturally speaking?

 

[Albion]

I am inclined to think it is neither of those two possibilities. Or maybe I should say I am somewhat in the middle--not everything about the movement of culture, etc. being scripted by God but not completely controlled by Satan either.

But when you say "He (God) has his hand on..." that leaves a lot of flexibility since God obviously cannot be totally absent from everyday events.

 

[Sabertooth]

I believe that God is, ultimately, in charge of history, but He includes the drives of humans and devils in that process. Satan thinking that he drove the Crucifixion is a perfect example.

 

[Dave L]

Before Adam sinned, in fact, before God even created Adam, He knew Adam would fall. There are two places in Scripture that makes this clear:

1. A lamb slain from the creative time of the world...

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The word for foundation (katabolē G2502) means conception (as seen in Heb 11:11) and foundation or point of creation (Matt 13:35, John 17:24, and so forth). For a lamb to be slain at that point in creation, God had to know we would fall. By the way, I don't believe this is a literal lamb, not sure they had been created yet (that is unclear) but this event did at least take place in the mind of God.

2. The luminaries....

Gen 1:14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;

The word for seasons is moedim, which is not summer, fall, winter and spring but rather... Feasts, like Passover, Pentecost, and so forth. One of the reasons God placed the sun, moon and stars in the sky was so that His people would know when to keep the Appointed Times.

What does this have to do with knowing Adam would fall? Simply, that the feasts all point to various aspects of Messiah's work. Now I won't go into the detail of how each does this, I just posted a blog entry that covers each feast. You can read that HERE.

The question for discussion:

If God knew that Adam would fall before He created Adam, and this appears to be the case, then does it not stand to reason that everything He has done since that time was the create a scenario that ultimately, would testify of His mercy, grace, and goodness? I am not suggesting that He micromanages our lives... but the overall flow of both time and culture... do you believe that this is something He has His hand on... even if the culture continues to drift from Him? Do you see that as leading to the times that are coming? Or is He hands off and Satan is who drives the machine, culturally speaking?

“Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect, as well as for the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper.” [Einstein: The Life and Times, Ronald W. Clark, Page 422.]

The Westminster & London Baptist Confessions said the same in different words nearly 400 years earlier.

*Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1

God's Eternal Decree

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

 

[joshua 1 9]

If God knew that Adam would fall before He created Adam

The alternative Explanation is that Adam was appointed to be join heir with Jesus from the beginning. The problem with this is they were clearly told not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Also before Adam and Eve we are told that everything was good: "And God looked upon all that He had made, and indeed, it was very good.And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day." Genesis 1:31

 

[joshua 1 9]

“Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end,

God declares the end from the beginning. He writes the book of our life before we are even born. Not everyone follows God's plan for them. In the end He will get everything straightened out. He watches over His word to be sure that His purpose is accomplished.

 

[Dave L]

If you look at the big picture, it helps understand the small picture. By Adam's sin, God was able to give us God's own righteousness. Which merits everything God himself merits in his infinite righteousness.

When Adam sinned, God imputed his sin to all his children. Adam represented them in the garden trial.

When Jesus (God) the second Adam remained sinless in his trial, God imputed his righteousness to us who believe in him, his children.

“for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.” (Romans 5:19)

So we have God's infinite righteousness and all it deserves in place of finite human righteousness and all it deserves.

 

[joshua 1 9]

When Adam sinned, God imputed his sin to all his children.

According to Science when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil the Frontal lobe evolved and they took on the ability to make a decision and decide between right and wrong, good and evil. Animals do not have the ability to choose the way Humans do. Today we can choose to perish as the animals do, or we can choose to be joint heirs with Christ.

Romans 8:17
And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ--if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

 

[Dave L]

According to Science when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil the Frontal lobe evolved and they took on the ability to make a decision and decide between right and wrong, good and evil. Animals do not have the ability to choose the way Humans do. Today we can choose to perish as the animals do, or we can choose to be joint heirs with Christ.

Romans 8:17
And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ--if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

So Adam didn't know right from wrong until after he sinned, but God punished him anyway?

 

[RDKirk]

So Adam didn't know right from wrong until after he sinned, but God punished him anyway?

Is it punishment?

And then...what exactly is "punishment?"

 

[Dave L]

Is it punishment?

And then...what exactly is "punishment?"

pun·ish·ment
ˈpəniSHmənt/
noun

1. the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.
   "crime demands just punishment"
   synonyms: penalizing, punishing, disciplining; More
   
   • the penalty inflicted.

 

[Ken Rank]

The alternative Explanation is that Adam was appointed to be join heir with Jesus from the beginning. The problem with this is they were clearly told not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Also before Adam and Eve we are told that everything was good: "And God looked upon all that He had made, and indeed, it was very good.And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day." Genesis 1:31

Well said, just a correction... the 7th day He rested, so if after the 6th day He said everything was good, then good included the guy He knew would fall.

 

[Ken Rank]

So Adam didn't know right from wrong until after he sinned, but God punished him anyway?

In Hebrew, the word for sin is chata'ah, which is a word we generally define as "missing the mark." But if you run what I am about to say past ANY Hebrew scholar, he or she will tell you I am correct. Chata'ah carries with it the intent to do right. Meaning... (think of an archer) you were trying to hit the target God desired you to hit, but being made less than God, we simply are not capable of perfection so we miss from time to time. It is unintentional... or even something done in ignorance.

So Adam knew the command (do not eat), and he went against the command. That goes beyond simple chata'ah and falls into the realm of sin with intent. In essence, God said no and Adam said yes. So yes, we should expect to see him punished and that punishment (death) extends to all who follow after Adam.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

When Adam sinned, God imputed his sin to all his children.

No He didn't. We are not guilty of Adam's sin, we suffer the CONSEQUENCES of it

 

[Dave L]

No He didn't. We are not guilty of Adam's sin, we suffer the CONSEQUENCES of it

This would be highly unjust. Scripture says: “for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.” (Romans 5:19)

We had no more to do with Adam's sin than we had to do with Christ's righteousness. Yet we experience the effects according to who represented us. If you trust in Christ, it is because he represented you. If you do not trust in Christ, it is because you remain cursed in Adam.

 

[Ken Rank]

This would be highly unjust. Scripture says: “for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.” (Romans 5:19)

We had no more to do with Adam's sin than we had to do with Christ's righteousness. Yet we experience the effects according to who represented us. If you trust in Christ, it is because he represented you. If you do not trust in Christ, it is because you remain cursed in Adam.

Adam existed in a realm foreign to us. Perhaps he was more light as some of the non-canonical books suggest? But what we KNOW is that the realm in which he lived in, and the conditions he lived in, is a realm and conditions we have no concept of having never seen nor lived in them. So Adam's sin disconnected him from God, turned off the light... however it is one envisions that.... and then we come after that in THOSE conditions.

My point is... we are not guilty of his sin, he sinned and when he did the conditions changed.... and we are subject to those altered conditions. We can't get to the garden in this life, we can walk in light but not as Adam did before sin... so I would suggest that @Yeshua HaDerekh is correct. We are not guilty of the sin (we all answer for our own actions, giving an account to God for only our actions) but we are most certainly affected by the consequences of Adam's sin.

 

[Dave L]

Adam existed in a realm foreign to us. Perhaps he was more light as some of the non-canonical books suggest? But what we KNOW is that the realm in which he lived in, and the conditions he lived in, is a realm and conditions we have no concept of having never seen nor lived in them. So Adam's sin disconnected him from God, turned off the light... however it is one envisions that.... and then we come after that in THOSE conditions.

My point is... we are not guilty of his sin, he sinned and when he did the conditions changed.... and we are subject to those altered conditions. We can't get to the garden in this life, we can walk in light but not as Adam did before sin... so I would suggest that @Yeshua HaDerekh is correct. We are not guilty of the sin (we all answer for our own actions, giving an account to God for only our actions) but we are most certainly affected by the consequences of Adam's sin.

Romans 5 says God considered us sinners in Adam. This is why babies who never consciously sin, die. The wages of sin is death. And he considered believers righteous in Christ, not because they are righteous, but because Jesus is.

 

[Ken Rank]

Romans 5 says God considered us sinners in Adam. This is why babies who never consciously sin, die. The wages of sin is death. And he considered believers righteous in Christ, not because they are righteous, but because Jesus is.

I know brother, and we are because we are born into a fallen state where we all will taste death. That is why Yeshua came... the second Adam to reverse the curse of the first Adam. But even though we are called sinners, and we ARE... we are because we are born into a realm, a fallen existence, a place less than the Garden... because of what Adam did.

Let me rephrase... Adam sinned and the penalty was death. We are born into that wage, that death... and are thus sinners because we are born into that realm. But that doesn't mean we are guilty of Adam's sin, it means we happen to receive the wage of HIS error.

I imagine we could go back and forth with this... and the truth is, we probably don't really disagree. You simply have words associated with this you are comfortable with, and I am using others ways to say it... but I am not sure we are really apart on this. If we are we are...

 

[Dave L]

I know brother, and we are because we are born into a fallen state where we all will taste death. That is why Yeshua came... the second Adam to reverse the curse of the first Adam. But even though we are called sinners, and we ARE... we are because we are born into a realm, a fallen existence, a place less than the Garden... because of what Adam did.

Let me rephrase... Adam sinned and the penalty was death. We are born into that wage, that death... and are thus sinners because we are born into that realm. But that doesn't mean we are guilty of Adam's sin, it means we happen to receive the wage of HIS error.

I imagine we could go back and forth with this... and the truth is, we probably don't really disagree. You simply have words associated with this you are comfortable with, and I am using others ways to say it... but I am not sure we are really apart on this. If we are we are...

The problem is in innocent people being born as victims. And not wicked people being born judged guilty in Adam who represented them and failed on their behalf.

 

[com7fy8]

He knew Adam would fall.

I consider that if you know what will happen in the future it is because you are in control of it.

Now, though, if I know fleas are going to bite my doggie, this does not mean I have brought the fleas to the poor dog, but I have chosen not to put a flea collar on my dog. And I have let the dog out where there are fleas. So, I do have total control. But I do not cause the flea energy to make the flea bit the dog, but I do determine if and when and where that flea with its energy can be driven to bite the dog.

something like this

does it not stand to reason that everything He has done since that time was the create a scenario that ultimately, would testify of His mercy, grace, and goodness?

While in full control, yes God has been bringing all to His good end. But there are people who will not benefit from this.

I am not suggesting that He micromanages our lives...

I personally can see even poetic connection of people's activities. I mean including names being similar, and people I know now looking enough like people from my past life in sin. I think at least five or six in my life is more than coincidence. And I can nowadays see lookalikes among people in my life now, including a new librarian who looks poetically enough like the head librarian I knew in another town. This keeps happening. I do not think humans have been arranging this. And these people did not control what they would look like, by the time I would see them. God is I see even in control of details of what people look like and where they will be.

In an outreach ministry, one woman looks a lot like one I went with years ago, plus she has the same first name as one of my first girlfriends when I was a kid, and her sister has the same name as the oldest daughter of my store front pastor while I was with an inner city church; and the name is not common. These are just a few examples, and it keeps happening.

So, I can see that micromanaging is an understatement

I am not suggesting that He micromanages our lives... but the overall flow of both time and culture...

"... and" the overall flow, I would say, then

But people are afraid to make it seem like God is a megalomaniac; but how humans can be controlling is not how God is. So, we should not fear how God is in perfect control, because all is for good. What matters is that we submit to God so we can flow with and enjoy Him while we share in His control and making His good use of it all through us.

Meanwhile, though >

"God resists the proud," we have in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5. So, in His all control God is resisting the proud. And His almighty resistance is very effective. So, ones boasting they control this world are fooling themselves. So, we can give it a rest, about worrying that there are conspiracy groups; God is resisting them, in case they do exist, and so what they can do is very limited; they are missing out on how they could love, and they can not stop us from loving and enjoying and submitting to our Heavenly Father who is personally ruling us in His own peace > Colossians 3:15.

By God's grace, then, we can always succeed in doing whatsoever God is committed to having us do in sharing with Him and each other. So, also . . . it does not matter what certain church leaders might do and boast they have the power to do it, because with God we can do all He pleases to love and benefit others deeply, including by your example. So, money and busy-ness can not do this.

I am not suggesting that He micromanages our lives... but the overall flow of both time and culture... do you believe that this is something He has His hand on... even if the culture continues to drift from Him?

"But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." (2 Timothy 3:13)

Because worldly people get worse, their culture is getting worse. Because people getting married are selfish and get worse, their marriages get worse. And God simply keeps management of which way they are allowed to go down. But God does use us to reach people and help them "from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God" (please see Acts 26:16).

Do you see that as leading to the times that are coming?

yes

Or is He hands off and Satan is who drives the machine, culturally speaking?

In the first chapter of Job, we see how Satan could do only what the LORD permitted. And people's own character has a lot to do with what you or I can give in to doing and if and how we can be effected by "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2)

And our own nature can have a lot to do with if and how we perceive who is causing our different thoughts and feelings and emotions and choices we make. I offer that Jesus is "gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:29), if we are living in His gentle and quiet and humble love and leading in submission to Him. And in the yoke of Jesus we can be personally guided during any and all of the evil and other stuff of this world; plus, we can have His immunity almighty of His peace that "will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus," (Philippians 4:6-7) while we obey how our Apostle Paul says for us to pray, in Philippians 4:6-7.

So, our character has a lot to do with what we can do. But, even so, I understand that God is in control of which way we might go because of how we really are in ourselves. So, whether He is really in control of all, or not, we need to actively seek our Heavenly Father for His correction so we can have more and more the nature of His love and the leading thereof