Are women Christians and Jewish Christians still under law?

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I have heard from some that the curse from Adam's time has been completely removed only for Gentile men.

I don't understand their semantics to back up their statements. Can this be discussed using scripture for and against the argument please.

Examples would be from @Dave-W (posted below) and I think I also heard @RDKirk expressing the same semantic, if they could contribute to the thread would be appreciated.

Myself I don't believe there is a difference between Jew, Gentile, slave, free, women or men in the accomplishments of Christ because that simply was the point of His mission was to make whole the body. I believe Paul used metaphors that people don't get past to find the truth. But I find that the metaphors are used as truth that I believe are really a lie are being propagated.

I prefer to stay out of that debate and would just like to hear the semantics it's coming from. Thanks

Why do some women contribute to their own oppression?

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I thought that curse was reversed at the cross?
Not “reversed,” but partly nullified. The full nullification will not occur until the very end, when we no longer have to deal with sickness or death.​

Hannah's prayer

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Good point. Do you believe that when Paul vowed that he was treading the line between old and new?
Not really. It boils down to the issue brought up at the First Jerusalem council in Acts 15 - which exempted GENTILE converts from following the Law of Moses. It did NOT include Jews who came to faith in Messiah. They still had (and HAVE) to follow the Law in a New Covenant way. .......

If that were true why would Gentile women still be inclusive. Makes no sense.​

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

I have heard from some that the curse from Adam's time has been completely removed only for Gentile men.

Well, that hardly seems fair. Any scripture supporting this absurd claim?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Well, that hardly seems fair. Any scripture supporting this absurd claim?

Really absurd. Basically it's saying Jesus' accomplishments freed gentile males exclusively! Everyone else is still under dominion of sin's consequences. In the case of women having another king over them. I believe we are in the image of Him to have dominion (kingship) of our lives in subjection to our Heavenly High Priest. Everyone!

 

[joshua 1 9]

I have heard from some that the curse from Adam's time has been completely removed only for Gentile men.

This is an absurd statement to make. Even under the law we choose if we want blessing or curse. "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" Deut 30:19

We can live a life unhindered and unrestricted. Who the Son sets free is free indeed. (John 8:36) "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" Gal 3:13 Because He gives us the power and the strength to live free from sin. (as long as we are not double minded)

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Really absurd. Basically it's saying Jesus' accomplishments freed gentile males exclusively!

I know in this age of feminism it's sometimes fun to tease and exaggerate the benefits and priveleges of being male, but I think this is probably going too far - I mean, what about Jewish men?!?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I know in this age of feminism it's sometimes fun to tease and exaggerate the benefits and priveleges of being male, but I think this is probably going too far - I mean, what about Jewish men?!?

Privileges of being a male are the same as being female. We are freed in Christ to sit with Him in the heavenliness. Some willingly forfeit that right. Others believe the lies propagated.

ETA: The lies then believed have effected spiritual robbery.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

This is an absurd statement to make. Even under the law we choose if we want blessing or curse. "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" Deut 30:19

Good point.

We can live a life unhindered and unrestricted. Who the Son sets free is free indeed. (John 8:36) "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" Gal 3:13 Because He gives us the power and the strength to live free from sin. (as long as we are not double minded)

I agree. Especially to the double-mindedness.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Double mindedness

James 1:8
being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
James 4:8
Draw near to God and He will draw near to you Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Psalms 119:113-115
I hate those who are double-minded, But I love Your law. You are my hiding place and my shield; I wait for Your word. Depart from me, evildoers, That I may observe the commandments of my God.
1 Kings 18:21
Elijah came near to all the people and said, "How long will you hesitate between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him." But the people did not answer him a word.
Isaiah 29:13
Then the Lord said, "Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,
Matthew 23:25-28
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
1 Timothy 3:8
Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,
1 Samuel 7:3
Then Samuel spoke to all the house of Israel, saying, "If you return to the LORD with all your heart, remove the foreign gods and the Ashtaroth from among you and direct your hearts to the LORD and serve Him alone; and He will deliver you from the hand of the Philistines."
Matthew 6:24
"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth.
James 4:4
You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
1 John 2:15
Do not love the world nor the things in the world If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Revelation 3:15-18
'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
2 Kings 17:33
They feared the LORD and served their own gods according to the custom of the nations from among whom they had been carried away into exile.
Luke 16:13
"No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth."
1 Corinthians 10:21
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
Psalms 12:2
They speak falsehood to one another; With flattering lips and with a double heart they speak.
Psalms 119:113
I hate those who are double-minded, But I love Your law.
Proverbs 25:26
Like a trampled spring and a polluted well Is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I know in this age of feminism it's sometimes fun to tease and exaggerate the benefits and priveleges of being male, but I think this is probably going too far - I mean, what about Jewish men?!?

Privileges of being a male are the same as being female. We are freed in Christ to sit with Him in the heavenliness. Some willingly forfeit that right. Others believe the lies propagated.

ETA: The lies then believed have effected spiritual robbery.

... - I mean, what about Jewish men?!?

Jewish men and Gentile women are it seems to be saying in the same boat of performing rituals to appease the OC rather than the New.

 

[dqhall]

Jewish men and Gentile women are it seems to be saying in the same boat of performing rituals to appease the OC rather than the New.

There are reformed Jews. These do not attempt the strict observance of the law attempted by the Orthodox Jews. A person is under whatever law he or she accepts. A person may also consider whether a law or tradition the community observes or enforces has merit.

Jesus healed a man with a shriveled hand on the Sabbath. His neighbors saw he was working on the Sabbath and knew the punishment for working on the Sabbath was death. They wanted to kill him (Mark 3:1-6). Jesus rejected their interpretation of the law and continued to heal on the Sabbath.

Jesus taught the law against murder have not passed away: Matthew 5:21 (WEB) “You have heard that it was said to the ancient ones, ‘You shall not murder;’ and ‘Whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’22 But I tell you, that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause will be in danger of the judgment; and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ will be in danger of the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna.

If one knows Christ, one will not boast of lewdness (lust) and adultery: Matthew 5:27-28 (WEB) 27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery;’ 28 but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart."

​

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

There are reformed Jews. These do not attempt the strict observance of the law attempted by the Orthodox Jews. A person is under whatever law he or she accepts. A person may also consider whether a law or tradition the community observes or enforces has merit.​

Judaism isn't Christianity but a God-given reformation of the old to the new. Jew and Gentile inaugurated into a new Kingdom that has Jesus only where Moses (law) and Elijah (prophets) used to be & where God has said "This is My Son, listen to Him" See also Hebrews 1:1-2. The spiritual law is what is effective to salvation, but that can be accepted or rejected, no matter what else is observed or enforced. Merit to humans doesn't mean merit to God.

Jesus healed a man with a shriveled hand on the Sabbath. His neighbors saw he was working on the Sabbath and knew the punishment for working on the Sabbath was death. They wanted to kill him (Mark 3:1-6). Jesus rejected their interpretation of the law and continued to heal on the Sabbath.

Jesus taught the law against murder have not passed away: Matthew 5:21 (WEB) “You have heard that it was said to the ancient ones, ‘You shall not murder;’ and ‘Whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’22 But I tell you, that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause will be in danger of the judgment; and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ will be in danger of the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna.

If one knows Christ, one will not boast of lewdness (lust) and adultery: Matthew 5:27-28 (WEB) 27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery;’ 28 but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart."

That just proves that we have moved beyond outward observances, beyond the ritual of circumcision of the flesh to the inner reality of circumcision of the heart.

Besides bringing all, male/female, Jew/Gentile into one Body His accomplishments were met thru the new heart ... biblically stated as circumcision of the heart. I think that is what is being missed in this.

 

[Matthew13:9]

No Christian is under the law to Moses but under the law to Christ.

And this is his commandment that we love one another being the children of God.

Romans 13:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[Hazelelponi]

This is My Son listen to Him is not a quote from anywhere.. when your paraphrasing multiple scriptures into concepts of your own words it's honest to skip the quotations..

As for what covenant we are under - ALL Jew and Gentile alike are under the New, and there is no "Mosaic law" to be followed. To preach the Mosaic law in New Covenant times is to preach people back under the law and as such, preach them into hell.

When the Temple was still in existence the Apostles going to Temple to hear the recitation of Scripture and participate in some of the goings on there while preaching Christ to those not yet saved is a FAR different scenario than preaching people back under Mosaic law and death.

Being circumcised so you can go preach to the lost in an existing Temple (prior to 70AD) is also a far different scenario than preaching Jews circumcised as if it's law under the New Covenant.

Reading the Bible is a great help.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

This is My Son listen to Him is not a quote from anywhere.. when your paraphrasing multiple scriptures into concepts of your own words it's honest to skip the quotations..

As for what covenant we are under - ALL Jew and Gentile alike are under the New, and there is no "Mosaic law" to be followed. To preach the Mosaic law in New Covenant times is to preach people back under the law and as such, preach them into hell.

When the Temple was still in existence the Apostles going to Temple to hear the recitation of Scripture and participate in some of the goings on there while preaching Christ to those not yet saved is a FAR different scenario than preaching people back under Mosaic law and death.

Being circumcised so you can go preach to the lost in an existing Temple (prior to 70AD) is also a far different scenario than preaching Jews circumcised as if it's law under the New Covenant.

Reading the Bible is a great help.

Matthew 17

1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” 8 When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.​

The Judaist religion itself has undergone the transformation into Christianity.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Matthew 17

1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” 8 When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.​

The Judaist religion itself has undergone the transformation into Christianity.

I still believe if your going to quote it shouldn't be your own paraphrase...

And yes, we are the Jews.. the only reason the word Christianity is used is to separate us from those who didn't recognize the Messiah.

Doesn't mean you can preach people back under law and death..

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I still believe if your going to quote it shouldn't be your own paraphrase...

And yes, we are the Jews.. the only reason the word Christianity is used is to separate us from those who didn't recognize the Messiah.

Doesn't mean you can preach people back under law and death..

No, Jew is nationalist.

 

[Hazelelponi]

No, Jew is nationalist.

Even in the New Testament Jew is a word for the faith, not nationality. Romans 2:29

While the nationality (largely) brought forth Jesus and then went outward to the nation's, it was always a faith and not a nationality only. See Ruth...plenty of people not born a jew, who became one even in old testament times.

Jew is synonymous with a congregation of people worshipping God, a specific religion.. it is not only a nationality.

If it was a nationality then (depending on how you'd like to read my ancestry) I would have been called a Jew when I was a practicing Muslim. Go figure.

Israeli is a nationality. Jew hasn't been one in thousands of years.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Even in the New Testament Jew is a word for the faith, not nationality. Romans 2:29

The quote from Romans 2:29 is more specific to the circumcision of the heart and to which I was pointing out as being excluded from reasoning, not as to nationality because there are a lot of prophesies that have OC promises that don't apply to NC, such as inheritances. But that is beyond the context of this thread.

While the nationality (largely) brought forth Jesus and then went outward to the nation's, it was always a faith and not a nationality only. See Ruth...plenty of people not born a jew, who became one even in old testament times.

Ruth was the means of bringing into the picture the analogy of the Kinsman Reedemer representing Christ's work just as male and female are representative of Christ and the church.

Jew is synonymous with a congregation of people worshipping God, a specific religion.. it is not only a nationality.

I think that Nazarene and Nazarite are more befitting both of these examples.

If it was a nationality I would have been called a Jew when I was a practicing Muslim. Go figure.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The quote from Romans 2:29 is more specific to the circumcision of the heart and to which I was pointing out as being excluded from reasoning, not as to nationality because there are a lot of prophesies that have OC promises that don't apply to NC, such as inheritances. But that is beyond the context of this thread.

Ruth was the means of bringing into the picture the analogy of the Kinsman Reedemer representing Christ's work just as male and female are representative of Christ and the church.


I think that Nazarene and Nazarite are more befitting both of these examples. Another N word, go figger.

Reinterpreting scripture to fit a preferred outcome isn't intellectually honest.

Just because the story (itself) of Ruth teaches us something important, (as all Scripture does) it doesn't mean she was an exception such that we cant or shouldnt teach conversion - people were able to convert into the religion of the Hebrews (known as Judaism). Ruth, a foreigner, was even in the bloodline of Christ.

As to what you personally prefer to call Israelis versus Jewish Christians (Christian meaning follower of Christ) likely doesn't matter unless your simply trying to start a new trend..

Language is about communicating thoughts and ideas, and its good to stick with what is known and clear. Romans 2:29 shows you 'Jew' is far more than a nationality, but rather is a codified religion that is not based in flesh.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Reinterpreting scripture to fit a preferred outcome isn't intellectually honest.

Just because the story (itself) of Ruth teaches us something important, (as all Scripture does) it doesn't mean she was an exception such that we cant or shouldnt teach conversion - people were able to convert into the religion of the Hebrews (known as Judaism). Ruth, a foreigner, was even in the bloodline of Christ.

As to what you personally prefer to call Israelis versus Jewish Christians (Christian meaning follower of Christ) likely doesn't matter unless you simply trying to start a new trend..

Language is about communicating thoughts and ideas, and its good to stick with what is known and clear. Romans 2:29 shows you 'Jew' is far more than a nationality, but rather is a codified religion that is not based in flesh.

It seems to me that your deliberately confusing issues, but if that makes you feel justified to accuse me of re-iterpreting scripture then it must be pointed out that our interpretations are just that. Have a good day.