Are we saved by faith alone or faith plus works?

[Silverback]

How do you reconcile the book of Romans and the Book of James?

I personally believe in salvation by grace alone.

The preponderance of evidence in the scriptures speaks of salvation by God's grace, for Christ sake, through faith.

However, here comes James, who says "we are not saved by faith alone" to say this one verse has not caused me some issues in the past would be untrue.

I have read many interpretations of James, and most seem to be a stretch.

Martin Luther called the book "straw" and I'm not sure he ever reconciled the apparent contradiction.

However, "the just shall live by faith"

The law started out with 10 commandments, that no one could keep, then another 602 rules were added to try to keep us from breaking the first 10, and that failed as well. Then God gave us just two
"You shall love the lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself" we can't obey those either.

I will stick with grace!

 

[timothyu]

However, here comes James, who says "we are not saved by faith alone" to say this one verse has not caused me some issues in the past would be untrue.

If one does not do the works as a result, putting the will of God before the will of man and loving all neighbours as self, then they never caught on to the concept of the Kingdom and the change required of them in the first place. Jesus gave us the Kingdom and salvation by way of it but we don't get to carry on as usual. Not everyone gets in without a switch of allegiance from world of man to Kingdom of God. If there was no change there would be no need to be born and see and live of the spirit, instead remaining stuck in the fleshy ways and thinking of man which are an offence to God.

 

[Silverback]

If one does not do the works as a result, putting the will of God before the will of man and loving all neighbours as self, then they never caught on to the concept of the Kingdom and the change required of them in the first place. Jesus gave us the Kingdom and salvation by way of it but we don't get to carry on as usual. Not everyone gets in without a switch of allegiance from world of man to Kingdom of God. If there was no change there would be no need to be born and see and live of the spirit, instead remaining stuck in the fleshy ways and thinking of man which are an offence to God.

Agreed, good works are the fruit of salvation, not the cause.

 

[timothyu]

Agreed, good works are the fruit of salvation, not the cause.

That's right, the gift was free to all but individuals must be worthy in understanding and rejecting that which first got us in this situation. Repent and let your works show the change.

 

[paul becke]

I personally believe in salvation by grace alone.

The preponderance of evidence in the scriptures speaks of salvation by God's grace, for Christ sake, through faith.

However, here comes James, who says "we are not saved by faith alone" to say this one verse has not caused me some issues in the past would be untrue.

I have read many interpretations of James, and most seem to be a stretch.

Martin Luther called the book "straw" and I'm not sure he ever reconciled the apparent contradiction.

However, "the just shall live by faith"

The law started out with 10 commandments, that no one could keep, then another 602 rules were added to try to keep us from breaking the first 10, and that failed as well. Then God gave us just two
"You shall love the lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself" we can't obey those either.

I will stick with grace!

----------------
Paul stressed that it was grace not the Law that saves us, but, as does the whole of the New Testament, he also spoke constantly about earning God's approval by means of our Christian lives, the way in which we conduct ourselves and live our faith. Just saying to God, I have faith in Jesus and that I rely entirely on his grace for my salvation', will not cut it. Not everyone who calls me, Lord, Lord will be saved......' Obedience to God absolutely demands merciful loving actions towards our fellows. Jesus could scarcely have made it clearer than he did in Matthew 25.

In the course of its history, the Catholic church has suffered many imbalances, as a result of the sins of men, as have the mainstream Protestant churches, set up in the first place as a result of the utter exasperation of their founders. Lately, however, popes have 'made no bones' about the fact that they had muddied the water, and that, as Protestant churches have insisted, it should be stressed that the ultimate source of our salvation is faith, not works ; works are their proximate source. Both sources are necessary. There is no inherent contradiction.

 

[paul becke]

----------------
Paul stressed that it was grace not the Law that saves us, but, as does the whole of the New Testament, he also spoke constantly about earning God's approval by means of our Christian lives, the way in which we conduct ourselves and live our faith. Just saying to God, I have faith in Jesus and that I rely entirely on his grace for my salvation', will not cut it. Not everyone who calls me, Lord, Lord will be saved......' Obedience to God absolutely demands merciful loving actions towards our fellows. Jesus could scarcely have made it clearer than he did in Matthew 25.

In the course of its history, the Catholic church has suffered many imbalances, as a result of the sins of men, as have the mainstream Protestant churches, set up in the first place as a result of the utter exasperation of their founders. Lately, however, popes have 'made no bones' about the fact that they had muddied the water, and that, as Protestant churches have insisted, it should be stressed that the ultimate source of our salvation is faith, not works ; works are their proximate source. Both sources are necessary. There is no inherent contradiction.

Incidentally, as regards hermits, when not dragooned into forming monasteries and convents (pursuant to the Lord's proximate requirement that we should go to the aid of those in great need of human care and assistance), they were, of course, given to an ascetical life propitious to more or less constant prayer.

However, while there is no proximate, needy beneficiary, prayer is considered by the church to be the most arduous form of work, and obviously meritorious, since urged on us by Jesus, himself. A little tangential, admittedly, but there is a Latin motto, 'Laborare est orare' : to work is to pray.' So, in the right religious setting, the terms can be reversed - sort of palindromic.

But, then, our intention is always what gives merit to our actions, isn't it ? God is not interested in our heads, but in the disposition of our hearts.








,

 

[SkyWriting]

@topher694 The word justified means exampled? I would like to believe that but I'm going to need proof.

You can have faith that causes your actions to change as a symptom.
You can change your actions all day long and can even cause harm to your faith.
Faith is not a symptom of works.

 

[ace of hearts]

How do you reconcile the book of Romans and the Book of James?

If one reads the first 6 chapters of Romans they can't believe salvation comes in full or partly by works.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This passage nails down your question for me with a very conclusive answer.

 

[paul becke]

If one reads the first 6 chapters of Romans they can't believe salvation comes in full or partly by works.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This passage nails down your question for me with a very conclusive answer.

The New Testament is full of references to earning God's approval by appropriately responding to his Grace by performing good works. Here is one such reference, also in Romansn i.e. 2:6,7 :

'He will repay everyone as their deeds deserve.' For those who aimed for glory and honour and immortality by persevering in doing good, there will be eternal life ; but for those who, out of jealousy, have taken for their guide, not truth but injustice, there will be the fury of retribution. Trouble and distress will come to every human being who does evil - Jews frst, but Greeks as well ; glory and honour and peace will come to everyone who does good - Jews first, but Greeks as well. There is no favouritism with God.'

It's not that we can earn our salvation by works, alone : that would be Pelagianism, I believe. Faith is meaningless if it is taken to mean simply 'credence', 'belief' ; as James makes clear, it is commitment to belief n Chrsit and his Gospel, and that necessarily entails actions. Not that they are successful compliances with the Law ; we know that we are all incapable of that. Al God requires is that we show willing and that means, to 'show loving'.

For goodness sake, Jesus told us that we are to see HIMSELF in the disadvantaged, whether by poverty or sickness or whatever, and not just float by regardless, just telling them : 'Have a nice day !'

 

[ace of hearts]

The New Testament is full of references to earning God's approval by appropriately responding to his Grace by performing good works. Here is one such reference, also in Romansn i.e. 2:6,7 :

'He will repay everyone as their deeds deserve.' For those who aimed for glory and honour and immortality by persevering in doing good, there will be eternal life ; but for those who, out of jealousy, have taken for their guide, not truth but injustice, there will be the fury of retribution. Trouble and distress will come to every human being who does evil - Jews frst, but Greeks as well ; glory and honour and peace will come to everyone who does good - Jews first, but Greeks as well. There is no favouritism with God.'

It's not that we can earn our salvation by works, alone : that would be Pelagianism, I believe. Faith is meaningless if it is taken to mean simply 'credence', 'belief' ; as James makes clear, it is commitment to belief n Chrsit and his Gospel, and that necessarily entails actions. Not that they are successful compliances with the Law ; we know that we are all incapable of that. Al God requires is that we show willing and that means, to 'show loving'.

For goodness sake, Jesus told us that we are to see HIMSELF in the disadvantaged, whether by poverty or sickness or whatever, and not just float by regardless, just telling them : 'Have a nice day !'

Will allow you to think you can earn God's approval all you wish. Romans says those wages are death. You can have mine. I'll accept the free gift which is a much better deal IMHO.

It's obvious to me either you didn't read and understand Eph 2:8-9 or don't believe it.

 

[BCsenior]

It's obvious to me either you (Paul Becke) didn't read and understand
Eph 2:8-9 or don't believe it.

Sorry, but you don't understand it, for ...
Eph 2:8-9 refers to initially receiving salvation!
It's all by the free grace of God.
However ...
the rest of the epistles WARN that
this salvation is conditional
and the BAC has responsibilities
to maintain his salvation through
co-operation with the precious Holy Spirit.

News Flash ... BACs have free will to
disobey the Lord and be disqualified.
No human being is a robot.
That's what all of the testing is about.
Hebrews says disobedience = unbelief.
How far are you going to get with unbelief?

 

[FireDragon76]

I am convicted that faith and works work together towards the final end; our final salvation. We must also follow Christ. That takes time. It's a journey.

Just how much does one have to cooperate with God through their works to have any assurance of being justified? There's so much vague in Catholicism, I do not blame Luther for becoming a nervous wreck. In reality, the only way this system can work, is to preach a cheapened form of the Law called legalism, and that's mostly what Catholics did up until the last few decades.

Even Pascal and the Jansenists criticized this approach to the Christian faith. Salvation involves death and life, not acquiring of Aristotilian virtue.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Just how much does one have to cooperate with God through their works to have any assurance of being justified?

Until the end.

 

[FireDragon76]

Until the end.

Sounds like there is very little assurance in Roman Catholicism, by your accounting. Why be Catholic, then? Even if Rome's doctrines were true, it would exclude so many human beings from having any real peace with God, it would be dire indeed. As Luther once did, we might simply find meager joy contemplating our damnation rather than the seemingly hopeless lot of trying to be justified by our works by a God who is just waiting to punish us and only offers forgiveness conditionally.

 

[FireDragon76]

I personally believe in salvation by grace alone.

The preponderance of evidence in the scriptures speaks of salvation by God's grace, for Christ sake, through faith.

However, here comes James, who says "we are not saved by faith alone" to say this one verse has not caused me some issues in the past would be untrue.

I have read many interpretations of James, and most seem to be a stretch.

Martin Luther called the book "straw" and I'm not sure he ever reconciled the apparent contradiction.

However, "the just shall live by faith"

The law started out with 10 commandments, that no one could keep, then another 602 rules were added to try to keep us from breaking the first 10, and that failed as well. Then God gave us just two
"You shall love the lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself" we can't obey those either.

I will stick with grace!

James is a book of contested apostolicity, what we call antilegomena, that's how Lutherans traditionally understood it, and how Luther understood it. It wasn't an arbitrary "I don't like Jame's message, so I'll ignore it". While it useful for preaching the Law, it has no Gospel, and it is wrong to use it as such.

Even secular historians believe that Paul is at least the originator, if not the articulator, of what we recognize today as Christianity. So it would be wise to focus on Paul's theology as primary in discussing what is and is not a dogma of the faith.

 

[timothyu]

it has no Gospel, and it is wrong to use it as such.

Plenty of good news with James. Remember Jesus only taught one gospel and that was the Gospel of the Kingdom. James clearly refers to that Gospel and shows the difference between the Kingdom and the world of man to which Jesus' gospel refers.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

 

[Strong in Him]

Until the end.

That would make it conditional - Jesus died for us but we have to play our part or we won't be saved. That implies that what Jesus did, isn't enough.
But on the cross, Jesus said, "it is finished". He had done what he came to do; reconcile mankind to God. Scripture says that salvation is through Jesus alone, John 14:6, Acts of the Apostles 2:21, Acts of the Apostles 2:38, Acts of the Apostles 4:12, Romans 10:9, Ephesians 2:8-9, 1 John 5:12.

If I believed I had to do good works, on top of what Jesus had done or I wouldn't be saved, I'd always be worried that I hadn't done enough.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How do you reconcile the book of Romans and the Book of James?

Believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5). But make no mistake, Scripture is also abundantly clear in that it teaches we are saved by "works of faith" after we are saved by God's grace, too. Simply click on the following spoiler button to check out the verses.

Spoiler

After we are saved by God's grace,

God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

There are five things (as a whole) in the Bible that people are not getting when they read Paul, and thus they easily misunderstand him in justifying a false "sin and still be saved" or "Belief Alone" type gospel (Which is no doubt appealing because it means that a person does not have to change their life all that much and they can live for themselves instead of the Lord). But Jesus says, "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? (Luke 6:46) (NHEB).

Here are the 5 things (as a whole) in Scripture that your average
Christian does not understand when they read Paul:

#1. The Bible teaches that there is a change of the Law (Hebrews 7:12); So when Paul talks about the "Law" (generically), he is referring to the Torah, i.e. the Old Law (or the many laws given to Moses and Israel) and not the commandments given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers (i.e. the New Law or New Testament Law).

#2. Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

#3. The Bible speaks against the "False Pharisee Religion" that Paul used to be part of (Which taught: "Law Alone Salvationism" or "Works Alone Salvationism" without God's grace, i.e. Jesus Christ) (See Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42, Luke 18:9-14). Hence, why Paul said we are saved by God's grace through faith and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and that we are not saved by works of righteousness that we have done but we are saved by his mercy (Titus 3:5).

#4. The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

#5. The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

 

[FireDragon76]

Plenty of good news with James. Remember Jesus only taught one gospel and that was the Gospel of the Kingdom. James clearly refers to that Gospel and shows the difference between the Kingdom and the world of man to which Jesus' gospel refers.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

This is really a false dichotomy. The forgiveness of sins is part of the "Gospel of the Kingdom", as you put it. We just focus on the forgiveness of sins because it was such a significant part of Jesus ministry, and we believe he comissioned the Church to do the same.

Modern day Lutherans are not merely an otherworldly, individualistic religion about personal guilt, we do indeed talk about Jesus' ministry and how it reflects God's mission in the world.

 

[timothyu]

This is really a false dichotomy.

Well Jesus said it was his Gospel so anything added would create the dichotomy. And the separation He taught of being between the Kingdom of God and the self willed world of man was the basis of the separation between God and man all throughout the Bible