Are we saved by faith alone or faith plus works?

[JLB777]

I see you're still trying to prove that Jesus lied in John 10:27 and 28.

But He didn't. So every verse you opine that speaks of losing salvation is a verse that you just don't understand, or can't rightly divide.

Jesus is the Truth.


The result of obeying verse 27, is the promise of verse 28.


Very simple.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

Could you explain specifically how a believer accesses this power?

By obeying the Gospel.


It’s called grace.



JLB

 

[paul becke]

James epistle probably wasn't even written by the apostle James. That's why Lutherans do not consider it a basis for dogma. It has nothing to do with supposed libertinism. We focus on Paul as the source of Christian dogma, not epistles of disputed authorship.

probably, schmobably.... You're probably banking on God probably being sympathetic if you've got it wrong. It's all presumption from start to finish. Probably wasn't written by James !

 

[FireDragon76]

probably, schmobably.... You're probably banking on God probably being sympathetic if you've got it wrong. It's all presumption from start to finish. Probably wasn't written by James !

I'll be blunt, I see no reason to assume the epistle of James is apostolic.

 

[JLB777]

I'll be blunt, I see no reason to assume the epistle of James is apostolic.

But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. Galatians 1:19



JLB

 

[FireDragon76]

But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. Galatians 1:19



JLB

But most scholars do not believe the epistle of James was actually written by James.

 

[JLB777]

But most scholars do not believe the epistle of James was actually written by James.

“Most scholars” ?


You start down that road and the devil will have you denying any of the Bible is from God.


WAKE UP!!!!


JLB

 

[FireDragon76]

“Most scholars” ?


You start down that road and the devil will have you denying any of the Bible is from God.


WAKE UP!!!!


JLB

I've been believing this for years and so far I haven't apostasized. I see no reason to reject what I believe to be true.

And it was known back in Luther's day that the epistle of James was a book of dubious apostolicity. This is nothing new.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus is the Truth.

He sure is. And what He says is the truth. Such as those He gives eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

The result of obeying verse 27, is the promise of verse 28.
Very simple.

Yes, very simple. But you still can't rightly divide the word of truth regarding John 10:27 and 28.

v.27 is a statement of POLICY regarding believers. It's what they ARE SUPPOSED TO DO.

You can't find ANY verbiage that equals a condition for becoming a sheep of Jesus, or a condition for never perishing in that verse. It's a straightforward description of the policy of Jesus' sheep. Nothing more, or less.

v.28 is a clear straightforward statement about the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."

The red words are the CAUSE of possessing eternal life; Jesus Christ the giver.

The blue words are the EFFECT of possessing eternal life; they will never perish.

This is irrefutable.

The ONLY REASON a person possesses eternal life is because Jesus gave it to them. John 5:24 and 6:47 tells us that He gives eternal life to those who believe in Him.

The result or effect of possessing eternal life is that you will never perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Could you explain specifically how a believer accesses this power?

By obeying the Gospel.

You have no idea how a believer is filled with the Spirit, by this answer.

What you've stated is how one becomes born again, saved, sealed with the Holy Spirit, and given eternal life. This isn't even close to how to access the filling of the Holy Spirit.

Paul commands believers to STOP grieving (Eph 5:18) and STOP quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.

Do you understand how a believer grieves/quenches the Spirit? By your previous answer, probably not.

It’s called grace.

Yes, something you don't understand. Or you wouldn't believe that salvation can be lost.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'll be blunt, I see no reason to assume the epistle of James is apostolic.

What is your assumption based on?

 

[FreeGrace2]

But most scholars do not believe the epistle of James was actually written by James.

Who do these scholars think wrote James then?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I've been believing this for years and so far I haven't apostasized. I see no reason to reject what I believe to be true.

And it was known back in Luther's day that the epistle of James was a book of dubious apostolicity. This is nothing new.

Luther's problem was ignorance. He simply couldn't reconcile James and Romans. He had no idea that Paul spoke of justification from the perspective of God, while James spoke of justification in the eyes of others.

There are many verses that speak to these 2 perspectives:

Justification in James is in the eyes of others

There is much confusion and misunderstanding of James 2:14-26. When he asked, "can that faith (without works) save?", he wasn't speaking of eternal salvation. If he were, then he would have been contradicting the rest of the Bible, esp Paul. So we need to understand what his point was in that passage. It was about hypocrisy, or rather, the need to not be a hypocrite. The example he gave in 2:15,16 very clearly describes a hypocrite; one who says one thing, but acts in a totally contrary manner.

2:18 makes the point that it is impossible to demonstrate your faith apart from works. iow, how does man "see" our faith? Since mankind isn't omniscient, we depend upon works to demonstrate our faith to others. God doesn't need to see one's faith to know it exists. But man does need to see one's faith, and that is on the basis of one's works.

James was definitely NOT saying that one needs works with faith in order to be saved. If he were, then he would be contradicting the rest of the Bible. So we have to understand that he couldn't possibly be saying that.

So, the question is: "saved from what, specifically?" Because he point was about not being a hypocrite, he wanted his readers to be saved, or delivered, or rescued from the charge of hypocrisy. Which the example clearly illustrates.

James, the Lord's half brother, was very familiar with His teachings. We know how many times He called the Pharisees hypocrites. Many. It makes sense that James was concerned that believers weren't living out their faith in front of others. That is hypocrisy, and he didn't want the believers to be branded hypocrites.

There is nothing more effective at ruining one's character or reputation than being seen as a hypocrite. James was trying to warn his readers about that. I know he never used the word, but look at all of ch 2 and 3:1-12. All of it is about hypocrisy. 2:1-13 is about how believers treated a rich man vs a poor man; favoritism is hypocrisy. 2:14-26 is about not living our your faith before others. 3:1-12 is about the hypocrisy of how believers use their tongue; in what they say, which is again, hypocrisy.

There are a number of verses that supports the idea that James was concerned about how believers live their lives before others.

Rom 12:17 - Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.

This verse specifically notes the perspective of others.

Rom 14:18 - For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.

This verse directly notes how our lifestyle is acceptable/approved by God and by men.

2 Cor 5:12 - We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart.

Man cannot see the heart; only God can, which is where our faith is. So, by living our our faith, we have an answer for those who take pride in appearance.

2 Cor 8:21 - for we have regard for what is honorable, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.

This could not be more clear: in the sight of the Lord (for justification) and in the sight of men (for their approval or justification).

Col 4:5 - Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity.

1 Tim 3:7 - And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Clearly speaking of having a good testimony before others (outside the church-unbelievers), which avoids the charge of hypocrisy.

1 Thess 4:12 - so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

Ditto

1 Pet 2:12 - Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Clearly Peter is emphasizing that believers who live out their faith, not being hypocrites, will have a positive effect upon unbelievers.

1 Jn 3:18 - Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

This is directly linked to James 2:15,16; the example of the believer who told people "be warmed and filled" but didn't do anything to meet their needs. He was a blatant hypocrite. iow, he "loved only with word or tongue", but definitely not "in deed and truth".

 

[def]

How do you reconcile the book of Romans and the Book of James?

They are tied to the New Covenant. My book, 'Interpreting the Gospel with Complexity Theory', explains the relationship. The eBook is available free for three days from Amazon. Check it out, it costs you nothing and it will help you.

 

[JLB777]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Could you explain specifically how a believer accesses this power?

You have no idea how a believer is filled with the Spirit, by this answer.

What you've stated is how one becomes born again, saved, sealed with the Holy Spirit, and given eternal life. This isn't even close to how to access the filling of the Holy Spirit.

Paul commands believers to STOP grieving (Eph 5:18) and STOP quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.

Do you understand how a believer grieves/quenches the Spirit? By your previous answer, probably not.


Yes, something you don't understand. Or you wouldn't believe that salvation can be lost.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Can you explain to all of us how a brother can hate his brother and no longer have eternal life remaining in him, yet somehow still be saved?




JLB

 

[JLB777]

He sure is. And what He says is the truth. Such as those He gives eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28


Yes, very simple. But you still can't rightly divide the word of truth regarding John 10:27 and 28.

v.27 is a statement of POLICY regarding believers. It's what they ARE SUPPOSED TO DO.

You can't find ANY verbiage that equals a condition for becoming a sheep of Jesus, or a condition for never perishing in that verse. It's a straightforward description of the policy of Jesus' sheep. Nothing more, or less.

v.28 is a clear straightforward statement about the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."

The red words are the CAUSE of possessing eternal life; Jesus Christ the giver.

The blue words are the EFFECT of possessing eternal life; they will never perish.

This is irrefutable.

The ONLY REASON a person possesses eternal life is because Jesus gave it to them. John 5:24 and 6:47 tells us that He gives eternal life to those who believe in Him.

The result or effect of possessing eternal life is that you will never perish.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



How can a born again Christian continue to remain in Christ, who doesn’t keep His commandments?




JLB

 

[timothyu]

That means they can NEVER perish.

Once you see who you really are compared to what the world wants you to see, you can never go back.

 

[FireDragon76]

What is your assumption based on?

Since the early church, the epistle we call "The Epistle of James" has been disputed as to its authorship.

Epistle of James - Wikipedia

"there is little consensus as to the genre, structure, dating, and authorship of the book of James." ...
...
There are four "commonly espoused" views concerning authorship and dating of the Epistle of James:

1. the letter was written by James before the Pauline Epistles,
2. the letter was written by James after the Pauline Epistles,
3. the letter is pseudonymous,
4. the letter comprises material originally from James but reworked by a later editor.[7]

As far as Lutherans are concerned, the lack of certainty means we cannot accept it as a source for dogma. It is however, something we read in church for edification and it is in our Bibles.

 

[timothyu]

I'll be blunt, I see no reason to assume the epistle of James is apostolic.

Would his lack of gentility have anything to do with it? Yet he was the one that gave Paul the go ahead.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Can you explain to all of us how a brother can hate his brother and no longer have eternal life remaining in him, yet somehow still be saved?
JLB

I've done this many times before, yet you simply ignore and reject the explanation.

Are you in a different frame of mind now?

What you refuse to accept is the meaning of "abiding", as used by John. As one of Jesus' inner 3, he was very familiar with how Jesus used it in John 15, to refer to fellowship.

A concept you have demonstrated that you do not understand at all.