Are we saved by faith alone or faith plus works?

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
That means they can NEVER perish.

Once you see who you really are compared to what the world wants you to see, you can never go back.

Could you explain how your comment relates to my comment?

Jesus gave us a parable about those who believe for a while and then, due to temptation/testing, fall away.

1 Tim 4 tells us of those who apostatize from the faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Since the early church, the epistle we call "The Epistle of James" has been disputed as to its authorship.

Then why was it included when the canon was being determined?

As far as Lutherans are concerned, the lack of certainty means we cannot accept it as a source for dogma.

How convenient. If you don't agree with something, just disregard it.

It is however, something we read in church for edification and it is in our Bibles.

How does James provide any edification for you, if it isn't God's direct Word?

 

[timothyu]

It is quite easy for those who hear of the Kingdom to fall away. But those who understand Jesus' Kingdom is a counter-culture to the world of man and sees our ways as the ones being backwards, understanding our ways of self lead to all the evils in our lives, will hardly rejoin that which is evil. Even the religion has moved away from the Kingdom in order to cover the fact the 'official' church rejoined the world of man itself 1700 years ago. Today, just as then, Christianity more often works with and supports State than reject it and it's backwards ways. Where does that leave the blind followers?

Works don't lead us away from the world of man to the Kingdom, Works are a visible showing of our rejection of the ideals of man for those of the Kingdom. The rebellion against works is most often by those immersed in the world of man and trying to have it both ways, drawing attention away from works as their works condemn their actions and highlight their hypocrisy towards the Kingdom of God..

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is quite easy for those who hear of the Kingdom to fall away. But those who understand Jesus' Kingdom is a counter-culture to the world of man and sees our ways as the ones being backwards, understanding our ways of self lead to all the evils in our lives, will hardly rejoin that which is evil.

Except you've missed what the Bible says about those who have believed; when faced with testings/temptations, they fell away. Luke 8:13 1 Tim 4:1 (depart the faith).

 

[paul becke]

Consider servitude. That does not mean obedience to a worldly master but to the will of God, for in servitude we serve the Kingdom, not the world of man.

Nope. In serving our fellow man, we serve God. Read Matthew 25. Not everyone who calls me, 'Lord ! Lord "!'

 

[paul becke]

Actually Romans 4 says we are justified by faith which means we are made right with God by faith. It doesn’t say we are saved by faith without works. Just because someone is made right with God doesn’t mean they can’t be made wrong with Him later. James 2:14 on the other hand is actually referring to salvation when he says “can that faith save him”. John 15:1-10 is pretty clear that anyone who doesn’t bear fruit is cut off from the vine (Christ) thrown away to wither and thrown into the fire. Jesus said this to His 11 faithful apostles.

'Bearing fruit' is a key phrase; the operative phrase.

 

[paul becke]

I've been believing this for years and so far I haven't apostasized. I see no reason to reject what I believe to be true.

And it was known back in Luther's day that the epistle of James was a book of dubious apostolicity. This is nothing new.

So, Luther knew better than the Church Fathers who, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, designated the canon of scripture. Did you know Luther was a very strong believer in the Virgin Mary's egregious status, as he did as a Catholic ? Or are you picking and choosing Luther's beliefs now ?

 

[timothyu]

Except you've missed what the Bible says about those who have believed; when faced with testings/temptations, they fell away. Luke 8:13 1 Tim 4:1 (depart the faith).

Because like many Christians they are still rooted in the way of man. Some even say Lord Lord while going hell bent into political strife

 

[paul becke]

Because like many Christians they are still rooted in the way of man. Some even say Lord Lord while going hell bent into political strife

Psalm 82.
God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked?Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the orphan;
maintain the right of the lowly and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”


5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk around in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 I say, “You are gods,
children of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, you shall die like mortals,
and fall like any prince.”a]">[a]

8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth;
for all the nations belong to you!

Sounds to me as if the Psalmist is 'getting hell-bent into political strife.....' What can 'the divine council' mean in the first line, if not the church leadership ?

You do not have the right to be complacent about the sufferings of Christ in the poor, least of all in the richest country in the world.

 

[timothyu]

You do not have the right to be complacent about the sufferings of Christ in the poor, least of all in the richest country in the world.

I don't live in China... but yes fighting oppression is indeed a good path. But siding in man's political arena means taking one side or the other of the oppressors. Jesus offered an alternative.

 

[GodsGrace101]

How do you reconcile the book of Romans and the Book of James?

Hey Aspie,,,
I don't see why any reconciling is necessary. All the writers give the same teachings.

Why is this thread under "Controversial Christian Theology"?

 

[paul becke]

I don't live in China... but yes fighting oppression is indeed a good path. But siding in man's political arena means taking one side or the other of the oppressors. Jesus offered an alternative.

So you think that the unfettered neoliberal capitalism that has condemned so many of your fellow-citizens to poverty, homelessness, food-banks and negligible medical treatment (because unaffordable) would be an acceptable response by Christians to the Holy Spirit's criticisms in that Psalm ?

 

[paul becke]

So you think that the unfettered neoliberal capitalism that has condemned so many of your fellow-citizens to poverty, homelessness, food-banks and negligible medical treatment (because unaffordable) would be an acceptable response by Christians to the Holy Spirit's criticisms in that Psalm ?

The Holy Spirit, through the Psalmist was not speaking to the every-day people, but to the religious leaders, demanding Christian, political involvement. Or, rather, lamenting it's absence.

In Matthew 25, Jesus promises there will be a reckoning. No sweet-talking, shilly-shallying, ifs or buts. Nevertheless, Jesus' actual demeanour towards the people suggests that many of their sins, today, especially in the US, are likely to be viewed compassionately by Jesus, since (in Europe too), for example, you can't even watch a TV film without seeing a couple (not married) 'going at it like knives'. The 'zeitgeist', the spirit of the age, is unabashedly pagan. But since people are scarcely aware that they are under such a damnable siege, they just fall away from whatever faith they had.

 

[timothyu]

would be an acceptable response by Christians

You can't change a system by partaking in it. We are to offer an option untraditional to man that Jesus taught, just as the ways of the Kingdom are untraditional to the ways of man.

 

[paul becke]

You can't change a system by partaking in it. We are to offer an option untraditional to man that Jesus taught, just as the ways of the Kingdom are untraditional to the ways of man.

There is nothing 'untraditional' about helping people in difficulty - efficiently, i.e. politically. The street-dogs did their stumbling fumbling best, licking Lazarus' sores, but we can do better than that. A few hours ago I watched a Rumble video-clip of a turkey, holding up traffic until about twenty of his charges (turkeys) had crossed the road. After the last one had crossed, he let the queue of traffic go on their way. I'm not kidding. It's awesome to watch.

He could have seen them across one at a time in theory but then the traffic might not have waited, and fortunately, he was politically 'savvy' enough to think big.

Turkey Halts Traffic on New Hampshire Road So Others Can Cross

 

[BNR32FAN]

'Bearing fruit' is a key phrase; the operative phrase.

I think it’s more about the heart than the actual actions. For example look at the examples given in James 2:15-16 and Matthew 25:42-43. Notice the similarities in the works. I don’t think these people will be condemned for their lack of good works but rather their lack of love and compassion for others. The works that are mentioned here are concerning love in my opinion and a lack of these indicates a lack of love for others. Jesus mentions the importance of love for others in John 15:12-14 right after explaining the necessity of bearing fruit. Of course we know love for others is one of the 2 most important commandments second only to loving and honoring God.

 

[timothyu]

Caring instead of being cared about.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I think it’s more about the heart than the actual actions. For example look at the examples given in James 2:15-16 and Matthew 25:42-43. Notice the similarities in the works. I don’t think these people will be condemned for their lack of good works but rather their lack of love and compassion for others. The works that are mentioned here are concerning love in my opinion and a lack of these indicates a lack of love for others. Jesus mentions the importance of love for others in John 15:12-14 right after explaining the necessity of bearing fruit. Of course we know love for others is one of the 2 most important commandments second only to loving and honoring God.

Hi B,,,,

But then, WHY are we to love?
Isn't it to do good deeds?

Isn't the whole idea that IF we love our neighbor, we will DO for our neighbor?

(hope I didn't misunderstand you)

 

[GodsGrace101]

Caring instead of being cared about.

If we lived as Jesus wished,,,in The Kingdom,,,we would both care for and be cared for.

It would work out well....

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hi B,,,,

But then, WHY are we to love?
Isn't it to do good deeds?

Isn't the whole idea that IF we love our neighbor, we will DO for our neighbor?

(hope I didn't misunderstand you)

That’s a really good question. I think in cases of loving those we know it’s more based on loving who they are as a person but in cases of loving people we don’t know I think love is based more on compassion and caring or pity on those who are less fortunate. Like when we see a cold or hungry homeless person we worry about the anguish they are going thru and have a desire to comfort them. Our focus is more on helping them more than our own personal gain so we give unselfishly not thinking about what we are depriving ourself knowing that God will provide what we need. When I help someone in need I think of Matthew 25:40 and I see the person as Jesus Himself asking me for help. Who can resist giving to Jesus? Now I know the person is not actually Jesus but instead one of His brethren but the way He words it in verse 40 “you did it to me” just makes me feel like I’m giving to Jesus.