Are we judging???

[SnowBear]

A caution, but it is omitted that ALL will be judged.

ScottishJohn asked the most pertinent question…why are you declaring this a caution rather than a command?



The biblical passage clearly tells people that THEY should not judge others. You bring up the Christian myth of a final or Godly judgment. There is significant difference between you personally judging the morals of another and your God doing so.

There will be those that are redeemed from that judgment and those that won't.

By implying that you have some idea about the outcome of this mythical judgment you are actually judging others which as noted is not something the bible thinks you should be doing.

A statement that non-believers are not subject to the Church's authority, no one is arguing that though some are ignorantly trying to accuse that is what is being attempted.

First it is a statement about judging and again your bible clearly states that you have no business judging anyone outside your particular church and even then it is questionable.



Second the imposition of your personal interoperation of morality onto society as a whole IS what is being attempted.

Thank you for doing me the favor of keeping it in context. Perhaps you didn't see that last part.

I certainly did see the last part…did you?

Judgment as in the permanent condemnation of people, I do not deny that. That is also why I am guiltless in saying that you are free to marry as you wish.

I have never requested or needed you ‘permission’ thanks all the same.

I was married ten years ago and remain so. The fight we are engaged in is legal recognition of our marriage.

 

[ScottishJohn]

This explains much.
Based on what you have said over time I see where you presume, because you call yourself a Christian, that you therefore have authority to judge over all other Christians.
Thank you for clarifying that you possess the same authority of judgment equal to God, but only limited to judging Christians.
Don't look now, but I think I see why you have so much difficulty understanding what has been said.

I never said my judgement was equal to Gods. I said that judgement is judgement regardless of the judge. Ours judgement is flawed while Gods is perfect, but the act if not the outcome follows the same route. Your splitting of the word judge into two artificial fragments makes no sense. You still have not answered my question concerning where your understanding of the word judgement comes from.

Do you disagree that Christians are called to judge each other? If they are not then how are we to know when a brother has sinned against another. If we are not even to judge each other then where does the authority claimed to judge non Christians come from?

I have no difficulty understanding what has been said. The only problem is that it is not biblical and therefore I disagree with it.

If you remove the meaning from the word judge then of course you can behave as you like towards non Christians.

Perhaps you could answer some of the other points raised.

 

[Fineous_Reese]

Second the imposition of your personal interoperation of morality onto society as a whole IS what is being attempted.

I was married ten years ago and remain so. The fight we are engaged in is legal recognition of our marriage.

sounds like you're doing the same thing, attempting to impose your personal interpretation of morality onto society as a whole.

 

[Fineous_Reese]

I never said my judgement was equal to Gods. I said that judgement is judgement regardless of the judge. Ours judgement is flawed while Gods is perfect, but the act if not the outcome follows the same route. Your splitting of the word judge into two artificial fragments makes no sense. You still have not answered my question concerning where your understanding of the word judgement comes from.

Do you disagree that Christians are called to judge each other? If they are not then how are we to know when a brother has sinned against another. If we are not even to judge each other then where does the authority claimed to judge non Christians come from?

I have no difficulty understanding what has been said. The only problem is that it is not biblical and therefore I disagree with it.

If you remove the meaning from the word judge then of course you can behave as you like towards non Christians.

Perhaps you could answer some of the other points raised.

sounds like a lot of semantics going on. most of the usage of the word 'judging' seems negative here but that's not the only way judgements fall. if Christians can't judge non-christians then we can't even cheer sports teams that have non-christians on them else we'll be judging (positively in this case) their actions and their persons. is this what is being stated here?

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I don't see how one can NOT see the obvious error and contradiction in their own words when it is so easily laid out before them. Notice the contradiction:

I never said my judgement was equal to Gods.

Directly contradicts:

I said that judgement is judgement regardless of the judge.

 

[ScottishJohn]

I don't see how one can NOT see the obvious error and contradiction in their own words when it is so easily laid out before them. Notice the contradiction:
Directly contradicts:

Let me explain:

I play the guitar.

Eric Clapton plays guitar.

We both play guitar.

The action is the same.

The outcome is not equal.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Do you disagree that Christians are called to judge each other? If they are not then how are we to know when a brother has sinned against another. If we are not even to judge each other then where does the authority claimed to judge non Christians come from?

I do not disagree, but that too has it's boundaries and accountabilities. You should look up those guidelines - do deacons/elders and discerning things with more than one person's opinion ring a bell? I had mentioned it before about numbers of believers resolving things, but it was summarily dismissed like many others.
This is all pointless anyway, due to the fact that you have stated that you are not promoting same gender marriage and not accusing other Christians of something, but I am still bewildered to what, if not that, you are saying.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Let me explain:

I play the guitar.

Eric Clapton plays guitar.

We both play guitar.

The action is the same.

The outcome is not equal.

You should back that up if you wish to make it more than opinion.
I see some truth in it but it is far from spiritual truth and far from absolute Truth; to which, the flaw in your definition of judging makes flaws effecting other scriptures (a little yeast effects the rest):
Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be [ Or have been] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be [ Or have been] loosed in heaven.”

Matthew 18:18
“I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be [ Or have been] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be [ Or have been] loosed in heaven.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

ScottishJohn asked the most pertinent question…why are you declaring this a caution rather than a command?



The biblical passage clearly tells people that THEY should not judge others. You bring up the Christian myth of a final or Godly judgment. There is significant difference between you personally judging the morals of another and your God doing so.





By implying that you have some idea about the outcome of this mythical judgment you are actually judging others which as noted is not something the bible thinks you should be doing.



First it is a statement about judging and again your bible clearly states that you have no business judging anyone outside your particular church and even then it is questionable.



Second the imposition of your personal interoperation of morality onto society as a whole IS what is being attempted.





I certainly did see the last part…did you?


I have never requested or needed you ‘permission’ thanks all the same.

I was married ten years ago and remain so. The fight we are engaged in is legal recognition of our marriage.

When you render the authority of it as not applicable to you with terms such as 'myth', then you render an answer due the question as also not applicable.
IOW - your request for investing time to answer is ignored.

 

[SnowBear]

sounds like you're doing the same thing, attempting to impose your personal interpretation of morality onto society as a whole.

Why do you think equal rights have a moral component?



Are you suggesting it is immoral for all citizens to have equal rights?

 

[SnowBear]

When you render the authority of it as not applicable to you with terms such as 'myth', then you render an answer due the question as also not applicable.
IOW - your request for investing time to answer is ignored.

So you are saying that you can’t defend your position?

 

[ScottishJohn]

Matthew 7:1-2
Why a caution and not a command? Who says? Are you suggesting that the ommission is an oversight?

1 Corinthians 5:12
A statement that non believers are not to be judged by the Church. Their actions are of no concern to those within the Church. God will judge those outside the Church. If applying Christian rules to a secular authority is not seeking to apply Church rules to non believers then what is it?

Matthew 7:3-5
Do we ever remove the plank from our eye? Is it possible to reach perfection?

Where does your interpretation of the word judgement come from?

How about before I answer any more of your questions you do me the courtesy of answering some of mine?

 

[ChristianCenturion]

So you are saying that you can’t defend your position?

So are you saying that you can't read?

 

[ChristianCenturion]

How about before I answer any more of your questions you do me the courtesy of answering some of mine?

No thanks.
The use of creating tributary diversions to busy an opposing view is not one that I will practice entertaining very often. As I have stated before, I have tried accommodate the questioning, but it did not show to be productive. Now it only seems to be an increased attempt and I do not plan on indulging it - I plan on keeping it simple.
I don't have some innate need (maybe I do have the desire though) to have you understand, if you wish to make claims against Christians, I will defend.

 

[SnowBear]

So are you saying that you can't read?

Apparently you can’t defend your position.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Apparently you can’t defend your position.

Since you like asserting negatives, then you must like trying to prove negatives.
Evidence please.

 

[Blessed2003]

I have a divided heart when it comes to social political issues. Of course I believe that homosexuality and abortion are wrong, but legislating them is when I begin to have a problem. When it comes to homosexuality I want to support those who are against it because I believe that it is wrong. And even worse is abortion, because abortion kills innoncent people who will never get a chance to life. But the reason I am divided is because Paul said to expel the immortal brother within you. Paul said that God will judge the outsiders. So now I feel like by holding non-christians to God's Law might be harsh and judging them, we hold them to a law they dont even believe in. We might be pushing them away from christianity by simply pointing a finger at them and declaring how immoral they are. But to do nothing would be to let our society go to ruin.
So what do you believe is right to do??? Please also use scripture to help in your arguments.

Hey Trizm.

I do think you have brought up a good point, too bad I missed most of it, lol. I apologize, I didn't read any thing except the first post, well, that's not entirely true. I read the last page but it seemed like the topic has changed, so I am going to briefly comment on your original topic of interest.

I like the way you said it, because that is how I feel, but have felt condemned because of it, sort of divided, like you said. I don't think we shoud say something is ok if we don't believe it is, but at the same time (which is where my division came from) we can not expect those outside of the Household to adhere to the Kings code of conduct, so to speak. I stay completely out of politics as a result. I don't want to condone behaviour that is imo not Christ like, but I don't want to condemn someone based on my own set of moral conduct. I would love for the Lord to just plainly say what we should do, this would be much simpler. For now how I handle it is to state my opinion of the act, whether wrong or right, and then I listen to the case presented and weight it based on all of that. In homosexuality I can not tell anyone else how to live, or how they will be judged, as that is not my place, but I will never exclude anyone who practices this from being loved by me. I have to be careful so that no lines are blurred, and I am. I am saying this as in my relation to the world, not the bretheren. We know that we are told in scripture not to associate with such a one as this, and mainly because there has to be a seperatness between God's People and the people of the world, I mean, if 'they' can not be told apart then there is something missing. However, we are not ever told to hate them, but we are told to love them. Even the brother, if he should be put away, we are told to love. That is what is missing, imo. Love. If we read I Cor. we see that without Love all is useless, rules, tongues, gifts, religion, etc. Love is Key.
As far as abortion, now that issue is really tricky. I believe without a shadow of a doubt that is a serious no no. I believe that the child is alive from conception on. I would not condone abortion, but in our society if we didn't have legal abortions wouldn't people be doing some pretty dangerous things to eliminate pregnancies, and what about when the life of the Mother is in danger. Personally, I'd leave it up to the Creator, but is it fair to say that to someone who doesn't have a relationship with the Creator, or even believe He exists? I am not sure. Still divided huh? I guess that is why I stay far away from this, I don't want any blood on my hands.

Sorry for the long nothingness post...he he....

Blessings,
B

 

[ScottishJohn]

No thanks.
The use of creating tributary diversions to busy an opposing view is not one that I will practice entertaining very often. As I have stated before, I have tried accommodate the questioning, but it did not show to be productive. Now it only seems to be an increased attempt and I do not plan on indulging it - I plan on keeping it simple.
I don't have some innate need (maybe I do have the desire though) to have you understand, if you wish to make claims against Christians, I will defend.

Tributary diversions?! If you are going to make statements that you have no intention of backing up how do you expect to defend anything? You keep on telling me that I am voicing only opinion, and then voice opinion right back at me. If your arguments have been 'unproductive' then perhaps they are not very good arguments?

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Tributary diversions?! If you are going to make statements that you have no intention of backing up how do you expect to defend anything? You keep on telling me that I am voicing only opinion, and then voice opinion right back at me. If your arguments have been 'unproductive' then perhaps they are not very good arguments?

1) For someone that claims that they aren't accusing Christians of something, you seem preoccupied with me 'defending' something.
Let me spell it out once again. Your assertion that Christian should not fight against the schemes of the wicked fails. Your assertion that you are not promoting same gender marriage in light of you stating that the Christian should give the same incentives and recognition by the government fails. Your premise that Christians are judging the non-believers by not succumbing to their demands fails. Your repeated statements that something has or hasn't been proven fails.
2) My faithfulness in serving the Lord is not dependant on someone else's ignorance, ability to understand, refusal of facts, desire to resolve, motivations, etc.
3) Your attempt to claim judgment over the multitude of the Church here or in general, fails. You are free to make such claims (thanks to God), but your authority fails.

What more can be said - that's a pretty strong defense.

 

[ScottishJohn]

1) For someone that claims that they aren't accussing Christians of something, you seem preoccupied with me 'defending' something.
2) My faithfulness in serving the Lord is not dependant on someone else's ignorance, ability to understand, refusal of facts, desire to resolve, motivations, etc.

Are you judging?

Defend was your word (and your preoccupation) not mine. I agree with you about faithfulness, however, ones effectiveness in any argument is dependant on the ability to make ones point.

Are you judging me?