Are we judging???

[Trizm]

I have a divided heart when it comes to social political issues. Of course I believe that homosexuality and abortion are wrong, but legislating them is when I begin to have a problem. When it comes to homosexuality I want to support those who are against it because I believe that it is wrong. And even worse is abortion, because abortion kills innoncent people who will never get a chance to life. But the reason I am divided is because Paul said to expel the immortal brother within you. Paul said that God will judge the outsiders. So now I feel like by holding non-christians to God's Law might be harsh and judging them, we hold them to a law they dont even believe in. We might be pushing them away from christianity by simply pointing a finger at them and declaring how immoral they are. But to do nothing would be to let our society go to ruin.
So what do you believe is right to do??? Please also use scripture to help in your arguments.

 

[Trizm]

Oh yeah one more thing. I also thought about one instance where legislating morality didnt work. I cant remember what amendment this was, but it was the one where we banned alcohol. Being a christian this doesnt affect me much because if everyone stopped drinking, I would be fine. But most of the country rejected the morality. I remember that God gave people free will to go against him also. And it is their god-given right. I may show them christianity, good and all our beliefs. But it is ultimately up to them to choose God so if they choose to not follow God, I dont think I have the right to force him to follow God, do I???

 

[ScottishJohn]

Romans 1:18 to Romans 2. I think this is pretty clear. God reserves the right to judge. Thos who choose to live to their own laws and ignore Gods law may do so, and that is fine, but they will face he consequences. Another important point in this passage is that 'even the Gentile Knows the law' in other words deep down people know what is right and wrong according to Gods law, and if they choose to ignore this again that is their right.

Matthew 10:14
Mark 6:11
Luke 9:5
Acts 13:51

If people do not want to hear Gods word wipe the dust from your feet. Again I think this is clear. You let people know what God commands and leave it up to them. A forced obediance is no obediance at all. Homosexuality and abortion have all been illegal but have still been practiced in secret. As was drinking during prohibition.

To ban ungodly practices merely serves to stir up hatred against the church. We have no right to enforce our views on those who do not follow them. Think of Jesus and the samaritan woman at the well. He did not condemn her - he made friends with her. He did not dilute his beleifs yet she felt her sin and knew he was right. We as christians cannot convert one soul unless God is working within us. We will not do any good by encouraging vast quantities of people to hate us and our God through enthusiastically ignoring what examples and commandments God has set us.

 

[Fineous_Reese]

on the flip side, should followers of Jesus support legislation to approve of practices He has called wrong?

 

[ScottishJohn]

on the flip side, should followers of Jesus support legislation to approve of practices He has called wrong?

Should we stand in the way of those who want to do wrong if God does not? Is it any of our business if gay people wish to get married in a civil ceremony?

Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

If this is what they want, and God has handed it over to them who are we to disagree?

I admit abortion is NOT so cut and dried, but again it has been taking place for centuries and will continue to do so whether legal or not. So how do we show Christs love - we educate young people about the realities of teenage pregnancies, we offer help to those who need help as an alternative to abortion. We help those who have undergone abortion by offering counciling.

Attacking those who perform abortions and who have abortions is just wrong.

 

[ShawnaAnn]

I have a divided heart when it comes to social political issues. Of course I believe that homosexuality and abortion are wrong, but legislating them is when I begin to have a problem. When it comes to homosexuality I want to support those who are against it because I believe that it is wrong. And even worse is abortion, because abortion kills innoncent people who will never get a chance to life. But the reason I am divided is because Paul said to expel the immortal brother within you. Paul said that God will judge the outsiders. So now I feel like by holding non-christians to God's Law might be harsh and judging them, we hold them to a law they dont even believe in. We might be pushing them away from christianity by simply pointing a finger at them and declaring how immoral they are. But to do nothing would be to let our society go to ruin.
So what do you believe is right to do??? Please also use scripture to help in your arguments.

No, you are thinking about it the wrong way.
Both of these are public issues that people may or may not have a problem with. Weather they affect you or not is up to you. Nobody is telling you to think weather abortion is right or wrong, nobody is telling you to oppress gays. Certainly not the Bible.

The bible says nothing about abortion, that is all merely speculation. And as far as the gay thing goes... The bible says a LOT of dumb things that should not be held under public standards... For example, the Bible actually specifically says to not approach any women who is on her cycle. Wow, imagine that?

You shouldn't be able to pick and choose what you want to legislate to win votes. But that is 'kosher' in today's society.

 

[mhess13]

Oh yeah one more thing. I also thought about one instance where legislating morality didnt work. I cant remember what amendment this was, but it was the one where we banned alcohol. Being a christian this doesnt affect me much because if everyone stopped drinking, I would be fine. But most of the country rejected the morality. I remember that God gave people free will to go against him also. And it is their god-given right. I may show them christianity, good and all our beliefs. But it is ultimately up to them to choose God so if they choose to not follow God, I dont think I have the right to force him to follow God, do I???

We legislate morality everyday. Every law is a legislation of morality. You cannot walk down a public street if you are drunk or you get arrested. Alcohol is legal, but we don't want drunk people walking down main street. This is legislating morality. I can't walk down the street naked. I'm not hurting anyone, but yet there are laws against doing this. I'm not allowed to abuse or hurt animals. Some one made a moral judgment to make animal cruelty a crime.
etc, etc, etc

 

[ScottishJohn]

We legislate morality everyday. Every law is a legislation of morality. You cannot walk down a public street if you are drunk or you get arrested. Alcohol is legal, but we don't want drunk people walking down main street. This is legislating morality. I can't walk down the street naked. I'm not hurting anyone, but yet there are laws against doing this. I'm not allowed to abuse or hurt animals. Some one made a moral judgment to make animal cruelty a crime.
etc, etc, etc

Not someone, but a nation. The Nation chose all of those rules. If the nation choose to outlaw abortion or not allow Gay marriage then that is fine. If that is what the majority choose. But they have to choose that for their own reasons the bible does not instruct them to do so. In all likeliehood if they choose to go down this road it would follow the path of prohibition when they realised that it wasn't helpful or useful.

 

[ade32]

Probably legislating religious morality(legislating morality on religious grounds) is where you get into trouble.

 

[ade32]

Really the gay marriage thing is about bestowing the same legal rights and privelidges on gay couples as are enjoyed by heterosexual couples not forming any type of union blessed by God. If you think homosexuality is a sin, they don't be a practicing homosexual, simple as that. Its in the hands of the person, not of anyone else.

 

[Fineous_Reese]

Should we stand in the way of those who want to do wrong if God does not?

it is not wise to confuse God's long suffering with the concept that He won't do something about those that do what He says is wrong.

Is it any of our business if gay people wish to get married in a civil ceremony?

sure, it's a civil ceremony, i'm part of the civilization, it's our business. i'm not going to stop them from living together but don't call it marriage or give it the legal protection the state gives married folks because it's not marriage.

Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

If this is what they want, and God has handed it over to them who are we to disagree?

i'm not disagreeing, as i said, let them be. they can live together and do everything that regular single folks can do.

I admit abortion is NOT so cut and dried, but again it has been taking place for centuries and will continue to do so whether legal or not. So how do we show Christs love - we educate young people about the realities of teenage pregnancies, we offer help to those who need help as an alternative to abortion. We help those who have undergone abortion by offering counciling.

Attacking those who perform abortions and who have abortions is just wrong.

there are a lot of things, like slavery and murder, that have also been taking place for centuries and will continue to do so whether legal or not. i won't comment further as it's going beyond the scope of politics and as such beyond the rules of this forum.

 

[Vylo]

sure, it's a civil ceremony, i'm part of the civilization, it's our business. i'm not going to stop them from living together but don't call it marriage or give it the legal protection the state gives married folks because it's not marriage.

How is it not marriage?

 

[ScottishJohn]

it is not wise to confuse God's long suffering with the concept that He won't do something about those that do what He says is wrong.

Who said he wouldn't? When judgement day comes we will all be judged. I'm just saying that he didn't call or empower us to do this job for him - in fact he specifiaclly told us that this was HIS call and NOT ours so where is the biblical basis for butting in?

sure, it's a civil ceremony, i'm part of the civilization, it's our business. i'm not going to stop them from living together but don't call it marriage or give it the legal protection the state gives married folks because it's not marriage.

Do unto others: by this argument you would be ready to accept an outlawing of heterosexual marriage if civilization called for it? Or a repealing of those benefits permitted to married folks?

i'm not disagreeing, as i said, let them be. they can live together and do everything that regular single folks can do.

They are not single, why discriminate against them what have you to lose? You have lots to gain by letting them get on with their lives the way they choose to live.

Can you give me a biblical basis for your position?

 

[Jarfice]

As far as marriage, there should not be civil marriage at all. As far as "benefits," or insurance, every person, single or not, should be able to name any other person as recipient of such benefits and protections, whether it's a gay man naming his male lover, a straight man naming his wife, a straight woman naming her female friend, or whatever.

Civil Marriage only breeds acceptance of Divorce. Marriage is a church issue, right?

Let's say a young, impressionable Anglican couple gets married in their church. They also have the choice of getting married by the State, civilly, as well. If they do, then for legal reasons involving property, they are allowed to get a "divorce." As long as there is civil marriage, there will and must be civil divorce, because it is necessary to protect individual's property. Now, once they've gotten a divorce, their church will allow them to remarry someone else, even though they never disolved the union formed by the church itself. Now, because of state-sponsored civil marriage, the mainlin protestant church is embracing an act that is utterly sinful, according to Jesus himself.

Matthew 19:9 - And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery."

So, I think it's obvious that civil marriage is an offensive and sacriligious thing at this point, regardless of gay marriage, and should be abolished as unconstitutional (violating seperation of Church and State, interfering with the Church.)

As far as other issues, like "sex in the media" or prostitution, or drug laws, those are very clearly examples of innapropriate government interference into personal behavior, unconstitutional, and incosistant with the message of the Bible, which tells us that, among other things, we should "remove the beam from our own eye before removing the mote from our neighbor's eye."

Obeying God, and, for that matter, Disobeying God, is a personal decision. Being unable to get laid is not the same thing as practicing chastity, and not commiting sodomy because the law says you can't isn't the same thing as respecting the laws of God.

And on the subject of Drugs, from the Book of Mark, Chapter 7;

"Hear me, all of you, and understand: 15 there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him." 16 17 18 And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20 And he said, "What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man."

 

[the Colonel]

This discussion is more appropriate for Philosophy and Morality, Liberal Theology, or General Theology.

Closed for staff review to possibly move this thread to the appropriate forum.

 

[the Colonel]

Thread moved to appropriate forum. Sorry for the delay.

 

[ScottishJohn]

As far as marriage, there should not be civil marriage at all. As far as "benefits," or insurance, every person, single or not, should be able to name any other person as recipient of such benefits and protections, whether it's a gay man naming his male lover, a straight man naming his wife, a straight woman naming her female friend, or whatever.

I think I would probably agree with you on this and if civil marriage did not exist the argument for Gay marriage would be weaker - but this is not the case in our societies, and will never now be the case. We shoudl have protested over civil marriage when it was introduced - no idea when that was. As it is I don't think we have a leg to stand on over gay marriage.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I think I would probably agree with you on this and if civil marriage did not exist the argument for Gay marriage would be weaker - but this is not the case in our societies, and will never now be the case. We shoudl have protested over civil marriage when it was introduced - no idea when that was. As it is I don't think we have a leg to stand on over gay marriage.

You might not, but I as a Christian, as a father, as a citizen do.

 

[ScottishJohn]

Can I ask why you disagree Centurion?

 

[Zaac]

I have a divided heart when it comes to social political issues. Of course I believe that homosexuality and abortion are wrong, but legislating them is when I begin to have a problem. When it comes to homosexuality I want to support those who are against it because I believe that it is wrong. And even worse is abortion, because abortion kills innoncent people who will never get a chance to life. But the reason I am divided is because Paul said to expel the immortal brother within you. Paul said that God will judge the outsiders. So now I feel like by holding non-christians to God's Law might be harsh and judging them, we hold them to a law they dont even believe in. We might be pushing them away from christianity by simply pointing a finger at them and declaring how immoral they are. But to do nothing would be to let our society go to ruin.
So what do you believe is right to do??? Please also use scripture to help in your arguments.

Let's go right to God's Word. You have to let the evil doer know in love that he is doing wrong. Ezekiel 3:18-21 18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."

You have to let people know when they are doing wrong. It may not be the politically correct thing to do, but you have to let them know. Should we try to legislate morality? Personally, I don't see a need to. God gave us His commandments, and outside of those and the rest of His Word, there should really be no need to restrict people's behaviors.

God has given every man the right to choose. Should we try to legislate away those rights? Nope because legislating those rights does not change someone's heart.

I almost feel like laws need to be passed to say that your punishment will be XYZ if you do ABC, instead of you can't do ABC. You have it on God's authority that you can do ABC, but that ABC may not be beneficial.12“Everything is permissible for me”–but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”–but I will not be mastered by anything. 1 Corinthians 6:12

In addition, in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, we are told:16All Scripture is Godbreathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

You're supposed to use God's Word to teach and correct, but it must be done in love.

To the nonBeliever none of this stuff means anything until they recognize their need for the Savior, Jesus Christ. That's why Christians are called to point it out.

If no one ever tells you that your behavior is wrong, why would you see a need to change it? Some folks don't even see a need after you tell them. But don't let that prevent you from telling them. We are called to obedience even when the world does not think we should be.