Are we following Ephesians 4:11?

[Ian Ferrin]

I haven't posted in quite some time and would appreciate links to any threads where this has already been discussed.

Are we following Ephesians 4:11?

The gifts listed are 1) Apostle, 2) Prophet, 3) Evangelist, 4) Pastor, 5) Teacher. I believe most of the power and money in the modern church has been placed in the hands of Pastors. I believe this is not what God intended. Pastors are #4 on the list. Sure, many Pastors evangelize to some degree. But it is often not their focus IMO. Pastors are generally nurturing. That is their gifting. They are fervent about encouraging prayer, Bible reading and fellowship, as they should be. But, for a large part, many Pastors do not inculcate the outward focus of the first 3 gifts. The first 3 gifts are outward focused. IMO the pastoral gift is inward focused.

My big question is why do Pastor's control most of the power, direction and money in the Church? Can revival happen with the Church so inwardly focused? I believe there is a huge tradition of Pastor's being in charge of the the church's purse strings. But is this what God intended? Is revival possible with Pastors, number 4 on the list, in charge? Is the church too inward focused? And if so, how do we change this?

 

[d taylor]

-​

The visible church is on a path into the tribulation, what will happen to it then ???

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I haven't posted in quite some time and would appreciate links to any threads where this has already been discussed.

Are we following Ephesians 4:11?

The gifts listed are 1) Apostle, 2) Prophet, 3) Evangelist, 4) Pastor, 5) Teacher. I believe most of the power and money in the modern church has been placed in the hands of Pastors. I believe this is not what God intended. Pastors are #4 on the list. Sure, many Pastors evangelize to some degree. But it is often not their focus IMO. Pastors are generally nurturing. That is their gifting. They are fervent about encouraging prayer, Bible reading and fellowship, as they should be. But, for a large part, many Pastors do not inculcate the outward focus of the first 3 gifts. The first 3 gifts are outward focused. IMO the pastoral gift is inward focused.

My big question is why do Pastor's control most of the power, direction and money in the Church? Can revival happen with the Church so inwardly focused? I believe there is a huge tradition of Pastor's being in charge of the the church's purse strings. But is this what God intended? Is revival possible with Pastors, number 4 on the list, in charge? Is the church too inward focused? And if so, how do we change this?

My understanding....
The Apostels and Prophets are the Foundation of the Gospel with Jesus Christ of Nazareth as the Chief Cornerstone. Then we have the structure of a congregation which are Bishops, Pastors and Elders. Then we have those who are "planters" Evangelists and missionaries ( travelers). All of them have the capacity to teach as well as those who are gifted outside these groups.
As far as money, if it's a moral congregation, there will be accountability. Elders are responsible to hire and fire Pastors so the responsibility sits with them.
Blessings

 

[Ian Ferrin]

d-taylor - I agree one of the ways this will be resolved is a diaspora. If the church will not take a better outward focus, God may say "OK, go forth. I'm going to push you out of your complacency thru persecution and assault from the secular authorities."

Maria - I believe missionaries are the closest thing we have to Apostles, although they are not recognized as such. Evangelists are #3 on the list. Why don't evangelists and missionaries control more of the power and money? You seem to be saying missionaries and Evangelists SHOULD be under Pastors? Is that what you're saying?

Why do local churches with their inward/nurturing focus control the vast majority of the money? I believe most congregations are moral. But still, most church budgets go to supporting the pastor(s) and the physical local churches.

Peace - Ian

 

[Maria Billingsley]

d-taylor - I agree one of the ways this will be resolved is a diaspora. If the church will not take a better outward focus, God may say "OK, go forth. I'm going to push you out of your complacency thru persecution and assault from the secular authorities."

Maria - I believe missionaries are the closest thing we have to Apostles, although they are not recognized as such. Evangelists are #3 on the list. Why don't evangelists and missionaries control more of the power and money? You seem to be saying missionaries and Evangelists SHOULD be under Pastors? Is that what you're saying?

Why do local churches with their inward/nurturing focus control the vast majority of the money? I believe most congregations are moral. But still, most church budgets go to supporting the pastor(s) and the physical local churches.

Peace - Ian

First no one should be "under" anyone. It is accountability. I did not say Evangelists and missionaries are under Pastors, I said these are " planters" , people who plant the seed and move on. Power and money are never mentioned in scripture as tools for spreading the Gospel. So as you can see the modern way is not exactly the way Jesus Christ of Nazareth wanted it to be. Blessings.

 

[Ian Ferrin]

Maria said "I did not say Evangelists and missionaries are under Pastors, I said these are " planters" , people who plant the seed and move on."

Thanks Maria. I know you didn't say that. I said it. Money is certainly a biblical tool for spreading the Gospel. Tithing (most churches teach tithing), 'the workman is worthy of their hire', and people selling all they had and giving it to the nascent Church in Acts are all Biblical examples of money being used to spread the Gospel.

Missionaries are certainly not just 'planters'. Many live their lives with with their disciples for many many years. And yet they're by and large required to raise their own support. I don't think that's right.

My main point is that the modern church is inwardly focused with most power and authority given to #4 on the list. Pastors. Do you disagree?

 

[1Tonne]

When reading Ephesian 4:11 we also need to include verse 12.
Ephesians 4:11-12 "And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ;"

My understanding is that all of these gifts are inward gifts. They are all for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry. So, for instance, we are all to evangelise, but someone with the gift of evangelism will not only share the Gospel with non-believers but he will also teach others within the church to do so. So, my understanding is that a person with the gift of evangelism is someone who teaches the saints to do the same. Then once the saints know how to share the Good News, they themselves then go out. So, the gifts are inwardly focused so that we can be outwardly focused.

In saying this, it can be frustrating when you have a person with a pastoral gifting try to teach evangelism. I have seen a pastor preach a sermon on evangelism and he said that going into the streets and parks to preach is no longer what we should do. He said it no longer works. Instead, in this new age, we should make friends and then when the time feels right, we may be able to then share the Gospel. So now, most people in the church live their lives as they normally would have, and they class that any association with a non-believer is witnessing.

 

[Ceallaigh]

In my experience senior pastors are only in charge so to speak through the other pastors and elders. I've known of senior pastors who have been discharged and replaced for various reasons. I suppose someone who starts their own church has more autonomy. But I think most have an infrastructure. And a lot of pastors delegate rather than try taking care of everything. A lot of times church finances are handled by a couple of elders rather than by the senior pastor.

 

[Ian Ferrin]

the gifts are inwardly focused so that we can be outwardly focused.

I think, Apostle, Prophet and Evangelist have always been, primarily outward focused. I've already said I think missionaries are the closest we have to Apostles. Re. Prophets, I think a few folks may have the gifts and the calling to be Prophets, even if they aren't recognized as such. A couple of folks who I think may be prophetically inclined are Jason Whitlock and Jordan Peterson. Both speak to combined Christian and Secular audiences. Whitlock is probably more 'in your face' about Christ. Peterson is more refined but both men are speaking incredibly uncomfortable Christian truths, from a Christian POV, and are reaching into the world.

I don't buy that the Church is justified in being inward focused. What you seem to be describing is basic discipleship which SHOULD be happening in every Church.

Yes, most Churches have elders or a governing board, but what board of elders, anywhere, sets the vision for that local church? Isn't is almost always the Pastor setting the vision? The elders will fire a Pastor if they commit sexual or financial sin, but isn't that usually the extent of their vision/direction oversight? Aren't Pastors usually given broad leeway in running and leading their Churches?

#4, Pastors, control the power, authority, vision and money. Pastors rule the roost. I don't think this is right!

 

[Ian Ferrin]

In my experience senior pastors are only in charge so to speak through the other pastors and elders. I've known of senior pastors who have been discharged and replaced for various reasons. I suppose someone who starts their own church has more autonomy. But I think most have an infrastructure. And a lot of pastors delegate rather than try taking care of everything. A lot of times church finances are handled by a couple of elders rather than by the senior pastor.

I totally agree with everything you say MMXX. But I think you may be agreeing with the basic premise of my original post? Your post seems to understand that pastors are the head of the modern organized church? You seem to say that Pastors are often subject to an existing status quo? I haven't been involved in any big churches, and I'm sure you're you're probably right re. big churches. In all the small churches I've attended, the Pastors ruled the roost. The largest church we ever attended had six Pastors. And in that Church, the head pastor absolutely controlled the vision and priorities of the church.

All the churches I've ever attended were largely inwardly focused. The sermons about prayer, bible study and fellowship were innumerable. I'm absolutely not attacking prayer, bible study and fellowship. These are essential. But they're inwardly focused. They're nurturing. And Pastors are nurturing. That's their gifting. And IMO a nurturing focus should not be guiding the church...

I think the Apostle, Prophet and especially Evangelist roles still exist to some degree. But, IMO, they are subjugated by the Pastoral ministry which, IMO, controls the power, money, authority, and direction of the Church. As a Church, I believe we've strayed. What we have is not mandated by God. It's, I'm sorry to say, plain and simple, how the Church has evolved. Yes... evolved. The formal structures of the modern church are rooted in tradition and not in the Bible.

I think, in order for the Church to thrive and revival to happen, we must figure out how to break out of our Pastor dominated culture!

In Christ, Ian

 

[Ceallaigh]

I totally agree with everything you say MMXX. But I think you may be agreeing with the basic premise of my original post? Your post seems to understand that pastors are the head of the modern organized church? You seem to say that Pastors are often subject to an existing status quo? I haven't been involved in any big churches, and I'm sure you're you're probably right re. big churches. In all the small churches I've attended, the Pastors ruled the roost. The largest church we ever attended had six Pastors. And in that Church, the head pastor absolutely controlled the vision and priorities of the church.

All the churches I've ever attended were largely inwardly focused. The sermons about prayer, bible study and fellowship were innumerable. I'm absolutely not attacking prayer, bible study and fellowship. These are essential. But they're inwardly focused. They're nurturing. And Pastors are nurturing. That's their gifting. And IMO a nurturing focus should not be guiding the church...

I think the Apostle, Prophet and especially Evangelist roles still exist to some degree. But, IMO, they are subjugated by the Pastoral ministry which, IMO, controls the power, money, authority, and direction of the Church. As a Church, I believe we've strayed. What we have is not mandated by God. It's, I'm sorry to say, plain and simple, how the Church has evolved. Yes... evolved. The formal structures of the modern church are rooted in tradition and not in the Bible.

I think, in order for the Church to thrive and revival to happen, we must figure out how to break out of our Pastor dominated culture!

In Christ, Ian

There's one thing that comes to mind after having read that. And that is, for most people church takes place once a week for about 90 minutes. So when it comes to gifts, what are people doing with them all of the rest of the time they're not in church?

 

[1Tonne]

So when it comes to gifts, what are people doing with them all of the rest of the time they're not in church?

Well, most people who may have the gift of evangelism, don't even know they have it. They may not even have the skills to evangelise yet.
First a person needs to be trained and then once they go out and put it into practice, then they may know.
I am no great evangelist though I go into the parks regularly and tell people the Good News. Unfortunately, I have not seen one person come to Christ through doing this, but many times I have seen a light flick on in the person where they finally understand that Jesus died for our sins (I love seeing this). Even though I have not seen a major conversion in a person, I still think I have the gift of evangelism. That is, I want to encourage others within the church, and I want to train them to share the Gospel. The only issue I have is that my pastor will not allow it because he believes we are living in a time of friendship evangelism. So, pastors can rule the roost and they can suppress certain gifts.
In my church, we have about 150 people. There are leaders within the church, but the pastor seems to be able to override them if he wants to. He started the church and so he is the one who directs it.

NOTE: Even though I may not be able to teach evangelism in the church I go to, I recently had another pastor hint that I may be able to do a sermon at his church and maybe take a bible study. So, I am just waiting for the go ahead. That will be exciting

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I haven't posted in quite some time and would appreciate links to any threads where this has already been discussed.

Are we following Ephesians 4:11?

The gifts listed are 1) Apostle, 2) Prophet, 3) Evangelist, 4) Pastor, 5) Teacher. I believe most of the power and money in the modern church has been placed in the hands of Pastors. I believe this is not what God intended. Pastors are #4 on the list. Sure, many Pastors evangelize to some degree. But it is often not their focus IMO. Pastors are generally nurturing. That is their gifting. They are fervent about encouraging prayer, Bible reading and fellowship, as they should be. But, for a large part, many Pastors do not inculcate the outward focus of the first 3 gifts. The first 3 gifts are outward focused. IMO the pastoral gift is inward focused.

My big question is why do Pastor's control most of the power, direction and money in the Church? Can revival happen with the Church so inwardly focused? I believe there is a huge tradition of Pastor's being in charge of the the church's purse strings. But is this what God intended? Is revival possible with Pastors, number 4 on the list, in charge? Is the church too inward focused? And if so, how do we change this?

Pastor's serve a congregation along side of elected elders and deacons and in many cases belong to a Synod. The local church counsel made up of pastor, elders, deacons determine how to direct funds of their own congregations. But it's more complex than this because there may be debt for bldg, salaries, etc. At the Synod level which is also funded by it's churches, one finds many pastors and representatives who in these Synod affairs determine how funds are distributed and this includes world-wide evangelism and mission money.
Money in this way goes to world-wide evangelism. Individual churches also generally have their own evangelism programs.
So, it's being done...you may not like the outcome of proportional distribution however. One reason evangelism may be "underfunded" is debt for church buildings...rightly or wrongly so.But yes, I believe we are attempting to accomplish the evangelism goal. Pray for spiritually gifted men to to be lifted up and lead

 

[Postvieww]

I believe missionaries are the closest thing we have to Apostles,

I agree but I will go just a step further. I believe they are not just close but many are Apostles. Why does the church have such aversion to this title? They same applies the prophet many will draw back if someone is called a prophet but have no issue with pastor, teacher, evangelist, elder, deacon or bishop. God set all of the in the church but for some reason some men have chosen to remove at least two of them