Are we born spiritually alive or spiritually dead? What is your Scriptural justification for that?

[fhansen]

God created Adam sinless. Because Adam had no laws to break. But when God gave Adam the law, he wanted to break it or he would not have. So God judged us as a law breaking species who want to break laws when exposed to them.

Ok, so God didn't know we were law-breaking species before He created man? Or He created man as a law-breaker, then blamed him for breaking the law? I agree in any case that Adam wanted-or willed-to break the law. Just not 100% sure why.

But in any case I believe that Adam's purpose-and ours- here on this earth is to learn how and why not to break the law-by first of all gaining the wisdom to understand our need for God. The first sin was simply an act of disobedience of God. But all another sin flowed from that first one because, with that act, man effectively became his own "god", doing what was right in his own eyes, determining his own morality. Man's first right step now is to find his way back to God, only possible with the help of grace; man cannot reach up unless God reaches down first.

 

[com7fy8]

I think "dead" means especially how we were love-dead > selfish and mainly concerned about our own selves and how things were going for us and ones we wanted to use. God makes us alive in His love which makes us all-loving and "life-giving" like Jesus > 1 Corinthians 15:45, 1 John 4:17.

So, if I understand you correctly, you believe we are born spiritually alive, but separated from God? And, by being separated from God, we are considered "dead", though we aren't really dead? Is that correct?

Well . . . I think of "spiritually alive" to mean alive the way God's love makes us alive.

So, if this is my definition, Johnny, then I consider a person born in sin to be dead spiritually. And Paul does say we without Jesus were "dead" in our sinning. And Jesus says He is the "life". And this has to do with how God's love makes us alive like Him > 1 John 4:17.

And so, yes, if someone is not alive in God's love, this is because the person is not spiritually "joined" (1 Corinthians 6:17) to God, so he or she is sharing in the eternal love life of Jesus, like Paul did and we can > Galatians 2:20.

So, in case someone is separated from God, the person is not alive in His love. But at a lower level, yes we could say the person is alive . . . being conscious and moving; but this is not alive in God's love.

And there are plenty of things which a person can consciously experience, which are love-dead > such as unforgiveness, nasty anger which is uncaring, dominating drives for pleasure which can not deeply satisfy a person, frustration, and others. But God's love converts us into gentle and quiet sweetly sensitive sharing with God and one another in this love. So, there is family sharing, versus sin's isolation and just using people.

So, you could say a person in that nasty negative stuff is alive, but that is not in the eternal love life which we have in sharing with Jesus, even now, and we grow in this, then get resurrected into the fullness of this.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

If we are not born with living spirits at all, then abortion is not a sin.

I believe we are born with spirits that are essentially "comatose," not in the same lively degree of communication with our minds as our bodies are from birth. Of course, the ancients would not have known the concept of a long-term "coma" because in their time "coma" became "dead" really quickly.

I believe our spirits are "awakened," when the Holy Spirit abides within us. But having been so long comatose, our spirits require a great deal of nourishment and exercise to become fully effective.

​

Right, that's essentially what I (I think I) said. That our spirits need to become awakened to God.

This is why I am concerned that dead/living as a distinction is problematic. Good point on abortion, which could be extended to infanticide or even killing older children - if they could be legitimately argued to have no "living spirit" anyway. God forbid.

Two things:

(1) I am inclined to agree with something Hillsage said to me. If we were born with a spirit, then when the Holy Spirit wakes us up, it wouldn't resemble what Jesus said in John 3:5-7 to Nicodemus: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said to you that you must be born again." Instead, as Hillsage said, it would be that our spirit is resurrected. But, Jesus was very clear that we have to be born of the flesh and born of the Spirit. In contrast, Jesus never talks about our soul being born only destroyed. When Jesus presents the story of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man's spirit was never made alive, so if his flesh is dead, how is he sensing the discomfort/torment that he is in?

(2) The more concerning point for me is this idea that it isn't murder to kill an unborn infant because they don't have a spirit. If I follow that line of thinking, I would have to say that it would be okay to murder an unbeliever, because they don't either. But, God looks at hearts--before the Holy Spirit regenerates a man. There is something within a man that isn't spirit, but isn't body. That is the soul. Jesus said "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matt 10:28) Please note, that Jesus said nothing about spirit in that section, probably because the one who is cast there doesn't have a spirit.

The greek word used was psuche as opposed to pneuma--used in John 3:6. As pointed out in another post, there are 5 times that both soul and spirit are used in the New Testament: psuche and pneuma are the words used, respectively.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Well . . . I think of "spiritually alive" to mean alive the way God's love makes us alive.

So, if this is my definition, Johnny, then I consider a person born in sin to be dead spiritually. And Paul does say we without Jesus were "dead" in our sinning. And Jesus says He is the "life". And this has to do with how God's love makes us alive like Him > 1 John 4:17.

And so, yes, if someone is not alive in God's love, this is because the person is not spiritually "joined" (1 Corinthians 6:17) to God, so he or she is sharing in the eternal love life of Jesus, like Paul did and we can > Galatians 2:20.

So, in case someone is separated from God, the person is not alive in His love. But at a lower level, yes we could say the person is alive . . . being conscious and moving; but this is not alive in God's love.

And there are plenty of things which a person can consciously experience, which are love-dead > such as unforgiveness, nasty anger which is uncaring, dominating drives for pleasure which can not deeply satisfy a person, frustration, and others. But God's love converts us into gentle and quiet sweetly sensitive sharing with God and one another in this love. So, there is family sharing, versus sin's isolation and just using people.

So, you could say a person in that nasty negative stuff is alive, but that is not in the eternal love life which we have in sharing with Jesus, even now, and we grow in this, then get resurrected into the fullness of this.

Thanks for clarifying what your thoughts are.

The deeper God takes me into this, the more I am becoming convinced that God made us as eternal beings--just like the angels. While our body is temporal, our souls are eternal. I believe this because even those who aren't born again are still reported as having consciousness by Jesus (the rich man and Lazarus). For them, that couldn't be their spirit, because they were never "born of the Spirit." (per John 3:5-6) And, those souls, like the rich man, who are never born of the Spirit will be consigned to the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:15), with a vast spectrum of entities including satan and his angels, the beast, the false prophet, (Rev 20:10) death and the grave/sheol. (Rev 20:14)

Given what Paul says in 1 Thes 5:23, the birth of the spirit by the Spirit doesn't overtake the soul, it becomes a third part of us. And when we are resurrected, we will have a resurrected body housing that soul and spirit. Hebrews 10:39 seems to confirm that the soul following the spirit will be preserved.

​

 

[Dave L]

Ok, so God didn't know we were law-breaking species before He created man? Or He created man as a law-breaker, then blamed him for breaking the law? I agree in any case that Adam wanted-or willed-to break the law. Just not 100% sure why.

But in any case I believe that Adam's purpose-and ours- here on this earth is to learn how and why not to break the law-by first of all gaining the wisdom to understand our need for God. The first sin was simply an act of disobedience of God. But all another sin flowed from that first one because, with that act, man effectively became his own "god", doing what was right in his own eyes, determining his own morality. Man's first right step now is to find his way back to God, only possible with the help of grace; man cannot reach up unless God reaches down first.

Thanks for your thoughts. I believe Paul gives the reason why God created in Ephesians.

“Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:” (Ephesians 3:8–11)

So if you look at all involved in our sin and salvation, it becomes a backdrop to reveal God's mercy, grace, love in our salvation. And it reveals his goodness, righteousness, and sovereignty in the damnation of sinners. Apart from sin God's attributes would remain hidden.

Getting back to your first point, I believe God created Adam as our test model, who under the best conditions failed, But since Adam wanted to sin, he incurred the guilt. But God had a higher purpose creating Adam knowing he would sin.