Are we born spiritually alive or spiritually dead? What is your Scriptural justification for that?

[Albion]

“So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned—” (Romans 5:12)

How did all sin in Adam?

We are all the descendants of Adam and Eve and have inherited a nature that was affected by their sin. Remember that the consequence of that sin (called "original sin" sometimes) was to have to work for a living, suffer physical death, bear children in pain, and so on. We also are, by nature, estranged from God. That's the meaning of sin. Fortunately, we also have the promise of a way out of that situation--a Savior.

 

[Dave L]

We are all the descendants of Adam and Eve and have inherited a nature that was affected by their sin. Remember that the consequence of that sin (called "original sin" sometimes) was to have to work for a living, suffer physical death, bear children in pain, and so on. We also are, by nature, estranged from God. That's the meaning of sin. Fortunately, we also have the promise of a way out of that situation--a Savior.

What I was calling attention to is God punishing Adam's offspring without first finding them guilty too. I believe Paul answers this by saying “for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.” (Romans 5:19)

In sampling the product so to speak, all were considered (constituted) defective.

 

[Halbhh]

Love it, except, that gives the impression that the older brother never dies, is born an heir, and never departs from being an heir. Is there such a thing in humanity? Or does the older brother represent angels, then?

interesting possibility (If possible extra meaning). The basic meaning i took was that the older brother is just a long time Christian who wrongly resents the wonderful gifts given to the new convert or returned prodigal.

 

[twin.spin]

Scriptures teach spiritually dead.

John 3:6
"Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."​

It is because of this "flesh" that we are by nature born into, Scriptures teach:

Romans 8:6-7
The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.​

 

[dqhall]

Are we born spiritually alive or spiritually dead? What is your Scriptural justification for that?

The strongest claim I can find for being born spiritually dead is what Jesus says to Nicodemus:

"Verily, Verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto you that you must be born again." (John 3:5-6)

"He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, to them He gave power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His Name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man; but of God." (John 1:11-13)

The closest Paul comes to saying something similar is Ephesians 2:1: "And he has quickened you who were dead in trespasses and sins."

Some people talked about becoming saved. They had to repent of their sins. One who was drunk must become sober. One who was reckless and destructive must no longer wreck and destroy. One who was dishonest and did not know the truth must learn knowledge and not lie. This is repentance, reformation, and enlightenment.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Are we born spiritually alive or spiritually dead? What is your Scriptural justification for that?
The strongest claim I can find for being born spiritually dead is what Jesus says to Nicodemus: "Verily, Verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto you that you must be born again." (John 3:5-6)..............

What Jesus said to Nicodemus in this passage is probably all we need to agree with and understand the doctrine.

The fact that Jesus chided Nicodemus for not understanding one of the most basic doctrines in the scripture should give us in the Church pause - because we have the Spirit of God in a way Nicodemus didn't and are doubly without excuse.

On the day that Adan sinned - he died. God said so. He obviously did not die physically. He must therefore have died spiritually and we see the result in his dead condition shortly after the sinning took place.

Nicodemus, as a major teacher of Israel, should have understood that men are in need of a new birth. As Jesus might well have said, "Holy cow Nic - this is rather basic stuff for a teacher of the scriptures isn't it?"

We are in Adam as we are born with a sinful nature and therefore we are spiritually dead - Duhh!

I suppose one could argue that we "become" spiritually dead when we actually sin and not before (based on Romans 7:9). That would allow for infants going to Heaven without actually hearing and "believing" the gospel - even though, salvation being by grace, God can and does regenerate anyone He pleases, infant or otherwise.

In like manner - we should consider what God considers "dead". If He means by the term, a separation from Himself - one could argue that even born again Christian "die" when they sin, and be correct in so doing. So long as we don't, in affirming that concept, deny the eternal sealing and security of those born again and thereby enter into believing and teaching a gospel of works - speaking of spiritual death in that way is probably correct.

But, putting those things aside, the effect for anyone who can read this discussion is the same since we all sin pretty early on.

Jesus was apparently appalled that a major teacher of His people would be so ignorant of this most basic of concepts.

How much more is He appalled that some of those with His Spirit to guide them into all truth and who stand as teachers of His people in this age of grace should be equally as ignorant as was Nicodemus.

Jesus' likening the manner of the new birth to natural physical birth should also give us enough information to understand salvation by grace through faith.

One who has been generated in secret physically by His earthly father- in due time enters into this world and begins his physical life in the kingdom of this world.

In like manner one who has been generated spiritually by His Heavenly Father in secret by grace, enters into the Kingdom of God in due time when He partakes of the Word of God - as we are told by Peter.

This isn't really spiritual rocket science.

The only reason some argue against the simple concepts spelled out by Jesus for us is that they rebel against the concept of salvation by grace which is the natural consequential doctrine for us to believe based on the teaching of the Lord in this passage.

 

[bcbsr]

Are we born spiritually alive or spiritually dead? What is your Scriptural justification for that?

The strongest claim I can find for being born spiritually dead is what Jesus says to Nicodemus:

"Verily, Verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto you that you must be born again." (John 3:5-6)

"He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, to them He gave power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His Name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man; but of God." (John 1:11-13)

The closest Paul comes to saying something similar is Ephesians 2:1: "And he has quickened you who were dead in trespasses and sins."

What do you mean by "spiritually dead"?

For example, Paul writes, "I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." Rom 7:9

Does that answer your question?

 

[fhansen]

Are we born spiritually alive or spiritually dead? What is your Scriptural justification for that?

The strongest claim I can find for being born spiritually dead is what Jesus says to Nicodemus:

"Verily, Verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto you that you must be born again." (John 3:5-6)

"He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, to them He gave power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His Name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man; but of God." (John 1:11-13)

The closest Paul comes to saying something similar is Ephesians 2:1: "And he has quickened you who were dead in trespasses and sins."

Adam, essentially, broke communion with God, 'apart from whom we can do nothing' John 15:5, but "with whom all things are possible", Matt 19:26.

Man was made for communion with God. His ultimate peace, moral integrity, happiness, and life are bound to and dependent on this relationship. Without it he's "dead", and this death is the very reason that we observe and experience so much lack of peace, moral integrity, happiness and "life". Death: corruption, negativity, sin-evil-to a large degree reign in our world, unlike Eden, unlike God's original intention for man IOW.

So the unnatural condition of evil that prevails here is proof that man is spiritually dead and the name often used for this state of death or "apartness" from God is "Original sin". The very first right step for man is not to pretend that he's already just and good and moral but rather our purpose here first of all is to get back with God, to be reconciled with Him, from and through whom our justice or righteousness flows. IOW man cannot be just- who he was meant to be-while independent or autonomous from God. And, in the back of our minds, don't we continue to question this very truth? And everything that Jesus said and did from His birth to His death and resurrection is aimed at this reconciliation.

 

[Hillsage]

So then you believe we are two part beings (body & soul) until we are born again by God, then we become three part beings?

No I do not believe that. We are a triune being ‘before our first breath’ or we will never draw a first breath.

And, if so, do you believe the soul is eternal, then (since from death to the resurrection of judgment something of the person must be "living" on and then after the judgment something must be living on to be sent to the lake of fire to either be destroyed or suffer torment eternally)?

No the soul is not eternal according to scripture. In Matthew 10:28, the only ‘part’ of triune man missing in this verse is the ‘spirit’. I think that agrees with my belief that all spirits are eternal and cannot die. At death your “spirit returns to the Father from whence it came” your soul enters into sleep until the awakening day of its judgment, based upon all the things done with the flesh at the soul’s command. The good things will receive receive rewards for for heaven. The bad things done will be purged as it is “saved, yet though as by fire” 1 Cor 3:13-15.

 

[royal priest]

Are we born spiritually alive or spiritually dead? What is your Scriptural justification for that?

The strongest claim I can find for being born spiritually dead is what Jesus says to Nicodemus:

"Verily, Verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto you that you must be born again." (John 3:5-6)

"He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, to them He gave power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His Name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man; but of God." (John 1:11-13)

The closest Paul comes to saying something similar is Ephesians 2:1: "And he has quickened you who were dead in trespasses and sins."

A classic read, if you have the opportunity. Written by puritan Thomas Boston:
https://www.biblesnet.com/Thomas Boston Human Nature in its Fourfold State.pdf

 

[fhansen]

What I was calling attention to is God punishing Adam's offspring without first finding them guilty too. I believe Paul answers this by saying “for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.” (Romans 5:19)

In sampling the product so to speak, all were considered (constituted) defective.

So that would mean that God made defective-and therefore, presumably, blameless- beings in man's case?

 

[Dave L]

So that would mean that God made defective-and therefore, presumably, blameless- beings in man's case?

This did not happen. “Behold, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many devices.” (Ecclesiastes 7:29)

 

[fhansen]

This did not happen. “Behold, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many devices.” (Ecclesiastes 7:29)

I'm not sure we can have it both ways, though. Either they were created defective, or somehow non-defective beings made themselves defective???

 

[Dave L]

I'm not sure we can have it both ways, though. Either they were created defective, or somehow non-defective beings made themselves defective???

God created Adam upright, but placed us under his wrath and its consequences after Adam sinned. We, having been judged guilty in Adam, as a corrupt species.

 

[RDKirk]

I understand.

I actually didn't directly answer your question because I'm not so sure it's a helpful or accurate way to frame it. (I'm not criticizing you - it's just that often the words we use seem to cause confusion between us.)

So I'm not sure if "spiritually dead" or "spiritually alive" would mean the same thing to two people who discussed it with each other.

The spirit needs to be "awakened" at some point and put in some kind of communion with God. (Only possible through Christ of course.) But I don't believe that God condemns infants who never have that chance.

If we are not born with living spirits at all, then abortion is not a sin.

I believe we are born with spirits that are essentially "comatose," not in the same lively degree of communication with our minds as our bodies are from birth. Of course, the ancients would not have known the concept of a long-term "coma" because in their time "coma" became "dead" really quickly.

I believe our spirits are "awakened," when the Holy Spirit abides within us. But having been so long comatose, our spirits require a great deal of nourishment and exercise to become fully effective.

 

[fhansen]

God created Adam upright, but placed us under his wrath and its consequences after Adam sinned. We, having been judged guilty in Adam, as a corrupt species.

Well then we can start with Adam. How did an upright being being sin to begin with, corrupting his descendants in the process? Was Adam defective?

 

[Dave L]

Well then we can start with Adam. How did an upright being being sin to begin with, corrupting his descendants in the process? Was Adam defective?

No, but under the best of conditions, Adam sinned proving we are a defective species.

 

[~Anastasia~]

If we are not born with living spirits at all, then abortion is not a sin.

I believe we are born with spirits that are essentially "comatose," not in the same lively degree of communication with our minds as our bodies are from birth. Of course, the ancients would not have known the concept of a long-term "coma" because in their time "coma" became "dead" really quickly.

I believe our spirits are "awakened," when the Holy Spirit abides within us. But having been so long comatose, our spirits require a great deal of nourishment and exercise to become fully effective.

Right, that's essentially what I (I think I) said. That our spirits need to become awakened to God.

This is why I am concerned that dead/living as a distinction is problematic. Good point on abortion, which could be extended to infanticide or even killing older children - if they could be legitimately argued to have no "living spirit" anyway. God forbid.

 

[fhansen]

No, but under the best of conditions, Adam sinned proving we are a defective species.

Ok, but Adam was a member of that species...so, did God create the species defective? It's a legitimate question to ask. IMO the truth has to do with God's overall plan for man. Man must know that he's not God first of all, and therefore incapable of having any life at all without Him, in order for man to be transformed into God's image by God. That's the understanding that Adam lacked; and that's the wisdom that he and we, his descendants, need to learn first of all, so that we may turn back to Him again as He informs us and draws us to Himself, as He's revealed to us IOW, humanity having lost the "knowledge of God" through Adam as Adam essentially dismissed that knowledge by placing himself on God's level.

Adam's "defect" was simply that he wasn't God. God can't create another God. So giving free will to man was a potentially explosive mix, but one God deemed worthy nonetheless, knowing the beginning from the end, knowing that He would ultimately bring even greater good out of the evil that resulted from the Fall of man. Man must learn his place. This life is a sort of school, for one thing, where that lesson can be learned with the help of revelation and grace. To the degree that we learn it, we approach truth and justice- we become justified- all the more by that very fact. That's the beginning of faith: God exists; man is not God.

 

[Dave L]

Ok, but Adam was a member of that species...so, did God create the species defective? It's a legitimate question to ask. IMO the truth has to do with God's overall plan for man. Man must know that he's not God first of all, and therefore incapable of having any life at all without Him, in order for man to be transformed into God's image by God. That's the understanding that Adam lacked; and that's the wisdom that he and we, his descendants, need to learn first of all, so that we may turn back to Him again as He informs us and draws us to Himself, as He's revealed to us IOW, humanity having lost the "knowledge of God" through Adam as Adam essentially dismissed that knowledge by placing himself on God's level.

Adam's "defect" was simply that he wasn't God. God can't create another God. So giving free will to man was a potentially explosive mix, but one God deemed worthy nonetheless, knowing the beginning from the end, knowing that He would ultimately bring even greater good out of the evil that resulted from the Fall of man. Man must learn his place. This life is a sort of school, for one thing, where that lesson can be learned with the help of revelation and grace. To the degree that we learn it, we approach truth and justice- we become justified- all the more by that very fact. That's the beginning of faith: God exists; man is not God.

God created Adam sinless. Because Adam had no laws to break. But when God gave Adam the law, he wanted to break it or he would not have. So God judged us as a law breaking species who want to break laws when exposed to them.